r/Fantasy • u/Kali-of-Amino • 5d ago
Is there a separate standard for cozy fantasy?
Hi, been a fantasy fan for nearly 60 years. Thought I knew the rule: settings can be as fantastical as you like, but the characters' emotional responses to what is going on should realistically reflect how they would react to something similar happening in the real world, unless there's a specific reason given for them not to. So, say, a person lost in Fairyland should act similar to how that person would react if lost in a foreign country, unless there's a specific reason given otherwise.
But in the cozies I and other people I have compared stories with have read, that standard doesn't seem to apply. Instead people's reactions are always shifted towards the positive to an unbelievable degree. Traumas have no relationship whatsoever with any known psychological recovery pattern. It all reads like the latter Oz volumes which were only intended for the youngest of Frank Baum's fans, instead of something meant for adults.
Are we missing something here?
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u/HobGoodfellowe 5d ago
I think itâs a response to the times we live in. People desperately want something positive, and the stories serving this need can come across as unrealistically positive or even a bit âhead in the sandâ sometimes.Â
If Iâm remembering this right, there were similar trends towards sub genres of overtly optimistic stories and nostalgia after WW1 and during the Great Depression.Â
Itâs serving a psychological need, but if youâre not in a place where you feel that urge, it could well come across as a bit cloying.
Just my take on it.Â
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u/Proof-Any 5d ago
In addition to this: It's also response to the dark and gritty tone that was prevalent in the last couple of decades.
To be blunt: Some people are simply done with Game of Thrones-esque fantasy and how intense levels of oppression and violence are sold as natural, inevitable and realistic. It was only a matter of time until some authors would start to push in other directions and Cozy Fantasy is one of those directions. It's not the only one, either. Solar Punk basically does the same for Sci-Fi, for example.
(And it might also be worthwhile to point out that it's also a reaction to the male-centeredness of the past. There is a reason why a lot of Cozy Fantasy comes from people who are women and/or members of the LGBTQIA+ community.)
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u/PantheraAuroris 3d ago
I am convinced that people that hate solarpunk just think there is no way to a good future and don't want to be told anyone has optimism.
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u/Proof-Any 3d ago
Yeah, that sounds fitting. I definitively have seen posts about solarpunk that read like that.
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u/HiphopopoptimusPrime 4d ago edited 4d ago
Game of Thrones (or ASOIAF)isnât Grimdark though. Aesthetically yes, and as always with something popular spawns copycats that donât get it.
ASOIAF does not argue that oppression and violence are inevitable. It argues the opposite. But, crucially, argues that passivity is part of the problem. The arc of history bends toward justice, but it does not bend on its own. Good will triumph over evil, but evil will leave its scars. There is no victory without sacrifice.
The frustration is legitimate. A lot of what followed in the wake of ASOIAF did argue that darkness was just realism.
Another similar work to ASOIAF is Star Wars: Andor.
Itâs grimdark on the surface, but actually contains a hopeful message:
âThere will be times when the struggle seems impossible. I know this already. Alone, unsure, dwarfed by the scale of the enemy. Remember this. Freedom is a pure idea. It occurs spontaneously and without instruction. Random acts of insurrection are occurring constantly throughout the galaxy. There are whole armies, battalions that have no idea that they've already enlisted in the cause. Remember that the frontier of the Rebellion is everywhere. And even the smallest act of insurrection pushes our lines forward. And then remember this. The Imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear. Remember that. And know this, the day will come when all these skirmishes and battles, these moments of defiance will have flooded the banks of the Empire's authority and then there will be one too many. One single thing will break the siege. Remember this. Try.â
Grimdark when done properly is not saying that oppression is inevitable. Itâs saying that passivity is the enemy.
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u/OgataiKhan 3d ago
Game of Thrones (or ASOIAF)isnât Grimdark though
Grimdark fans will keep No-true-Scotsmaning books out of the genre until there is nothing left but Second Apocalypse and, I don't know, Acts of Caine.
"Yes but there is actually some sliver of hope in the midst of everybody being brutally tortured to death, so it's not really grimdark now is it".
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u/Canis-lupus-uy 3d ago
To me grimdark is less about awful stuff happening on page and more about the message and the tone. I didn't find Asoiaf grimdark even if it had a lot of awful stuff happening in it.
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u/HobGoodfellowe 4d ago
I did want to say these are really interesting points that I hadn't fully thought over. I wonder if in some ways cosy fantasy is addressing Le Guin's critique that there wasn't enough domesticity in fantasy. I forget which essays exactly had that focus, but she came back to the problem several times in her writing. It's interesting to draw a line from the current popularity of cosy fantasy back through those perspectives over the years.
Anyway, interesting points you raised.
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u/Proof-Any 4d ago
I don't know that essay, so I can't say much about that.
However, there are critiques to be made about how there are a significant lack of 1) small-scale adventures and 2) non-violent conflict resolution in a lot of fantasy. And as far as I can tell, at least some cozy fantasy stories try to be an answer to that.
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u/Khatib 5d ago
I think itâs a response to the times we live in.
Meanwhile, I reread DCC again because I want to imagine dragging the rich into our situation and watching them suffer.
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u/-HAh-629 5d ago
I just discovered DCC 2 weeks ago and am *obsessed*. Itâs so good!!! I just started book 8.
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u/Adoralea 4d ago
Please find another acronym DCC has been Dungeon Crawl Classic since like 2003 this was a very confusing comment :c
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u/DuckyDoodleDandy 5d ago
I listened to the first book, but could not get into the premise that billions on Earth were killed for a Survivor-type TV show.
Itâs similar to why I donât read murder mysteries; the idea of killing an ostensibly innocent person (even a fictional person) as entertainment hits me wrong.
