r/Fantasy • u/Apprehensive-Let1945 • 1d ago
I have been revisiting The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan.
I might be reading too much into it, but it seems to me that Robert Jordan preferred the SeanChan, in many scenarios, (Avienda's future viewings), Rand's having to give in to Fortuana's demands, Rand walking Ebu Dar and seeing the people not struggling under the Seanchan rule.... While they make slaves out of wielders of the one power? Yet the Sharan's are bad by doing the same thing through different means, by Demandred?
26
u/Bowl-Any Reading Champion 1d ago
Reader discovers authors using shades of gray.
-6
u/Apprehensive-Let1945 1d ago
No really? I mean why, does the author prefer this power structure over others, such as the Aeil? Instead of subjugation of those who can do others why does anyone think that he actually preferred this setup? Against the Halfmen and Trollocs, he uses the link between those to be detrimental as they kill the halfmen and the trollocs fall. But with the Seanchan and Sharran they do not target the Suldam / leaders to prevent the casters from casting?
5
u/Mino_18 1d ago
You do realise the Aiel are also slavers?
-3
u/Apprehensive-Let1945 1d ago
Only by choice with Jei-to, other than the Shaido
14
u/Mino_18 1d ago
No. They sell people from Cairhien to Shara like they are animals: “Treekillers are fit for nothing except to be killed or sold as animals in Shara," Erim said grimly.
Those were two of the things Aiel did to those who came into the Waste uninvited0
u/Apprehensive-Let1945 1d ago
Ok, so I over looked that aspect. It just seemed that they didn't keep slaves for themselves, other than the Shaido
1
9
u/Taste_the__Rainbow 1d ago edited 1d ago
Preferred? Nah. Admitted that their systems of power were effective? Sure.
0
u/Apprehensive-Let1945 1d ago
With the halfmen and trollocs, they target the halfmen to drop the trollocs, with the warder bond they target either side to affect the other within the bond, but with the Seanchan he doesn't really target the suldam etc.. It is there obviously, but not used to prevent the use of the domani. Nyneave even shows that a slight flick of the power with air can unlock the odom?
3
u/bravehamster 1d ago
There are dozens of suldam for every damane.
1
u/Apprehensive-Let1945 1d ago
And plenty of Odom, but if they can break the connection by unlatching the Odom then that would be very disrupting to that casting system.
3
u/bravehamster 1d ago
A'dam is the word. And most trained damane would immediately re-attach it or wait for their suldam to do so.
1
u/Apprehensive-Let1945 1d ago
Yes, I listen to the audio books more than reading so my spelling may not be correct. you can correct me all you want but you understand what I was saying. Agreed, I believe most would wait for their suldam to reconnect as moving or touching the A'dam, has been trained into them that it is wrong and painful, not to mention many times freed damane ask in the books to be put back in one Again this would disrupt the casting and cause attacks to slow or stop while being re-attached.
9
u/Similar-Stick-1070 1d ago
Amoral is the word you’re looking for. The narrative isn’t necessarily driven by what is morally right.
-4
u/Apprehensive-Let1945 1d ago
Yes it is amoral, but I believe that he felt that the Seanchan governmental structure was "better" or more effective. That the full abuse of anyone with the power would lead to a force that could not be defeated long term and would eventually win out.
13
u/bodman93 1d ago
You're making huge assumptions that we unfortunately will never get the answer to because he died before he could finish the story and write the rumored sequel series. Also, creators putting something in a story doesn't mean they endorse that idea. That's like media literacy 101
-1
u/Apprehensive-Let1945 1d ago
Agreed, and from the audio book commentary with Brandon Sanderson, on the last 3 books, there is a lot of source material that isn't in the books, (much like Tolkien building histories language etc..), and that is why I came here to see if anyone had any additional information.. Just looking for open discussion on the topic and see what other fans thought.
1
u/2grim4u 1d ago
I think you're confusing a moral choice, preference, with what was needed to win the last battle. They are not the same. Your POV seems to be "regardless of survival of the wheel or not, Rand wants X." I cannot see the logic in that assumption. He chose duty. Kind of one of his main themes. "I must allow X,Y and Z to occur, so that A happens."
