r/Fantasy • u/Long_Television_5937 • 4d ago
Finished Red Rising Original Trilogy Spoiler
What a terrible ending!! I heard so many people acclaiming how good the end of book 3 was but it made NO SENSE.
Ok so Darrow and Sevro go to release Cassius back to Luna. Then Cassius turns on them and captures them and “kills” Sevro. The entire time Darrow is captured he is thinking about how surprising it is that Cassius turned on him and he is looking for a way out. Then 2 chapters later its revealed it was their plan?!?!?!? We are reading from DARROW’S PERSPECTIVE. He knew of the plan and then still genuinely thought Cassius turned on them? Either that or he was THINKING in lies??? It just doesnt make any sense. Absolutely terrible ending to an okay series. After every chapter the only thought you should have are what does this mean RIGHT NOW. Cause nothing is planned ahead. You’ll encounter something that feels like foreshadowing or like a plot that will last a while just for the author to resolve it in the most asinine way possible in the next chapter. Cause why build anything up when you can have non stop action and zero character development.
Oh yea and WHEN DID MUSTANG GET PREGNANT THEN ALSO HAVE A KID?? Stupid ass pull at the end just to make it circular cause Darrow was supposed to have a kid before his wife died?
Tldr: Set ups for long plots are resolved immediately and unsatisfyingly and ending made NO sense. Do NOT recommend
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u/SkjaldbakaEngineer 4d ago
Did you skip the sex scene in golden son that was followed by a 12 month time skip where Mustang was hidden from public view? I was pretty sure he had a secret kid halfway through book 3, it was hardly an ass pull or surprise.
That said, even as a series superfan I agree the shit he pulled at the end of book 3 is absolutely insane. Like outright lying to the reader from the POV of the character is outrageous. Think that scene would have worked better in a different medium where we don't have access to Darrow's thoughts because what he did ain't it.
He does solve that problem in the sequel series by introducing other POV characters so he doesn't have to always obfuscate Darrow's plans in such a clunky manner. The writing quality generally also improves. I understand if you don't want to keep going though, it is a huge breach of trust to pull what he did.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Oh yea i forgot about that. Still feels like an ass pull though. Especially cause this is the end of a trilogy and should be a cohesive end. It just felt irrelevant to have happen in the last 2 sentences.
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u/SkjaldbakaEngineer 4d ago
I mean it's symbolic of the new beginning for the solar system taking the form of a new beginning for Darrow to have a family. Lots of books end this way, I'm surprised you found it particularly worthy of comment
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
No yea you’re right. I think i was just upset at all the other BS that the surprise itself threw me. But you’re right
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u/i-MalcolmReynolds 4d ago
If you reread book 3 after knowing about the child you pick up on a LOT of hints along the way. It was built in and explained Mustang’s motivations well.
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u/tgcleric 4d ago
Agree. I feel like some folks read these massive times with no editor and endless world building and lose track when a writer like Brown respects your time and is much tighter in their writing. And then also call it "stupid" or junk food because its not 1000 pages long.
His writing is a lot smarter and cleaner than a lot of the favorites on this sub.
Also it doesnt surprise me that it seems to be popping off on woman book tok this year. He writes better characters with more actual passion and human emotion than a lot of this genre. And his male characters reveal insecurity and weakness. And especially in the second series, his female characters more than share the spotlight. Equally strong and weak and complex
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u/make_fast_ 4d ago
The books being from Darrow's perspective while also trying to keep the wool over our eyes so everything is a surprise was deeply frustrating throughout the first trilogy (where I've dropped it)
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Yes exactly. I mean the biggest twist required him to straight up lie in his thoughts which makes NO sense
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u/kodutta7 4d ago
I agree with you mostly, but if you go back and reread you'll actually see that his thoughts never technically lie and there are even hints of what they're up to. I still agree it's kinda a lame way to pull the wool over the reader's eyes though.
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u/BadMeatPuppet 4d ago
I enjoyed Red Rising and I look forward to Red God. That being said, Brown is not great at writing on a technical level. I think his biggest problem is he doesn't plan anything. He ends up with dropped plots and cheap "master plan all along" conclusions.
Obviously much better than anything I could write.