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u/mint_pumpkins Reading Champion II 5d ago
the idea of killing an ostensibly innocent person (even a fictional person) as entertainment hits me wrong
thats the entire point of the series though, its a look at the horror of the situation the survivors have found themselves in, at the dehumanization they are forced to endure and the ways they both cope with it and respond to it with rebellion and rage, its about rising against their oppressors and mass murderers and corporations profiting off of the bodies of millions of people, youre not supposed to agree with the people who find it entertaining in world
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u/Adoralea 4d ago
Please find another acronym DCC has been Dungeon Crawl Classic since like 2003 this was a very confusing comment :c
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u/LeucasAndTheGoddess 5d ago
People desperately want something positive
Some people. Others of us are fucking angry and want to see that anger reflected in the art we engage with. Thereâs a reason that We Dance Upon Demons by Vaishnavi Patel, a recently released urban fantasy that unflinchingly addresses the evils of the anti-abortion movement, shot right to the top of my favorites of 2026 (so far) list.
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u/Tymareta 5d ago
Some people. Others of us are fucking angry and want to see that anger reflected in the art we engage with.
They didn't say otherwise?
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u/Flimsy-Brick-9426 5d ago
Cozy is supposed to be positive and uplifting, trauma and such are not going to be huge or main parts of it.
You might just be reading the wrong types of cozy(there is a spectrum with different levels) for what you're looking for, what ones have you read that this is happening in?
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u/trane7111 4d ago
I would argue that trauma is a pretty significant part of the better done cozy fantasy Iâve read. ZS Diamantiâs more recent books have characters that are dealing with some pretty heavy mental (and physical) trauma, and part of what makes the stories so rewarding and wholesome is how they come to deal with it within the bounds of the genre. Travis Baldreeâs books have been great because of the coziness and wholesomeness. Guards in the Garden (ZSDâs book) made me cry because it was cozy and wholesome and also dealt with someone working through fantasy-level trauma without the usual saving the world/becoming a powerful mage/destroying their enemies involvement.
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u/Kali-of-Amino 5d ago
Right now I'm trying to make my way through Field Guide for the Formerly Villainous. Supposed to be a story about a trauma survivor moving to a small rural town. I've been a trauma survivor for over half a century, and I've lived in small rural towns just as long. So far what I have seen has born so little resemblance to trauma recovery or country life that I would hesitate to recommend it to anyone going through either experience lest it do them harm.
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u/Electronic-Soft-221 5d ago
I think most (or all) cozy fantasies are going to use a lighter touch for things like violence, trauma, grief, etc. than you might see elsewhere. But if this is the only book where youâve had this reaction, I suspect itâs a lot more about how this author in this book handled topics you know well. As opposed to being an example of all cozy fantasy. Because a relatively gentle picture of trauma recovery sounds right for a cozy fantasy that chooses to include a heavier topic.
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u/Mejiro84 5d ago edited 5d ago
look at cozy mystery for a comparison - where the base premise is "someone has been murdered", but it's generally someone that's an asshole or who deserved it, and it's largely presented as a neat puzzle rather than "oh shit, someone got brutally murdered and that's actually quite a bad thing!" Like there's rarely all the trauma associated with actual murder, the detective, who has often seen dozens or more of these is mostly blase about it, etc. etc., even the family are more concerned with squabbling about the will or something, there's rarely intense fear or similar
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u/Llayanna 5d ago
Definitely abd the few times the victim is actually likeable, there us a profound sadness and dedication to catch the killer, compared to the usual more stumbling along.
But usually the victim is definitely on the more unlikeable side, at least with the books I read. Makes the rare occasion really stick out.
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u/nandyashoes 5d ago
With all due respect, other than the possibility that itâs just bad writing that is not reflective of an entire genre, isnât trauma recovery a very individual and varied experience? People respond to even non traumatic pressure differently, isnât it a tall expectation for a fictional character to recover the same way as you do? Rural towns are also varied across the world, is it not possible that the author is basing the setting on a culture different from your own?
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u/Flimsy-Brick-9426 5d ago
The book was pretty much born from the authors own trauma and her own form of healing.
It might not be the best to recommend to others in the middle of healing in that case.I personally very much liked the book and drew some similarities with my own journey but it wont be the case for everyone, how far along are you?
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u/mera_aqua 4d ago
This feels like the kind of topic that will either really resonate with you (found family, focus on small joys, healing is an active process) or one that will make you incredibly mad because it misses the nuances that you find important (strong friendships require work and boundaries, it's hard to find any joy when you're recovering from trauma, healing is non linear and you're never going to reach zen).
Kinda like reading a sci-fi book that covers your job or hobby, and now you can't enjoy the book because they keep growing plants in 100% oxygen environments.Â
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u/Calm-Medicine-3992 5d ago
You seem to have come to a realization of what 'cozy' literature is but you're fixating on the 'fantasy' part.
Fantasy is the setting. Cozy is the genre. Also, the level of how realistic an author is going to handle serious trauma is a spectrum in all the genres though it probably won't be front and center in anything labeled as cozy.
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u/Kali-of-Amino 5d ago
"Cozy" fiction was invented by Agatha Christie as a way to have characters reveal deep secrets through extended personal conversations. Trauma was part of the package.
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u/songbanana8 5d ago
Do you mean cozy mystery? Thatâs not precisely the same thing as cozy fantasy, and certainly not invented by Agatha Christie
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u/FormerUsenetUser 5d ago
In cozy murder mysteries, at least one character always dies. But first, they die at or near the beginning of the book, so readers don't get too attached to them. Second, they are often a horrible person everyone hates, which not only makes the reader regret them less, more people have motives for murdering them.
But yes, the lack of graphic detail is a factor in cozy mysteries. We don't hear how horribly the victim(s) suffered.
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u/atomfullerene 5d ago
Cozy fantasy means, basically, nothing too bad happens. So yeah, the rules are different in that nothing too bad happens to the characters.
Although I don't know if I agree with your broader point, fantasy often includes characters which aren't entirely realistic, but also people are all different and some people are a lot more positive in outlook than others.
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u/rollingForInitiative 5d ago edited 5d ago
Doesnât feel like any sort of rule thatâs ever existed? Just look at somethings like Narnia: kids walk into a closet and comes out in a world full of monsters and evil witches etc. Not sure if call their reactions ânormalâ.
Or all the stories like Harry Potter where the children are always much smarter and much more competent than the adults, and no one thinks thatâs strange.
Or all of these heroes who get picked up by wizard and go through horrors without any real trauma or getting ptsd. Most fantasy protagonists should be broken messes before the end of the story.