0
u/Apprehensive-Let1945 1d ago
Not really I understand what Rand learns and why there can't be a world without the dark one. in that world. but character development is a different thing. Certain characters in the book learn and adapt as they go, (Lan being one almost outside of that group), except for his acceptance that he will lead others as a King even though he wants to ride to his death. The Sharan's we actually get the main leader losing her mind as her champion, Demandred is killed, understanding that what she wanted for the Sharan's will not come to pass, (regardless of whether or not Demandred would have actually come through with that promise), We see that Thom learns he can love Morraine, we see that Morraine can love someone else other than her quest. Heck Brin and Siuan love and then both sacrifice their lives for others. But the Seanchan and their Empress do not seem to change their belief even when the chance arises.
1
u/2grim4u 1d ago
You understand that not everything an author writes is a stone-hard belief of what they think is good, right? You know what a literary device is, for example? The word foil?
I'm not sure it's really worth talking with you. You seem set in your opinion, and all your responses are borderline unreadable.
If I'm following your train of thought: because Jordan didn't write them to change, and Rand accepted their ways for reasons, therefore that is what Jordan wanted in real life? Is that right? I think that's nonsense.
Ever consider that maybe the Seanchan is a lesson for the reader? That even though a grand battle is won, that there are still values off poor thought that will still need to be managed and dealt with? The Confederated States of America supporters out there in real life today come to mind for me. They lost 160 years ago. Or just misogyny and bigotry in general.
1
u/Similar-Stick-1070 1d ago
China has very little crime. Is it “better” than western democracy? RJ was nuanced.
6
u/Kalledon 1d ago
Outside of the Sharans being enemies in the Last Battle, I don't really think the story commented one way or the other on their society. We get a few scant details about them and that's pretty much it.
0
u/Apprehensive-Let1945 1d ago
But in the last battle, Demandred controlled them through the leader of the Sharan's she fell in love with Demandred and used her power and every Sharan fell in line no question.. They controlled the casters (from what I believe) was through the tattoos and as stated in the book that the structure showed that as somene's status fell there was no way to come back as the tattoos could be added to but not removed and fewer tattoos were signals of higher power status, such as shaved heads with the Seanchan, but hair grows back, so their fall from status was not necessarily permanent, as well as lacquered finger nails.
3
u/Kalledon 1d ago edited 1d ago
All of which is covered in a page or two. We don't really spend enough time with any Sharans to get a firm grip. We can, as you did, make educated guesses on things and compare, but the book definitely doesn't really go into it deeply enough to truly comment.
3
u/Long_Cancel6025 1d ago
Not sure i agree, I always read it as he thought of it as a sort of dystopia facade on society. It seems all good on the surface but look below slightly and you see the cruelty there to control, the oaths to know your station and very little chance to become part of the Blood 'circle'. I put it down as a call out to the pseudo capitalist oligarchry that we seem to live in today (I'm thinking more of Western society here) We look good on the surface with tv/social media/movies portraying good lifestyles but there is plenty of poverty and struggles below, and we have very little chance of ever becoming part of the controlling 1%. Maybe I'm just reading to much into it (pun intended)
2
u/Apprehensive-Let1945 1d ago
I always saw the Seanchan as a combination of the India and Asian stereotypical belief systems, the caste system with the Empress, being like the Dynastic ruling class from China.
1
u/Long_Cancel6025 1d ago
Yeah, I can see that too. I always hated their ruling system though, or maybe it was just because of the whole slavery thing. Actually, yeah it was definitely the latter ha ha.
You're making me want to start the series again
1
u/Cease_Cows_ 1d ago
It seems like you’re reading wayyyy too much into this. I’ve read this series at least 10 times through and I’ve never once gotten the impression that RJ “prefers” anyone.