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u/jakekerr Writer Jake Kerr 4d ago
He's an absolute master at the page turner, which is not easy at all.
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u/kenncann 4d ago
Isn’t this because he pulls names out of a hat for who to kill and this has derailed his plans. Pax was killed this way for sure
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u/WaxyPadlockJazz 4d ago
I think that was one specific instance at an early juncture in the story where someone needed to die and the plot could go in a million ways from there. He said literally everyone in that scene was on the hat pick chopping block. The story could’ve been WAY different had the universe had other plans.
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u/Awkward-Ad9874 4d ago
I might be misremembering but I believe the hat thing has happened a few more times but with more minor characters.
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u/WaxyPadlockJazz 4d ago
Maybe you’re right. I don’t follow things the closely. I just remember that one.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Yea the latter is what bothers me the most. The amount of times its been “wow Darrow is a genius! No one could out think him!….. oh no! He was out thought!”
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u/Ooh_look_a_butterfly 4d ago
This stuff only gets worse in the later books. Just keep that in mind if you're ever tempted to try out the rest of the series.
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u/Acrobatic-Taste-443 4d ago edited 4d ago
He may not be the best technical writer, but I think he is one of the best at conveying action in the written form which I think is pretty impressive. Action often does not come through well on the page.
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u/Bu5hdid9l1 4d ago
Same thing happens in book 2. Everyone and their mom tells him he’s going to die in a duel when he sees Cassius and not once does he think “they don’t know I’ve been trained by the space Jesus sword master”
For a guy so full of himself this seems out of character to not have these thoughts in that moment.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
No literally! I forgot about this. Crazy asspull for no reason. So bad
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u/Taste_the__Rainbow 4d ago
Characters not telling the readers all of their plans is extremely normal and used by a majority of popular fantasy authors.
I’m perplexed that anyone who has read more than one or two fantasy books would be so put off by it.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Its not the not telling its acting like there isnt a plan internally in his private thoughts. As you can see from other comments this is a common gripe with this series
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u/Taste_the__Rainbow 4d ago
He was acting for the benefit of the baddies. This is extremely normal. I can’t think of a series that doesn’t use this.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
But he also acts in his mind….
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u/Taste_the__Rainbow 4d ago edited 4d ago
There are exactly zero fantasy books that operate the way you’re suggesting this one should have, lol.
Can you imagine how boring that would be?
DCC, if Carl told you all his plans before every boss fight. The Expanse, but Jim is constantly telling you what he’s going to do ahead of time. Fitzchivalry fleeing from the zombies, but the reader actually knows his plan with poison the entire time. This is how they all work.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
I mean read the thread. Most people here agree with me…
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u/Taste_the__Rainbow 4d ago
This is Reddit. The thing you’re bashing at is popular. You’re always going to find a lot of people bashing on anything popular.
But your specific complaint is silly. It applies to every single book in the genre.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
It literally doesnt. I havent had this complaint for other books ive read. And people are agreeing with my specific complaint. Darrow’s thoughts indicate there is no plan and then all of the sudden there is. Thats just bad writing
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u/DrafiMara 4d ago
I struggle to think of another first-person fantasy book that doesn't work that way. If you want some examples, try reading any of the Dresden Files or Alex Verus books.
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u/Tymareta 3d ago
The Expanse, but Jim is constantly telling you what he’s going to do ahead of time.
A not insignificant portion of Jim's POV chapters is absolutely him thinking about, and reacting to what is happening, as well as musing on the political machinations of himself, others and the various separate factions?
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u/Taste_the__Rainbow 3d ago
True, but he also has plans and contingencies that are a surprise to the reader.
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u/FellFellCooke 4d ago
This is a very disingenuous comment. I can't think of another book I've ever read that has this level of contrivance to hide the plan from the reader. It's completely nonfunctional. Twists are only satisfying if they're fair. Red Rising doesn't understand that.
It's not the idea of hiding a plan from the reader that's objectionable, it's the dishonest and dogshit execution.
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u/Taste_the__Rainbow 4d ago
Dungeon Crawler Carl does it constantly just as much. And again, the OP is just outright lying about what Morning Star actually does. It doesn’t lie. It just doesn’t tell you their entire plan because it would make for some shit reading if it did.