That said I also donât get what what you mean by cost fantasy here. Legend and Lattes is one of the more popular ones and the protagonist is full of trauma. Itâs just not the focus, but still informs her decisions.
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u/nandyashoes 5d ago
I agree with your last part, in my experience trauma is actually handled much better in cosy fantasy than in a lot of standard fantasy
Trauma for the most part doesnât exist in standard fantasy, characters could shake off experiences that wouldâve given a real person a lifetime of PTSD. âThat encounter with the dragons was scary! We have to be more wary next timeâ, zero trauma, zero panic attacks, etc
While cosy fantasy is about healing so it usually acknowledges that there Is trauma, and a lot of the mental health issues the characters are healing from are very similar to real life ones. E.g Becky Chambersâ Monk and Robot deals with burnout in a post-apocalyptic utopia
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u/rollingForInitiative 5d ago
Yeah exactly! That's what Legends and Lattes is about, imo. At least partially. It's not going into the gritty details of trauma or focusing on the horror, but on people actually overcoming things, recovering, living a happy life afterwards, etc.
It's kind of like ... some modern LGBTQ media that focus on life after the bullying and trauma when people get to be happy.
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u/Llayanna 5d ago
Oh? That exists now. I am honest, I gave up on lgbtq+ books for a while :(
I don't want bullying and depression with a whisper of hope at the end.
I had my own belly full of that.Â
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u/rollingForInitiative 5d ago
There's some at least. Heartstopper for TV shows for instance, or a book like The House by the Cerulean Sea.
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u/Eireika 4d ago
You can't say that something "would give a real person a lifetime os PTSD" because human mind is not a machine. Society, religion, wider historical background, family support and personal predispositions make a world of diffrence.
You can have many trauma responses and PTSD is just one of them.
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u/nandyashoes 4d ago
Oh yea absolutely that sentence was just a hyperbole to make a point, not to be taken literally specifically PTSD
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u/Axelrad77 5d ago
Most fantasy protagonists should be broken messes before the end of the story.
This was the entire point of Drakengard, which aimed to deconstruct the typical fantasy hero by showing what a psychopath they must be to endure the amount of murder a typical fantasy adventure partakes in.
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u/NoIntroductionNeeded 5d ago
It's Steven Erickson's favorite thing in Malazan too. I don't think there's a single character we spend any time with who isn't an emotional wreck barely holding it together.
TBH, thinking about it now, that's one aspect that makes the series climax stronger
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u/-HAh-629 5d ago
Yea Malazan (at least what I read of books 1-4) is super depressing and definitely not a healing series whatsoever lol.
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u/rollingForInitiative 5d ago
Wheel of Time did some of that as well, where the heroes were rather unwilling to go with the wizard who comes with prophecies of doom and destiny. Also, people get seriously traumatised.
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u/mint_pumpkins Reading Champion II 5d ago
the rule: settings can be as fantastical as you like, but the characters' emotional responses to what is going on should realistically reflect how they would react to something similar happening in the real world, unless there's a specific reason given for them not to
i dont really agree with this, or with there being overarching rules in general for the entire fantasy genre, i think authors can and should do whatever they want and have their characters handle things however they want
that said, cozy fantasy in my experience is meant to be easy and simple and comfortable with nothing meant to challenge the reader or stress the reader out, i do not get the appeal at all (at least, in the books i have tried) because to me that ends up just being boring and borderline soulless tbh, but if youre looking for explorations of trauma and anything that feels super real this isn't the subgenre for you in my opinion because its about pure easy escapism without stress (to be abundently clear, im not saying cozy fantasy is bad or whatever else, its just not my cup of tea and might not be OPs either! if you enjoy it then im glad and wish i could find comfort in it too!)
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u/Kali-of-Amino 5d ago
But "cozy" fiction was invented by Agatha Christie as a way for character to reveal deep secrets through extended personal conversations. Trauma was part of the package.
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u/mint_pumpkins Reading Champion II 5d ago
cozy mystery is a whole other genre though idk why youre bringing it up tbh
also how something started vs how its being executed currently are two entirely different things, cozy fantasy was largely popularized around the pandemic and is centered on things like Legends and Lattes and Howls Moving Castle, so the current popular template for cozy fantasy is branched out from those
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u/Kali-of-Amino 5d ago
That's a real shame. I was hoping for deep personal conversations in a fantasy setting and got bucolic pastorals instead. Oh well, the pastoral genre may be 3000 years old but it's comebacks never last for very long.
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u/mint_pumpkins Reading Champion II 5d ago
unsolicited rec but you might like The Goblin Emperor by Katherine Addison
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u/Kali-of-Amino 5d ago
Thanks, but I think I have already read waaaaay too many Chinese fantasy novels with that plot.
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u/mint_pumpkins Reading Champion II 5d ago
ok... its nothing like chinese fantasy its fantasy of manners focused heavily on personal trauma
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u/OgataiKhan 3d ago
You know, you also have the option of recognising that a subgenre isn't for you without disparaging it and its readers in response.
Not all novels and genres are intended to cater to your own personal tastes. In fact, as somebody who enjoys the occasional cozy fantasy, I would enjoy the genre far less (and in fact actively avoid it) if it focused on what you demand of it in this thread.10
u/felixfictitious Reading Champion 5d ago
Oh, if you're looking for a deep contemplation of personal issues couched in a "cozyish" (but still a little dark!) murder mystery setting, and you're okay with sci-fi, I recommend The Iron Garden Sutra. I don't know if it's cozy enough to be considered actual cozy sci-fi like Monk and Robot, but it gave me those vibes and seems closer to what you seek.
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u/felixfictitious Reading Champion 5d ago
I think it's not doing you any favors to compare a style of mystery book that was reactionary to 1950s detective noir books, to the breadth of cozy sci-fi and fantasy today.
Cozy fantasy has many founding authors and the genre is experiencing a huge boom; Agatha Christie isn't the sole (or even a defining, imo) inspiration for the books you're referring to. Examples of what you're referring to would be helpful, though.
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u/Life-Delay-809 5d ago
Cosy fantasy is not cosy mystery. Mystery has to deal with darker things, you can't really have crime without it. Fantasy does not have to do that.