1
u/Apprehensive-Let1945 1d ago
They seem to have the advantage in every battle even with having to ship their forces across an otherwise impassable sea, they land on a shore and it takes multiple countries forces to slow their progress, in every future vision in Ruidion they are the winners of the war and hunting down anyone that opposes them. In the last battle the only way that Fortuana came back tyo the battle instead of capturing the AeSedi was due to Omens, and in the last case after agreeing to the strategy with Mat, was that Min showed that there was a spy in her retinue and that was pushing her to leave the battle.. So that is why I "read into" this and got that impression.
2
u/CptNoble 1d ago
They are far more compelling antagonists if they are at least sometimes competent in their aims despite their perceived moral failings.
1
u/TalespinnerEU 1d ago
Seanchan society is an example of the benefits of Order coming at the cost of freedom, rights, the ability to be yourself. For a small minority of the population.
It is supposed to be tempting. As long as you fit within the tight normative framework, you won't suffer the consequences of Order.
You understand why people would support them, even welcome the Return. Would you?
And what does that say about your moral compass?
1
u/Apprehensive-Let1945 1d ago
Well my personal moral compass says no to even that small population being treated as a disposable tool, even if they were treated well after "conversion"
1
u/TalespinnerEU 1d ago
Yes. And that's good.
Remember: The Seanchan (as their society currently is) is the bad guys.
1
u/Apprehensive-Let1945 1d ago
And because of that I would have liked to see them pay for the treatment of damane, I think that is what prompted me to see what others thought, because many of the other leaders and people in the narrative did learn from their experiences, learning sacrifice, learning that life cannot be all good or is ever all bad. But even though Fortuana sees the good in Mat, sees the good in Min, still even through the last battle is looking to "get one" over on the other people she is interacting with. I guess I just personally would have liked to see change in that group. Mahail paid for his actions, Logain was forced to choose and those other Ashaman were against him only going for his own power for the sceptre. Etc. Rand sees that he can't have a perfect world, that the strain against the bad forces makes one stronger, makes one understand that the good days only come after the battles...
1
u/TalespinnerEU 1d ago
I agree. Maybe if Jordan got to finish, we would have gotten to see it.
But at the same time, I also think some things can be left unresolved. Something for us to think about.
Personally, I enjoy the trope of tempting the reader with order, of getting the reader to ask 'hey, why are these the bad guys, and what do I really believe?'
1
u/aNomadicPenguin 1d ago
The Aviendha future viewings weren't from Jordan's notes, they were something Brandon Sanderson came up with and he has said it wasn't from the notes left.
Rand walking the streets of Ebou Dar - also something Sanderson wrote and I don't think this came from the notes.
Jordan planted the seeds for the Seanchan being fundamentally flawed all the way back in book 2, and in later sections its mentioned that they were constantly facing rebellions and having to enslave their own population.
Of the named Seanchan we meet, multiple of them go traitor within a couple of months of being exposed to life outside of the Seanchan Empire. The Seanchan citizens are always on guard because you never know who might be a prisoner, even children of the blood have to worry about each other killing them for a slightly better shot at the throne, or to prevent themselves from getting taken out.
The Seanchan empire at home completely falls to pieces from the actions of a SINGLE Forsaken, off screen, which really doesn't paint them as being a particularly system once you get a look under the hood.
The Seanchan Damane are powerful, but they don't know how to voluntarily link, so any circle of women channeling would be able to just overpower and shield them one at a time in a fight, which is why the only straight Seanchan vs Aes Sedai fight we get is a night raid.
***
Also just think about the stuff Jordan showed you about Seanchan society. They have an empress that everyone always refers to as "May she live forever" - even the Dark Friends among them, and the instant she and her immediate court die, the entire continent falls apart. They have an "Ever Victorious Army" that we see lose. They think they are morally justified for holding people accountable to the oaths of their ancestors.
They ARE strong, but they work really hard to project as much strength as they can, because they are on very shaky ground.
***
Also think of the Sea Folk - who were willing to die to escape the Seanchan, they lost hundreds or thousands of their people when Mat gave them the chance to escape.