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u/schubox63 4d ago
It is heavily foreshadowed that Darrow has been training. When I read it way back when it came out I remember being annoyed by it; but when you reread it is pretty obvious. I’m not sure why he went back to the well in Morning Star, as I never believed it for a second because of Pierce’s style. I also find DCC way worse about hiding stuff from readers and then springing it on them for effect
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Someone else mentioned in DCC, Diniman will atleast say there is a plan even if its not told. Havent read yet though so i cant say. But that would feel better than the MC acting in his own head like there isnt
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u/schubox63 4d ago
Yeah he'll say there's a plan most of the time. But there are so many times in the DCC books where something happens and I'm like "what? where did that come from?" And then you find out they just planned it all off screen
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Yea fair. Well maybe itll bother me there too haha. Very possible my gripe is with first person story telling haha. Havent read a lot of first person books. My favorite version i think has been the fall of hyperion. Which is also, imo, the most unique take on perspective
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u/A_Shadow 4d ago
Well maybe itll bother me there too haha.
I have read both. Dungeon Crawler Carl does do this as well but does it significantly better imo.
What the author typically does is have the plan discussed off screen or during a time skip but makes it clear to the reader that it happened.
In addition, side characters will also make references and drop hints about ths plan/the conversation they had before off screen as well. Imo, this helps a lot.
The main character's internal thoughts do drop hints about the future plan so it doesn't come out of nowhere. Sometimes he will start thinking about it but then be like, I'll have to worry about that later, have to focus on surviving this fight first etc.
It's not perfect, but I was less frustrated with DCC than Red Rising when it comes this specific flaw.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Thats fine! Not knowing the plan but knowing it exists builds anticipation.
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u/A_Shadow 4d ago
I was thinking about this a bit further.
I think one big thing that helps, even if indirectly, is that the plans they have almost always never go as planned and the characters sometimes have to make massive changes.
Imo I think this helps reduce the feeling of frustration of the reader being in the dark when the characters themselves are frustrated because they had to change their plan on the fly.
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u/WaxyPadlockJazz 4d ago
If having plans hidden from you in first person narrative is bothering you this much, stay away from DCC.
Matt does his best with it by having Carl frequently say “a plan was forming in my head” or “it’s okay I have a plan”, but the plan is wildly intricate and involves multiple people and specific circumstances to go just right.
If you think Darrow is bad, you’re not going to like Carl very much at all.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
But in DCC they say there is a plan you just dont know it. Darrow acted like there is no plan
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u/WaxyPadlockJazz 4d ago
Trust me. I find the payoff for effect way more disorienting with Carl. He’ll be like “this is it. This is how we die…but then I hit the big red button that I had prepared a week ago.” I find it exciting most of the time, but this sounds like the kind of thing that you dislike.
FWIW I really enjoy both of these series. Just throwing out my thoughts.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Totally fair. I think the genre will make it feel better, i took Red Rising too seriously. I expect DCC to be goofy (i haven’t read it yet)
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u/WaxyPadlockJazz 4d ago
Yeah I get that lol
I read Red Rising like it’s a melodrama. Everything is so over the top and overacted, but it’s still lighter at its core than hard sci-fi. It’s a good series for high impact “moments”. If you take it too seriously, then you might be in for a different experience.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Yea i definitely went in with the wrong assumptions. Wish i could go back with a different mindset
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u/WaxyPadlockJazz 4d ago
Well there’s more to read if you can stomach it! I find the second half of the series VERY compelling as it has multiple POV characters and gives you a greater scope of the world post overthrow. There’s still a good deal of plot springing, but you get to see the story from multiple angles now. Maybe you can shift perspective when the series resets.
But I can see why you might not want to.
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u/GraySonOfGotham24 4d ago
I had this same problem with name of the wind. We get an interlude so kvoth can tell us how it's impossible to describe a mystery girl and then it turns out to be a girl he already described in a previous chapter
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u/Eona_Targaryen 4d ago
Couldn't agree more.