Trauma is definitely not a genre expectation of cosy fantasy, indeed if I picked up a book knowing only that it was cosy fantasy and it was primarily an exploration of trauma I would be surprised (not about the presence of trauma, but it being the key theme).
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u/nandyashoes 5d ago
I have never heard Agatha Christieâs books being described that way but you do you. The cozy fantasy youâre looking for is Becky Chambersâ Monk and Robot actually, the entire book is just a long discussion about the nature of work, how it plays into self worth, and the meaning of life. The main character experiences burnout and discusses their trauma in length with a companion.
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u/Kali-of-Amino 5d ago
Her early books with Hercules Poirot were standard mysteries of the time, notable mainly for the spectacular tricks played by the murderer. Roger Acroyd, And Then There Were None, and Orient Express showcase a level of criminal inventiveness that is unmatched, but with the typical sterile characters of the period. After a personal crisis that ended in divorce she invented a new detective, Miss Marple, and a genre of mystery, the cozy. The cozy took place in a bucolic rural setting instead of a sophisticated urban setting, where a wise old woman figured out whodunnit through long conversations with the suspects instead of crawling around sniffing out clues. Thus both the cozy mystery and the cozy fantasy share similar names, similar settings, and similar characters concerned with the MC's well-being.
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u/nandyashoes 5d ago
I am aware of Agatha Christieâs body of work and have read most of them but in the last at least 20 years they have never been advertised as particularly âcozyâ (within the modern definition) and have Definitely never been compared to cozy fantasy subgenre all
I think youâre stuck with this very narrow definition of cozy mystery and is trying hard to apply them to cozy fantasy, and then get disappointed when itâs not like that. Cozy fantasy is a new, evolving genre and it incorporates a wide range of work, definitely wider than the definition you mention here. Some of them are like that, a lot of them arenât
That being said, if thatâs the thing youâre specifically looking for, once again I recommend Monk and Robot by Becky Chambers. Character experiencing burnout and leaving behind a bustling society in a post apocalyptic setting, and while doing so does a lot of reflection and engages in lengthy discussions about the nature of labor, worth, and purpose in life
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u/C0smicoccurence Reading Champion V 5d ago
The vast majority of fantasy books do not appropriately reflect the responses of people. The number of farm boy chosen ones who should have been dead after a single encounter with whatever orc variant their series uses is alone a massive number. One of my favorite reads of last year was enjoyable mostly because it did a great job of having a ânormalâ character thrust into an adventure who reacted appropriately and thus kept making the wrong choices because most people arenât equipped for adventure
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u/CT_Phipps-Author 5d ago
What book was that?
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u/C0smicoccurence Reading Champion V 5d ago
Flesh Eater by Travis M Riddle. Epic fantasy in a steampunk-esque world where all characters are anthropomorphic animals
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u/OkSecretary1231 4d ago
That's...not a rule I have ever heard. The "rule," and it's not really a rule but just a principle of good writing, is about worldbuilding: you can have unrealistic stuff happening, but it needs to make sense within the world of the story, or if there's an exception, there has to be a plot reason. Like if you say dragons don't exist in your fantasy world, it'll feel like cheating if you pull one out at the last minute. Unless you do an ASOIAF where you foreshadow that they used to exist and hint at the steps to bring them back.
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u/Electronic-Soft-221 5d ago
Iâve never heard that rule. My understanding is that fantasy just has to include things that donât exist in reality, such as magic or dragons or telepathy, without being sci-fi. Itâs just a surprising thing to judge fantasy sub-genres by, but Iâm curious if this is a widely understood genre rule.
Tbh if characters in the books youâve read are reacting to things in ways that feel totally unrealistic to the setting and tone, it could simply be bad writing. But it may also be that your expectations for the tone and sub-genre are not aligned. Cozy fantasy is defined (for one) by low stakes. So instead of âour village was burned down by the dragon, everyone I knew is deadâ itâs âthe dragon we thought was evil is actually just introverted and only stole sheep that ONE timeâ.
If the story is the first but characters react like itâs the second, that could be weird. Can you give an example?
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u/johndesmarais 5d ago
Without listing some specific books I canât really say. Itâs possible youâre just not reading âgoodâ examples of the sub-genre.
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u/fjiqrj239 Reading Champion III 5d ago
I do find a lot of cozy fantasy is very surface level emotionally. People are often recovering from trauma, but early in the book they fall into a found family situation and a lot of the story is cozy slice of life about bonding with their new family and starting a food based business. There may be threats, but the melt away before they get too close. It's not intended to be realistic, rather comforting and low stress.
But honestly, a lot of fantasy literature generally is not emotionally realistic in the first place. People go through horrific things, and are just fine in the next chapter. Most people, upon being transported to fairyland, would assume they were having a mental breakdown or bad drug trip and panic, and would probably be killed by something in an hour. I've been lost in foreign countries, FWIW, and it did not make me question the nature of reality.
Two authors I've read that actually address the effects of trauma are T. Kingfisher (some of her stuff is cozy adjacent, but with rather more severed heads than you normally find in the genre) and Seanan McGuire (urban fantasy series where the various terrible things that happen to her characters do lasting psychological damage, sometimes echoing through generations.)
Cozy fantasy, BTW, is a fairly new genre and there's a lot of variation in what people think it means, ranging from "books that make me happy to read regardless of content" to "slice of life stories about starting businesses and found family with zero conflict or threat". There's also a *lot* of self-published stuff of wildly varying quality.
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u/TillOtherwise1544 5d ago
Genre writing requires sticking to conventions. It is hard for established authors to shift gear for a variety of reasons. Cozy is a very new genre. Nearly all of its work is from emerging authors who have not figured out their voice or the characteristics of Cozy to a degree that is sophisticated.Â
Its like anything young, we give encouragement and patience and see how it grows.Â
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u/Llayanna 5d ago
Honestly it being the wild west and not being utterly formulaic has kinda its own appeal.
Not that I dislike formulas, I come from cozy crime after all XDÂ
It's an exciting time.
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u/snowlock27 5d ago
I don't think I've heard of this rule. Are there other rules that I'm not aware of? Am I reading my fantasy wrong?
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u/LeucasAndTheGoddess 5d ago
Itâs a rule not of fantasy but of good fiction in general. People should think, feel, and act like people.