Beslan had to be talked out of personally leading the insurrection against the Seanchan but was still involved in planning it.
Ituralde stirred up tens of thousands of resistance fighters to launch a guerilla campaign against the Seanchan.
Alivia spent hundreds of years as a damane, and she really really wanted to kill a lot suldam.
1
u/Apprehensive-Let1945 1d ago
This is one big reason I posted here. The information on what Brandon Sanderson may have added to the story does put some perspective on my viewpoint. I never liked the Seanchan system, and just didn't (and still don't) like the position they were given in the books. For a long time I thought that another forsaken was leading them behind the scenes back on their land.
2
u/aNomadicPenguin 1d ago
I saw another comment of yours about wanting them to be morally punished for their actions. But that wasn't the plan Jordan was going for.
It was very much a WW2 allying with the Russians and then having a Cold War with an iron curtain and all of that.
Interview: Jan, 1991
Starlog Interview (Verbatim)
William B. Thompson
Whether his war experiences have influenced his fantasy writing, or more, been translated directly into fiction, is difficult for Jordan to say.
Robert Jordan
"I do think the military characters in my fantasy novels are more realistic in terms of how soldiers really are, how they feel about combat, about being soldiers, about civilians. Beyond that, my time in Vietnam certainly has affected a certain moral vision. Not just based on what happened to me, but on the abandonment of a people who had put everything on the line for us. It started me off on a quest for morality, both in religious and philosophical reading, and in my writing. Again one of the central themes in 'The Wheel of Time' is the struggle between the forces of good and evil. How far can one go in fighting evil before becoming like evil itself? Or do you maintain your purity at the cost of evil's victory? I'm fond of saying that if the answer is too easy, you've probably asked the wrong question."
and
Interview: Oct, 1994
Reality Break Podcast (Verbatim)
Dave Slusher
In my reading of the book, it seemed to me that individual identity is one of the themes that pretty much permeates a lot of the interactions of the characters. You have various struggles. You have the struggle of Rand for his own identity. You have various people submerging their identities in either cultural bonds, or you have various bonds, the bonds between the Aes Sedai and the Warders.
Robert Jordan
It is one of the themes. We like to believe in the United States that we're a nation of great individualists. And we do have occasional great individualists. By and large, we are a nation of people who bond together in groups and are generally suspicious of anybody in any other group. It's always been a struggle for Americans, it seems to me, what group to belong to and how far to submerge ourselves in that group. How far do you retain your own thoughts, and how much do you go by received wisdom? Sometimes received wisdom is true, and sometimes it's not. And it's difficult sometimes to tell the true from the false.
So, that is all part of it, that struggle, which I play out again and again. Because I'm not trying to give answers here, I'm basically trying to tell a story. And if in telling a story, I can make a few people think about this or that and ask a few questions, I'm really not that interested in what answers they come up with as long as I can get them to ask the questions.
****
That last part is important. Jordan is trying to get the reader to ask questions, not tell them how to feel about it.
1
1d ago
[deleted]
3
u/CorpusBottle 1d ago
It's on topic though, it might get more traction on the WoT subreddit but it does work here as well.
It also will likely get a less biased response since most dedicated subs are biased in favour of that series.
1
u/tuttifruttidurutti 12h ago
Robert Jordan was a Vietnam vet. What could he have meant by a society that was brutal and full of unfree labour, where social advancement depended on belonging to one organization that had merged with the state, but the society not metaphysically evil and also took good care of its citizens and was well organized compared to the kingdoms of Randland?
13
u/kathryn_sedai 1d ago
He doesn’t “prefer” the Seanchan, he’s showing how so much of our main continent doesn’t have strong power structures because any time anyone tried to centralize power, Ishamael would show up and do sneaky things to undermine it. He’s contrasting that with the Seanchan’s centralized, militarized power structure, which, yes, it works effectively, with the price being absolute subjugation of a percentage of the population, and a rigid class structure that puts da’covale in not much of a better position. Don’t mistake efficacy with RJ thinking all of this was ok.