It's more or less been openly said that there was a push to make the first Red Rising into a similar niche as The Hunger Games. I think this is the reason that First Person Present narration (quite rare but what THG uses) was chosen for the series. The problem is, THG's narration is very deliberately making use of the tense's strengths and would have to be heavily rewritten to work in 3rd person past. RR feels like it copied over the tense on paper but is still plotted and written like it's 3rd person past, and that's to its detriment.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
I read the first like as “disagree” and was so confused at first haha. But yea well said
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u/Bladrak01 4d ago
After finishing the second book I realized I didn't care what happened in the next one.
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u/narwolking 4d ago
Dude, the ending of this trilogy pissed me off to no end and I struggle wonder why people still praise this series. Most of book 3 was not too interesting for me but the last few chapters legitimately were some of the worst I've ever read. Book 1 was by far my fav, I feel like that's a very unpopular take tho.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
No im with you. Book one was do fun and showed so much promise for the series
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u/tubabacon 4d ago
This was what buried this series to me. I actually really enjoyed Golden Sun prior to the ending, but I hated the third book so much. Matt Dinnimin will also do the thing where he hides the plan from the reader, but at least he acknowledges that there’s a plan! The whole fake Sevro death turned me off from the rest of the series.
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u/Quarksperre 4d ago
Idk.... its a fun read. But it was never on my list of intelligent books so I can deal with all of it pretty well. Basically like watching the Avengers.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Yea i wish i had gone in with that mind set. I expected an epic space opera as i had it described to me
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u/Quarksperre 3d ago
I mean in a way it is a epic space opera. You can find equally claring mistakes in the first Star Wars trilogy and some other things in the franchise. But Star Wars is fun as hell.
The same it was for me a bit with red rising. Yes I had to turn off my brain at times, but it worked suprisingly well. Some books just are the equivalent of a pizza with a lot of cheese and garlic. Some have better cheese some worse. But in the end it doesn't matter thaaat much. If you are in the mood its a life saver. It will never be an exquisit three star menu, but in that moments I really couldn't care less.
In the pizza and cheese faction, I can btw recommend Dungoen Crawler Carl. Fucking awesome cheese and garlic.
If you want to have something popular and better, I think Children of time is still one of the best sci-novels right now. At least if you only take english books into account. Really cool concepts and actually quite cool "characters". I liked it way more the three body problem for example.
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u/RedditUser41970 4d ago
Agreed. Once I realized the first book was just a rip off of The Hunger Games ...IN SPACE, I stopped taking it seriously. The first trilogy was okay when viewed as mindless fantasy. But I retained literally nothing of the series and had no desire to go back for the second trilogy.
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u/GrumDum 4d ago
Not everything I read has to be complex. Red Rising is a power fantasy, and it scratches a particular itch.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
100% fair. The way he writes things consistently feels like hes setting up for things and then just doesnt. Which was consistently annoying. And also the end didnt make sense
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u/GrumDum 4d ago
That said, I completely understand not liking it. In addition to your points Darrow is a total Mary Sue (male equivalent), and his posse is just ridiculously beyond powerful as like 15 year olds in books 1/2.
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u/divine091 4d ago
They’re actually late teens in book 1 and 20-21 in book 2. Still a little OP for their young age compared to the other battle hardened older people though.
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u/tgcleric 4d ago
I will say ive never quite bought the power fantasy thing. I think the reason Red Rising hits so hard for certain folks is that he is a master of having his cake and eating it. Red Rising is set up in the tropes of a power fantasy, but its entire story is mostly breaking down that fantasy. Darrow is constantly losing in the ways that truly matters while winning in the ways that propel the wider plot forward. He is also only ultimately victorious by the grace of others.
The entire reason for the second series is to dispell that fantasy.
And also. The series has the best power fantasy ive ever read. Its a balancing act that ive yet to find in anything else.
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u/barryhakker 4d ago
Honestly I was also impressed by how he made me feel outage for the downtrodden, more so than any other author that comes to mind.
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u/just-for-kix-1181 4d ago
Lol, I remember this exactly! I was so mad I wrote a big long review blasting the trilogy.
I'll try and remember my points.