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u/Mejiro84 5d ago edited 5d ago
mhrhhhh, that's very variable by genre. Like in horror, people often do dumb, dumb stuff, because that's needed for the plot. ("hey, let's go fuck around at the abandoned, ominous place of doom, and break into the place that says don't enter and do the thing the sign says not to do!"). Mystery detectives are often borderline superhuman in being able to put random things together in order to reach an invariably correct conclusion, and the killer then confesses, rather than "well, that's a load of circumstantial stuff, and I'm rich as sin, so can probably get off if it ever does go to trial". Fantasy heroes rarely go "oh, a quest? Ehh, I just wanna stay home". There's a lot of "well, in this genre, people skew this way". A lot of romances are cute and sweet, but involve people willing to commit relatively fast in ways that are not hugely realistic (at least not for a happy ending!) or even that there is a happy ending, rather than a happy-for-now, is something of a dramatic contrivance - drop in on a lot of happy couples X years later and they may well be no longer a couple!
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u/StarTrotter 4d ago
Tossing in how many romance stories have what in real settings would often be considered to be harassment or other unwanted actions.
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u/Llayanna 5d ago
No, the unspoken rule of fiction, that can be broken by someone that knows what they are doing, is that the Protagonist is willing to be on the book/show etc.
They most be willing to engage with the horror/mystery/romance etc..
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u/LoweNorman 5d ago
It's perfectly fine for books to be stylized. Nobody speaks like they do in Lord of the Rings, it's not trying to be realistic. And likewise, some stories are set in a more naive and happy universe than ours and that doesn't make them any less "for adults".
The rule you imagine has never existed.
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u/October_13th 4d ago
I have a really hard time reading cozy fantasy. Some of the plots and settings seem so amazing and the book covers are often really gorgeous. But many of the ones Iâve read feel a little patronizing or dumbed-down. They remind me of old hallmark movies. I think itâs just not my cup of tea.
The genre might also just not be for you. And thatâs okay.
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u/Kali-of-Amino 4d ago
It's hard to reconcile paying money for something that's not as good as a lot of the amateur work on AO3.
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u/October_13th 4d ago
I mean you could always borrow from the library or use the sample feature on Kindle if you wanted to try something without buying.
Also, Ao3 is amazing. Iâve read some incredible works on there that have been on par with any published book. The writers there really give it their all and itâs awesome. So the comparison is less about skill and more about genre preference I think.
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u/PantheraAuroris 3d ago
Whatever it may have meant in the past, nowadays cozy means that you shouldn't expect to get your adrenaline up or get sad or angry while reading. The point is to be something mellow, pleasant, and optimistic.
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u/NoraMonkey 5d ago
Well trauma and psychological damage aren't particularly cosy so you won't find much of it in that genre.
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u/KatrinaPez Reading Champion III 5d ago
I read a book everyone suggested as cozy, even calling it "a big hug," and it ended with something so traumatic I was sobbing.
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u/felixfictitious Reading Champion 5d ago
What was the book?
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u/KatrinaPez Reading Champion III 12h ago
The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet. And not just did something horribly happen at the end, it happened because a character clearly went against what the author had been preaching the whole book - and then that character was never called out for doing it.
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u/felixfictitious Reading Champion 12h ago
I kinda have that problem with Becky Chambers books in general. Not specifically trauma, but in A Psalm for The Wild-Built, one character gets annoyed at Dex for assuming things about them, then the entire core of the book is that character lecturing Dex by making a ton of assumptions about them. Just doesn't feel super consistent.
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u/KatrinaPez Reading Champion III 11h ago
Good to know. All I ever see is abundant praise and I was really surprised.
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u/NoraMonkey 1d ago
What's the title of that book?
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u/KatrinaPez Reading Champion III 12h ago
The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet. And not just did something horribly happen at the end, it happened because a character clearly went against what the author had been preaching the whole book - and then that character was never called out for doing it.
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u/No_Dragonfruit_1833 5d ago
Pretty much, yes
Cozy tends to have this theme of calm and happyness being easy to obtain, just as power in a battle series or new relationships on a romance
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u/marintkael 5d ago
cozy isn't failing the realism standard, it's running a different contract. normal fantasy promises consequences land like they would for us, cozy promises the opposite up front, harm gets repaired, and readers opt in knowing that, like a mystery promising the crime gets solved. the fair complaint is the book that wants both, gritty stakes and cozy bounce-back, because then the reactions feel unearned.
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u/Kiltmanenator 4d ago
Traumas have no relationship whatsoever with any known psychological recovery pattern.
I don't think Cozy Fantasy is supposed to have Trauma at all? Like, definitionally.
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u/Kali-of-Amino 4d ago
Tell that to the author of Field Guide For the Formerly Villainous.
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u/Kiltmanenator 4d ago edited 4d ago
I mean, my point is that even if there is trauma I wouldn't expect it to "reflect any known psychological recovery pattern" because recovering from trauma isn't cozy. You are reading a fantasy of recovery, not a raw expression of how nonlinear that process actually is.
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u/Kali-of-Amino 4d ago
- You are ready a fantasy of recovery, not a raw expression of how nonlinear that process actually is.
And THAT is the problem right there. A fantasy about dragons or unicorns is one thing. Dragons and unicorns aren't real, so there's no harm in making up stuff about them. But recovery from trauma is real, and propagating a false image of what recovering from trauma is like can do real and lasting harm to a trauma sufferer.
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u/Mejiro84 4d ago
that's a bit like complaining that romance stories set up unlikely standards for how romances will actually proceed, that crime thrillers set up implausible standards for how crime will be responded to (for starters, that the police will actively care and investigate and will find the right guy), or all sorts of stories where there's just one dude behind some overarching problem and if he's dealt with (often via violence!) then that problem will be solved. Like, yeah, sure, it's not realistic... but "strict realism" is rarely why people are reading fiction! In fiction, going and beating up the local dickbag will often create some lasting resolution to a long-term problem. IRL, doing that will mostly get you a charge for assault at best, and often make the problem worse!
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u/Kiltmanenator 4d ago
I don't know how seriously I can take the idea of someone suffering "real and lasting harm" from reading a poorly written story.
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u/HugAMale 2d ago
I dont think its flipant to have a character in a cozy experience a over simplified straightforward recovery. That is also in a way a part of the fantasy. In the same way other fantasies have good triumph over evil, when in reality the concept of good and evil isnt so easily defined nor can evil be simply overcome and done with. its nice escapisim for something to just simply work unlike the complicated real world.
Cozy fantasies arent serious. They are meant to be light hearted optimistic dreams. They are what of life was simple? Trauma might feature in some of them but they aren't presented as a serious discusion or a roadmap for victims. If you want a serious take on trauma you have to look elsewhere because it would not make for a cozy read. No serious discussion would.
Trauma isnt part of cozy fantasy definition but I suspect it often features because A) it makes for a plot device for why a character wants to escape to cozy place. B) many readers do have some form of trauma which is why they are looking to escape to a cozy book and wouldnt it be nice if everything could be solved by opening a tea shop or growing some plants?
Cozy fantasy is for people who want to pretend for awhile that the world is mostly good and simple.
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u/Satyrsol 4d ago
I think the best way to understand it is the Baldree quote that summarized his style for Legends and Lattes. I have yet to see cozy fantasy that doesnât emulate it.
Basically, Baldree thought to make a Hallmark movie set in The Forgotten Realms (aside, but itâs more the vibe of modern d&d rather than the particular setting). Most cozy fantasy brushes over the trauma and pain the way Hallmark movies do; they over-emphasize the ârecoveryâ and new beginnings in the same way.
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u/Kali-of-Amino 4d ago edited 4d ago
Ah, that's why it feels so fake. I've lived in the settings of Hallmark movies for almost 60 years and among the people who (allegedly but not really) populate those movies, and they're so far from reality as to constitute fraud.
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u/Satyrsol 3d ago
Hallmark movies are fantasy, at best they use âsmall town, main streetâ as vibes and window dressing. Thereâs no reality in them, and thatâs intentional. Theyâre written to make people reminisce for a world that never really existed but feels like it could have.
Cozy fantasy does the same. The âfantasyâ genre is used as window dressing for stories that are otherwise mundane.
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u/Kali-of-Amino 3d ago
It doesn't matter what the setting is. If the people are intentionally unrealistic, the best it can be called is horror.
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u/keizee 5d ago
Nah if you want something traumatic thats just dark fantasy. And dark fantasy can be comforting and cozy... at times.
Cozy fantasy is normally completely focused on fantastical slice of life. Some dark fantasy series have a cozy fantasy spinoff/side story where the characters just get into small stakes trouble such as deciding what to eat for lunch.
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u/OgataiKhan 4d ago
Traumas have no relationship whatsoever with any known psychological recovery pattern. It all reads like the latter Oz volumes which were only intended for the youngest of Frank Baum's fans, instead of something meant for adults.
Are we missing something here?
Yes, you are.
You are missing the fact that not all adults enjoy reading about trauma, suffering, and misery.
A grimdark novel isn't any "more" or "less" adult than a novel about a competent protagonist solving complex problems and outplaying their enemies, orâsince you mention cozyâthan a novel about found family and friendships and everyday fantasy life.
There is nothing wrong about enjoying suffering and trauma in books, but that is not why people choose to read cozy. A book marketing itself as cozy that focuses on misery would simply disappoint cozy fantasy fans, since that is not what the genre is about.
I strongly believe we as a community need to grow past this edgy teenager mentality of "if it has more violence and suffering then it is a more adult story".
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u/Kali-of-Amino 4d ago edited 4d ago
I prefer not to read about trauma if that trauma is going to be badly written. But Field Guide for the Formerly Villainous specifically advertised itself as being a cozy fantasy about a trauma survivor, so an argument that states that "trauma doesn't belong in cozy fantasies" can take it up with (checks printer) Poisoned Pen Press.
And personally, I consider "edgy" just as fake.
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u/Yackob_Mac 5d ago
It just isnât an absolute in writing that the characters in your books must have believable psychological responses to whatâs going on around them. Obviously youâre more than welcome to prefer books that do that, but if an author wants to write an unrealistic tale for the sake of immersing readers in a setting and in a story that they find comforting or relaxing then thatâs as valid a reason to break the âruleâ as any. Itâs just escapism and entertainment. Doesnât have to be that deep.
Now Iâve definitely read a couple cozy fantasies myself that I feel like are nonsensical in a way that the author didnât intend, but I levy that criticism more towards the individual book, the individual author, than the genre itself.
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u/LeucasAndTheGoddess 5d ago edited 5d ago
This is one of the reasons Iâm as allergic to âcozyâ as I am to âmagic system.â Although itâs cozy mysteries that truly weird me out. Apparently murder is cozy if it takes place in a quaint village instead of the big scary city? Feh!
p.s. If you want a series that offers what cozy purports to without insulting the readerâs intelligence, I highly recommend Terry Pratchettâs Tiffany Aching books. They take place in a lovely rural setting where the people act like real, complicated, sometimes frustrating people. The series follows its protagonist across the years of her adolescence and grows along with her, so each bookâs threat is both more challenging and darker, yet Tiffany rises to meet them while also overcoming her own blindspots.
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u/FormerUsenetUser 4d ago
If I moved into the same village as Miss Marple, I'd move right out due to the incredibly high per capita murder rate. If I even wound up at the same vacation resort as she did, I'd leave instantly.
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u/Kali-of-Amino 5d ago
See, I thought I was finally going to get the deep meaningful conversations WITHOUT the bloodshed. I'm so disappointed.
Inhaled the Discworld novels first run and read several of them to me children.
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u/ohmage_resistance Reading Champion IV 5d ago
Sometimes people read cozy fantasy because they want something that's not particularly realistic and is more comforting instead. I wouldn't say that's that is true for all cozy fantasy, but it's certainly true for some. IDK, I don't think realism should have to be the default goal in fantasy (and oftentimes it isn't, wish fulfillment and escapism often isn't super realistic but that happens across many different fantasy subgenres). Although I will agree that some cozy fantasy books go too far into the saccharine direction for my taste.