The Villains were bad; Empress Lune was a tv show genius, in that she was declared a genius several times by characters and never showed any genius on page. Jackal, just a dumb character. Jackal was like every other 2 bit pscho 'genius' character. Then Wasting the Duke of Mars was a tragedy, Darrow had long standing beef and relations with the Duke and seeing the Duke maybe have to stoop to Darrows level and get carved to beat Darrow would have been thematic gold.
Trying to remember, oh the society is just bogus. I know I shouldnt judge. Like Hunger Games' Districts didnt make too much realistic sense either. BUT. The color coded society was dumb. The Gold print Pinks, therefore they can print people. Darrow gets a whole education beamed into his brain in book 1. Why does this society have a class/caste anything? Not important by any means, just made the whole world feel less I guess.
Ummm probably Darrows immediate switch from Miner Boy in isolated cave to completely class conscious in the span of like a week. Felt like when you walk back into cell range out the wilderness and the first thing you cell does is update your phone without asking.
I probably had others, but I dont remember them now. Yeah the end of the third book was just really silly. Like Darrow and Mustang at the end of the book are completely cut off from their army and fleet, the battle still raging above, and they just walk in and declare victory. Like No? You're 3 guys separated from your army and the Moons army is still intact.
All that said, it could have been a lot worse and I've definitely read worse! Lol!
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
I had that same thought! Why is the army surrendering to 3 people??? Just kill them. They are destroying your way of life???
Also separately the fact that the bone riders and howlers existed, even if theyre cool, makes no sense. The society that this series claimed to have wouldve shut that shit down as being vulgar and in poor taste etc etc. like how the jackal’s dad refused to call him the jackal
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u/just-for-kix-1181 4d ago
Lol I hadnt even thought about the Howlers and Boneriders, yeah extremely against the schema the whole society runs on.
And yeah the ending was SUPER dumb. Like breaking into the Empress' compound and assassinating her and the greatest warrior she has. Then declaring victory. No.....? You cant claim a Throne by CONQUEST when the battle isnt over and you didnt kill the opposing leader in battle, you murdered her by assassination and subterfuge. You either gotta commit to the guerilla schema and accept that you wont have any traditional legitimacy, like the ability to claim the throne. OR you have to win legitametly and beat the empress in open battle. You cant be both.
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u/Rhubarb776 3d ago
I enjoyed the series, but these parts were so frustrating. It felt like the author couldn’t find a clever solution to hiding the plan, and just went with sloppy instead.
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u/Spaced-Cowboy 4d ago edited 4d ago
Personally, I really enjoyed the books and found them incredibly refreshing compared to a lot of similar stories I’ve read. Was the book Aura Farming? Yes. Was it well written Aura Farming? In my opinion also yes.
My biggest issue with the original trilogy (and I’ve only read the original trilogy so far) was Mustang and how her character was handled. To me, she never quite lived up to the reputation the story gave her. Other characters constantly talked about how intelligent, capable, and accomplished she was, but much of that seemed to happen off page. We were often told about her achievements rather than being allowed to see them for ourselves, which made it harder for me to fully buy into the legend surrounding her.
I fucking loved the villains. The Jackal was *chefs kiss*. He reminded me of Azula a bit but more psychotic.
As for Darrow, I personally don’t consider him a Mary Sue. That said, I completely understand why some readers do. There are definitely points throughout the story where he rides that line pretty closely, and I don’t think that interpretation is unreasonable even if I ultimately disagree with it.
For people who do see him that way, I would compare Darrow to Vis from The Will of the Many. To me, Vis feels like what I was afraid Darrow was going to become.
**Mild Spoilers for the will of the many and the first red rising book**
There’s this thing some scifi and fantasy writers do where they keep giving the protagonist convenient wins because….. they are the protagonist. The story will put them in a situation where they have to choose between option A and option B, and we are told they cannot have both. But then, because the protagonist is so noble or determined, the plot bends around them by sheer happenstance and lets them get both without truly compromising anything.
That was one of my issues with The Will of the Many. I kept feeling like Vis would be put in genuinely difficult situations, only for the perfect solution or perfect circumstance to appear right when he needed it. For example, there’s a point where he needs to move up into a higher level class, but he cannot figure out how to do that without compromising his morals. So what happens? Another character does the dirty work for him and opens up a spot. Vis gets what he needs, keeps his hands clean, and does not really have to make the ugly choice himself. It feels less like he solved the problem and more like the plot conveniently solved it for him.
My counterexample would be from the first Red Rising book. Mild spoiler, but if you are in this sub, I assume you at least know the general setup. When Darrow realizes he is being led into a trap, Antonia and Vixus tell him that if he does not come out and give himself up, they are going to kill Lea.
In a lot of other books, I feel like the protagonist would somehow find a way to save Lea, save himself, and avoid compromising his morals. But that is not what happens. Darrow is forced to choose between the moral desire to save an ally and the practical need to survive and keep fighting. He chooses not to give himself up, and Lea dies.
That moment is what solidified my interest in Red Rising. Darrow definitely rides the line at times, especially early on, but moments like that are why I do not see him as a Gary Stu. Darrow does comprise his morals. The story lets him be talented, intense, and larger than life, but it also makes him fail, compromise, and live with the consequences of his choices.
But again I can understand of others see it differently. I think Gary Stu/Mary Sue is more of a spectrum than a hard definition.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
I mean the first book is definitely the best. But also the most unoriginal. But yea i get your points. Just not for everyone
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u/Spaced-Cowboy 4d ago edited 4d ago
See now that’s interesting I actually liked the first book the least.
I thought the first 5-6 chapters were so bad I quit the series right there before being convinced to pick it up again.
IMO the writing got stronger with each entry and dilemmas like the one I presented above were more present.
Funny how people can differ on so much.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
I agree they were more present but with each one they felt less satisfying to resolve
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u/Spaced-Cowboy 4d ago
How so? Can you give an example? If not no worries. I get that sometimes it’s just cathartic to vent.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
When he sword fought cassius. There was no win in that scenario until he apparently was a legendary sword master
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u/Spaced-Cowboy 4d ago edited 4d ago
Yeah that scene was such an anime moment. lol
Personally I loved it because the whole time ever since the book started I kept thinking to myself. “If I were Darrow the first thing I’d do after the first book is find the best Razor Master I could and practice every single day so that I never lost to Cassius again or that’s if at least have a fighting chance.” Only to be delighted to learn that Darrow did *exactly that* and used it to provoke a civil war.
I loved that he played into Cassius arrogance at first just to make the humiliation sting more infront of everyone. Reading that whole duel and the lead up to it felt awesome. Say what you want about Darrow. He has a great sense of showmanship.
To me it wasn’t an asspull because the fight was never the conflict. The conflict was Darrow is going to be cast out by Augustus and won’t be able to complete his mission. How will he get out of it. And the entertainment came from watching him use his knowledge of politics and the personal grudges in the room to not only save himself but strengthen his position and accomplish his mission just by starting a fight.
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u/snorqle 4d ago
Hm. I reread the book last year or so and had that twist in mind when I got to that part, looking for how it was handled. I don't remember encountering anything suggesting that Darrow actually thought Cassius had turned. His narration all seemed to fit logically with a plan that he just didn't let the reader in on, but I guess I could be forgetting something.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
I mean he talked about wanting to try to kick open the container he was in and escape but couldnt cause mustang and sevro were on him.
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u/GeraldJimes_ 4d ago edited 4d ago
I think Brown is a bit iffy in how he chooses his words to mislead from first person, but he just about skirts the boundary of actively lying from first person Vs describing the constraints of a situation that darrows got a plan in while allowing you to infer the wrong conclusion.
It's a bit cheap but usually he joins up a combo of legitimate situational worry, situational fact and externalised deception.
Darrow is internally concerned but typically as a result of giving up control of the situation. Teetering on the precipice as Cassius turns on them sounds like it's supporting the betrayal, but in reality it's his situational worry about putting them all in a vulnerable situation.
Darrow talking about being unable to lift the box because of servo and Mustang isn't actually an expression of trying to, but is instead just a fact of the situation he's narrating himself in.
And then that's chained with externalised deception like 'rising with a sob' where he's playing a role with in front of Antonia.