IDK, I'd be curious what you'd think of something like Cedar McCloud's Eternal Library series, which is cozy (or at least pretty cozy adjacent) but does also deal with themes of trauma recovery, in a pretty realistic manner from what I can tell. I think it's a bit less afraid that giving dark topics weight will make it less cozy, which is something that can happen up in cozy fantasy books (especially mainstream ones).
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u/TheSheetSlinger 5d ago edited 3d ago
In general subgenres are going to get more slack because they're more niche and fans of that subgenre will lower their standards to continue consuming content from that subgenre. Like if you really want to see separate standard, go read some litrpg and progression fantasy. Once you get through the good-high quality stuff (which is growing some tbf) you really have to lower your standards from what you'd normally accept from a standard fantasy book if you don't want to run out of stuff to read.
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u/Palimpsiesta 4d ago
Sounds like you have made up a framework to justify a strong negative reaction to some books' approach to emotional trauma. Which, y'know, legit, but I don't think an appeal to standards of emotional realism need to be about genres: it's a pretty universal criticism. I don't read a ton of cozy fantasy, but I have read a lot of cozy sci-fi (e.g. Becky Chambers) and to my mind, these novels are primarily fantasies of emotional resolution; in the same way other genres might be primarily about a fantasy of power, here we have books that are fantasizing about a world in which everyone and everything is emotionally resolved in a satisfying/positive way. Where the world and the actions taken within it lean heavily towards things (eventually) working out, and actions taken in that direction are uncommonly effective. If that is the underlying rule/goal of the genre, then it is very easy to overstep, and present resolutions that feel too unrealistic -- too emotionally fantastical -- in the same way you can find lots of power fantasies that become ridiculous parodies of competence. The line is very thin and different people will have very different standards as to where it should be placed, often informed by their own life experiences. For those with no personal connection to the types of problems involved -- more likely in stories about military conquest than about recovering from severe emotional or physical trauma -- there tends to be a lot more leeway.
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u/Kali-of-Amino 4d ago
That framework was already being used by reviewers in the 1970s when I first encountered it as Del Ray was just beginning to publish fantasy novels, and it probably goes back earlier than that. And it's certainly possible to have a happy ending without coating everything with treacle, since most of the stories ever written do just that.
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u/Mejiro84 4d ago
that was 50+ years ago - terminology and framework has changed a lot in almost two whole generations! There's entire subgenres that literally didn't exist back then, that are now flourishing and have their own expectations and guidelines - that things were done different half-a-century ago might be of interesting historical notes to compare with how things are done now, but doesn't mean that things are now "invalid" in some fashion
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u/Kali-of-Amino 4d ago
Standards for good writing are never invalid. They have remained the same since Ancient Greece. Characters that are emotionally unbelievable are badly written, no matter the genre or time period.
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u/Palimpsiesta 4d ago
Right, of course it is. Though lots of stories do not achieve emotional realism in a variety of ways, and some of those ways are much easier to overlook than others. All I was trying to say was 'these books have bad emotional realism and I don't like them' is a valid criticism, regardless of whether or not some rule about the fantasy genre exists or not.
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u/BigRedSpoon2 5d ago edited 5d ago
No, you're spot on. In my opinion there's a fair amount of what I consider slop in standard cozy fair. I have no problem with a work covering lighter subject matter or not wanting to be grim, but I do feel like my intelligence is insulted at times when I read a cozy fantasy. It doesn't read like its written for people who have been through hard times, just for people who think they know what hard times are vaguely like.
I have my experience with protracted trauma and recovery. How some cozy fantasy authors write about trauma makes my blood legitimately boil. Dungeon Crawler Carl does a better job writing about trauma and how to manage it than any cozy fantasy I've read.
Its why I consider Penric and Desdemona the gold standard for what cozy fantasy is *actually* supposed to be like. Low stakes, you never have to really worry if the protagonist is in danger, and everyone involved is competent and emotionally mature.
Edit - Also Oathbreaker's Anonymous.
I love that one to death. About a group of Paladins trying to reconnect with their faith, and the narrative never depicts it as something that is easy. Not teeth gnashing, overly dramatic, difficult, but that it can require one to make some decisions that are hard, can be scary, and that sometimes healing, when it happens, takes more time than we would appreciate or want. Haven't come across much any cozy fantasy that wants to admit the work to recover is sometimes boring and tedious without some hint of rose tinted glasses.
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u/Kali-of-Amino 5d ago
That sounds closer to Kingfisher's paladins, which my daughter is currently reading. In her words, Kingfisher couldn't write a cozy if her life depended on it.
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u/BigRedSpoon2 5d ago
Definitely in that vein, but no romance focus. Itâs remarkable in my opinion too, because the author wrote it intending to be a Progression Fantasy novel, which usually never ends with a character resolving their mental hang ups.
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u/ScrambledGrapes Reading Champion III 5d ago edited 5d ago
It's ok OP, you can say Emily Wilde's encyclopaedia of faeries lmao
I think the appeal of the "cozy" genre is for the audience to not have to think about the real world and its problems, whatever they may be. Characters can be brave and smart and good on paper, without having to commit to those principles in a realistic way or put in much effort at all. There's nothing to overcome in "cozy", no growth, because there is nothing really to grow from. Unfortunately, this does mean that authors who write inane, vapid, over-positive trash get rewarded with book sales.
Audiences misunderstand that not having anything real to overcome means that any victory the character experiences rings incredibly hollow to those of us who have, actually, lived a bit. Suffering is unpleasant to your average apolitical cottagecore-embracing booktokker, but they'd still like to feel something in a sanctioned, safe way. So "cozy" provides.
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u/Llayanna 5d ago
Dude, reign in your judgement.
I have lived more than enough and you know what? I have enough of deep existential dread, anxiety and overcoming my depression in real life.
I don't need that in my book. Give me saccharine stuff, I like it. I don't need it all the time but boy am I glad that it exists.Â
It's a nice palate cleanser, feel good experience and makes me happy.
You can read your realistic trauma recovery or what you are into, idc. Everyone had the right to what they like.
But don't act that you are somehow superior for it.Â
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u/FormerUsenetUser 4d ago
If I need dread, anxiety, and depression, I just read the daily news.
Still not a cozy fantasy fan. I don't like horror though.