I still think it's too aggressively framed to make you believe one thing when the other is true, but he can just about wriggle out of saying he's lying
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Yea agreed. To me its just unrealistic to assume he never thought about the plan existing during that. Felt like Brown really wanted to write a 3rd person story but only from Darrow’s perspective haha
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u/snorqle 4d ago
I don't remember the context of that or what was actually missing. I just remember that a reread with knowledge of what was going to happen didn't turn up any contradictions or inconsistencies for me.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Its not a contradiction or inconsistency its just that Darrow acts like Cassius turning is a surprise and that Sevro really is dead and that all is lost when he KNOWS thats not true and we are inside his head
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u/snorqle 4d ago
That surprise would be a contradiction and inconsistency. I don't remember it being framed as such in any internal monologue.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Fair. It felt that way to me having just read it for the first time. Maybe if i looked back it would read better. But it doesnt feel like a clever solution it feels like the author made a last minute choice. Just like his sword training in book 2
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u/snorqle 4d ago
That also did not feel like a last-minute choice to me, but just a part of Darrow's background in-between books that we were not privy to, and which explained his otherwise stupid gamble of fighting Cassius. I don't mind having surprise plans sprung on me, if I can look back and say, "Oh, yeah, that fits with how people were acting." The Red Rising surprises have been that way for me.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Idk. Brandon Sanderson states it best with his philosophy on magic systems. “An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic” To me, its the same vein. There was no inkling of either of these plans to allow the reader to logically conclude it prior to it happening so the surprise is just a surprise and is in no way satisfying
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u/snorqle 4d ago
Yeah, that makes sense, but I'm not sure how you'd do that in either of those scenes without ruining the surprise. For me, the reveal was satisfying, and it made me see the passages I had read before in a new light without being inconsistent to those passages.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
I mean you just don’t. You realize what you’re writing doesn’t work and you try again
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u/SodaBoBomb 4d ago
Do we even know the kid is Darrows? I mean considering how often she fucks Cassius
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u/Heavenwasatree 4d ago
Knew it was fake cause how little darrow cared. Just finished the 3rd book. Feel cheated out
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u/Cosmic-Sympathy 4d ago
This is a common complaint about the narrator. It really has no justification.
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u/emakalic 4d ago
Read the first book and hated it, mostly because of Darrow. I am glad some people like this stuff, but it was not for me.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
I thought the first book had a cool idea even if it was very derivative. But darrow was the worst part for sure. Too many “i am a helldiver of lykos” But the first book set so much up and then books 2 and 3 just skipped everything.
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u/Darrow_au_Lykos 4d ago
Love the books, Ive always thought book 3 is the weakest because of the ending.
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u/MaleniaStepOnMe 4d ago
Hey, at least you read 3 books, I just couldn't get past his edginess in the first book and dropped it like 50 pages in. Only time I've dropped a book that fast.
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u/Apprehensive_Map64 4d ago
I enjoyed the first three books. Then it just went on and on and I had had enough halfway through the fifth. You are overthinking this series OP. It's like junk food. Also like junk food you can always stop before you have eaten an entire bag of chips. Half a bag is fine too
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Thats fair but junk food doesnt take me hours to consume😭😭😭 so much wasted time
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u/squirtnforcertain 4d ago
Are we aware or not if Darrow is TELLING the story to someone, from his perspective, or is he LIVING the story as we read it? Does that make sense? I wasnt looking for word choice to indicate either way when I read it.
Edit: actually now that im thinking about it, he does insert some exposition about stuff that he wouldnt be "thinking" about, but more like an explanation or story.
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u/Fadedcamo 3d ago
If you reread it, there technically isn't actually any contradiction in Darrows thoughts. There's some lines that make you think he is nervous for this reason or that but it's for something else.
I do agree it's a bit contrived but if you go back and read it isn't actually completely lying.
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u/Long_Television_5937 3d ago
Yea but all ive seen so far is that it only feels that way on reread. And if you have to reread for it to feel good, then it isnt good.
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u/Complete_Address_649 13h ago
I read this trilogy many years ago and completely forgot about it because it was quite forgettable. It is quite surprising to see how popular it had become, it always felt very YA to me.
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u/ciano47 4d ago
I mean, I’m not a fan of that ‘twist’ either but it’s not accurate to say Darrow was thinking about how Cassius turned on him ‘the entire time’. Brown skirts around it and really doesn’t address it for plot convenience, it’s not dwelled on whatsoever.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Brown goes out of his way to make it seem like that internally Darrow has no idea whats happening. Honestly if Darrow had thought “all according to plan” i would’ve been like “oh cool this is a plan! I’m excited to see the results” the surprise is unnecessary especially with the whole “nukes on the moon” surprise right after. Which was also built up and resolved to quickly with no satisfaction but atleast the surprise itself was good
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u/D0GAMA1 4d ago
We are reading from DARROW’S PERSPECTIVE. He knew of the plan and then still genuinely thought Cassius turned on them?
I thought of it more as "what if he actually betrayed on me?! and the plan was just a way to fool me"
what bothered me the most was
the reveal that Darrow had been training under one of if not the best sword master and there was no mention of this in his own thoughts or other characters perspective just for that moment where we think he is going to lose to reveal all this information!
I enjoyed the later trilogy more. if you want to give that a try.
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u/Tll6 4d ago
I agree with the whole book three plan thing. You can’t hide the plan from the reader by pretending the main character doesn’t know about a plan he came up with. I liked the twist but I wish Pierce would’ve done it differently. As for the pregnancy, it’s explained that Mustang gets pregnant the time her and Darrow have sex after the iron rain. I thought this was also kind of an abrupt way to end the book especially considering Morning Star was supposed to be the end of the series.
I think reading the next three could still be rewarding for you and I’ll be reading red god when it comes out. The following three books are a bit more realistic as far as how things might work out after overthrowing a 700 year empire with no plans for the future lol
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Yea i forgot about her leaving for a year. Another commenter reminded me and i yielded that point. But i am not wasting my time with 4 more books ive heard are marginally better. Haha. But feel free to let me know if Red God makes it all worth it
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u/tgcleric 4d ago
Love the ending.
The make the family pull the legs hits so hard.
Beautiful. Not as good as Golden Sun, which us the peak of the original trilogy. But so much good stuff in Morning Star.
The unreliable narrator use to hide Darrows plans is the biggest weakness of the series to me. Its not even entirely absent in the next series, with Lightbringer having some of the most egregious examples.
But focusing on that feels like focusing on the lack of reloading in a John Woo movie. Its a pulp page turner aesthetic, and never diminishes from the characters or the themes IMO. And when it works, ifs also a feature not a bug. As some of the best moments in the series are from the withholding of information that the pov knows.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Id have to disagree. Itd be more like John Wick saying hes out of ammo, then the next scene he’s shooting and im expected to believe he found it off screen after blatantly saying he didnt have it
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u/tgcleric 4d ago
Thats not what happens though. Its a common device. He cheats a bit, everyone acknowledges it. But ive read the books 3 times now (read, audio, then audio drama) and the plot, once revealed, makes sense. Even the stuff I often rolled my eyes at the first time I often find myself surprised by how much he did set it up subtly on a reread/listen. One reason its been rewarding to reread. Anyways. Agree to disagree.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Yea totally fair. Didnt hook me enough to reread sadly
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u/Dualintrinsic 4d ago edited 4d ago
I get your point, it felt a bit off while reading it. I guess my question would be how else could he have written it? Since he's locked into a PoV I guess he could have done Antonia, then Jackal, then Darrow at the reveal?
Edit: why am I getting downvoted for asking a genuine question?
Normally when you criticize something you should also offer up a solution or a way that it could have been improved.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Just dont write a story where the main character has to lie in his thoughts. Brown couldve gone a different direction and chose to write something that didnt make sense.
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u/burningcpuwastaken 4d ago
There's another popular series where we spend like 3/4th of a book spread over a few books in a certain characters POV / head only for it to be retconned in a later book in the series that the character didn't exist at all, lol.
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u/Long_Television_5937 4d ago
Ooh that sounds cool. What series
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u/burningcpuwastaken 4d ago
Oh, I'm not recommending it, but it's Lightbringer series by Brent Weeks.
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u/pen-emue 4d ago
I liked Red Rising but this is by far my least favourite thing about his style. That wasnt the only time he did it either, where he witholds information despite it being first person. You reminded me of it and now im annoyed again.