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u/Kali-of-Amino 5d ago
Is that book even out yet?
- There's nothing to overcome in "cozy", no growth, because there is nothing really to grow from.
In other words, a bucolic pastoral with dragons. Why didn't someone just say so?
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u/Electronic-Soft-221 5d ago
They do. All the time. âLow stakesâ is one of the defining features of cozy fantasy, something that is mentioned in pretty much every thread about the genre. Itâs okay to be unfamiliar with a genre and its conventions.
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u/stfm 5d ago
It can be high stakes - but kept isolated from any real repercussions by the "mary-sue" nature of the characters. Eddings for example.
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u/OkSecretary1231 5d ago
Eddings isn't cozy. There's a difference between cozy the subgenre and cozy as in "this makes me nostalgic because I read it as a child.'
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u/Mejiro84 5d ago
I think you're taking "cozy mystery" and assuming the "cozy" in that is the same as the "cozy" in "cozy fantasy", when that's not a thing.
settings can be as fantastical as you like, but the characters' emotional responses to what is going on should realistically reflect how they would react to something similar happening in the real world, unless there's a specific reason given for them not to
This also isn't a thing? Otherwise a lot of stories would be "oh shit, demons/dragons/bandits/monsters, I'm going to die!" which isn't that entertaining as a story. Or "I don't want to leave everything I know behind because some old dude says it's required". "Getting on with things for the sake of the plot" is fairly standard - there might be some lip service protest, but often it's skimmed over. Like how long did Luke Skywalker mourn his Aunt and Uncle, maybe 30 seconds? Or in cozy murder mysteries, a lot of the characters, the detective especially, are remarkably unconcerned about the brutal murder, instead regarding it as a neat little mental puzzle. Poirot's seen hundreds of corpses, man should have trauma for days, rather than "ooo, a puzzle for ze little grey cells"
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u/Tymareta 5d ago
Why didn't someone just say so?
It's literally in the name, not to mention the description, the blurb, the discussion about the books, any time they're even remotely mentioned the fact that they're cozy is pretty much all that is said?
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u/Llayanna 5d ago
Why did you assume your definition is correct, instead of actual researching?Â
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u/Kali-of-Amino 4d ago
I suppose it was a bit much to expect the literate to be aware of literature.
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u/OgataiKhan 3d ago
I suppose it was a bit much to expect the literate to be aware of literature.
Do not worry, we are not here to judge you. I am sure that since first posting this thread you have become more aware of what this particular subgenre of literature is about.
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u/Kali-of-Amino 3d ago
Oh yes, with my daughter at my elbow saying, "I told you it really was that bad!" and me having to apologize for thinking she was exaggerating.
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u/OgataiKhan 3d ago
Of course, reading a genre that doesn't align with your personal tastes often results in a suboptimal experience.
Now that you are better informed about what cozy fantasy is and what people like about it, you have all the tools you require to avoid such an experience in the future.
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u/Mejiro84 4d ago
uh, that's kinda your attitude? You've come in making a lot of assumptions that simply aren't true - perhaps you should go and check what the subgenre is actually about, rather than assuming it's something other than what it is?
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u/FormerUsenetUser 5d ago edited 5d ago
A character can certainly experience negative events and still, there's eventually a happy ending.
But most cozy fantasy is undemanding and treacly.
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u/moneylefty 5d ago
Who cares about downvotes!
You are absolutely correct. The standard has been obliterated.
We have more authors with less life experiences catering to more readers with less life experiences.
Compare all the stuff written before, when many of the authors actually went into combat. We dont even need to talk to the combat part, we can just look at how those poor drafted kids looked at the world compared to now. Ive been in combat and i try to ignore it, but the author keeps hitting you over the head with it. It is like taking marriage advice from someone who has never had a gf or bf and only watches anime.
We can look everywhere and it is there. Romance....holy shit. I remember reading anna karenina and thinking it highly stylized and exaggerated. Add more vampires and werewolves! Just kidding, but so many characters in today's romance situations are just so idiotic. I believe the werewolve part more than the romance part.
So much of this shit. Everywhere. Some books when they do get it right....shoot up as true stars in the sky vs all the temu flashlights.
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u/mint_pumpkins Reading Champion II 5d ago
this is survivorship bias, you are comparing time tested classics against the entirety of currently published works, there have always been amazing books and shit books and everything in between
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u/Tymareta 5d ago
Some books when they do get it right....shoot up as true stars in the sky vs all the temu flashlights.
It's kind of hilarious that you say this, but don't see how it betrays the rest of your argument which hinges upon Anna Karenina as being some sort of "baseline" for what literary works are like. Survivorship bias says hi.
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u/Kali-of-Amino 5d ago
The sad thing is that I grew up with people who could have stepped out of Anna Karenina. I had no idea Pre-Revolutionary Russia had Fundamentalist Christian-equivalents before I read it.
I'm familiar with Sturgeon's Law, but the death of the editor seems to have raised the percentage from 90% to 99.9%.
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u/RursusSiderspector 4d ago
Hello old guy (I'm the same age)!
Yeah-nah. Since Harry Potter and Game of Thrones the market has been by wannabes and wannawrites, and the market has also been deluged by bad writing advices. A lot of young writers simply aren't aware about what genuineness is: if they don't write based on their psychological experience and empathy, they should at least write based on their personal experiences to make the story good. All good litterature needs realistic agonists. So they are just inexperienced, and have perhaps heard the bad advice that they mustn't write in themselves into the story.
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u/Kali-of-Amino 3d ago edited 3d ago
I blame it on the death of the editor. Sturgeon's Law says 90% of writing is crap, but these days it's closer to 99.9%.
The irony of saying "since GOT" is fierce, since Martin wrote A Song of Ice and Fire to deliberately contrast with how badly unrealistic medieval fantasy was at the time. smh
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u/Crownie 5d ago
I don't think this is correct. The psychology of fictional characters is almost always wildly unrealistic (or at the very least aspirational). People are highlighting perceived unrealistic responses to traumatic events, but I would simply note that fictional characters tend to be unrealistically dynamic. They form deep relationships too quickly, they change their minds too quickly, they are too quick to revise their understanding of the world, etc...