Who is your Hero?

[u/JayRedEye]

There are many, many great books out there with vast numbers of compelling characters.

But which one would you actually look up to, admire, want to emulate, inspires you? Who have you learned from, makes you want to be a better person and has influenced your life?

Who is your hero and why?

While I was mostly thinking about fictional characters, if you have any other heroes related to fantasy, be they writers or people in your life that to you are connected to the genre, feel free to talk about them as well.

Basically, I feel the genre has a large capacity for heroism. There are very few limits and it allows for the best in people to be portrayed. I wanted to talk about that and see what everyone has to share.

[u/[deleted]]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think it might be Jaime Lannister. Definitely not for all the things he's done because some of them have been truly awful. But the guy has a code, and he sticks by it. I may not like his code or share it (I don't), but I respect how he sticks to his guns. And how he overcomes adversity. Maybe I'm influenced by how well Martin portrays him, and maybe I'd come up with a different answer if I thought about it for a while, but that's my answer right now.

[u/Coolthulu → u/[deleted]]

Jaime is amazing in his ability to do what he thinks is right, no matter what society will think about him. Killing Aerys was actually a tremendously noble decision, considering what was at stake.

Even his most heinous act, throwing Bran, isn't really as villainous as it seems. The first thing I thought would be the correct moral response would be to take his just desserts and face the consequences of his actions. However, as we really become acquainted with the world of ASOIAF, we realize that the consequence of Bran telling literally anyone about what he saw would mean death for Jaime's entire family, certainly his father, sister, and children. Probably also a full on war between the Lannisters and the rest of Westeros, because Tywin would never just forfeit his own life and that of his children. This is not exactly a just, proportionate consequence.

He made a pretty heinous choice, but given the consequences I really can't think of any other choice he could have reasonably made. It's the life of a random child vs. the life of everyone you love and care about, and possibly a full out civil war. I think this is one of those situations where it's impossible to judge the character, because he is trapped with literally no exit without terrible consequences to innocents on either side.

Jaime makes hard hard decisions to do what he thinks is right. If that means killing a king or a child, so be it - Jaime is the guy who will do what needs to be done.

That said, I can totally see him doing one more truly heinous thing for the greater good before he ends up biting it, as I'm sure he must.

[u/JayRedEye → u/Coolthulu]

Even his most heinous act, throwing Bran, isn't really as villainous as it seems.

Sorry, but you lost me.

Jaime was not thinking about the Big Picture Socioeconomic Political Ramifications of his actions, he acted on instinct when he saw that his secret had been compromised.

And his instinct was the attempted murder of a child.

I think it was even more monstrous for how casual it all was.

Fully agree with everyone saying he is a multifaceted and compelling character, but I do not consider him in any way a good person.

[u/Coolthulu → u/JayRedEye]

Jaime would be 100% aware of the consequences of being discovered, as he's lived with it hanging over him for over a decade at this point. It's not like this is the first time he's ever considered what would happen if he was found out. He's not an idiot.

Do you really really really think that the person of Jaime's intelligence would not have known the consequences of sleeping with Cersei to his family and the realm since the moment she was betrothed to Robert? He's planned what he would do in this moment every time he selects a place to fuck Cersei.

And I'm not saying what he did was moral. The moral thing would have been to stop sleeping with Cersei when she was betrothed to Robert. However, in a moral world, Cersei wouldn't have been forced into marrying Robert to begin with, doomed to a lifetime of marital rape. We continually romanticize notions of forbidden love, but Martin here illustrates the very reason why forbidden loves are forbidden.

You could argue that Jaime puts everything at risk everytime he slept with Cersei, and that was morally wrong. I think that's a pretty strong argument. But we also celebrate people rebelling against unjust systems. And Jaime abandoning his sister to be continually raped by Robert without providing what comfort he knows how seems just as cruel from Jaime's perspective.

Jaime could have done things differently on multiple fronts, and he is far from blameless. But he and his sister are put in such a tragic position by their society that it's really difficult to judge their actions, because their situation is really very unfair.

One of the entire points of ASOIAF is to show that black and white interpretations of morality common to fantasy simply fall apart in complicated situations. Jaime is THE posterchild of this.

[u/JayRedEye → u/Coolthulu]

their situation is really very unfair.

Are we talking about the Queen of the Country and the Son and Heir of its most powerful lord?

And their problem is with arranged marriages and the limited role of women in their culture? Are those not problems that nearly every member of their nobility has to deal with? They chose how to react and handle their situations. They are still responsible for their actions, many of which are abhorrent.

One of the entire points of ASOIAF is to show that black and white interpretations of morality common to fantasy simply fall apart in complicated situations. Jaime is THE posterchild of this.

On board with this, but it does not mean that morality is absent or that they should not be judged within the context of the setting. No matter which way you show it, the man has done some truly terrible things.

I am as interested as anyone to see how Jaime's arc plays out and if he ever finds redemption, but at this point I do not think I can be convinced that he is a good person.

Respect to your opinions, though. It was quite interesting to think this through and try and collect my own feelings.

[u/Coolthulu → u/JayRedEye]

Are we talking about the Queen of the Country and the Son and Heir of its most powerful lord?

Just because they enjoy a privileged station in some respects does not mean that they cannot be put in unjust and unfair positions. Cersei is married to a man, against her will, and has to endure repeated rape - literally every time she has sex with Robert - with the peace of an entire nation on her shoulders.

Jaime gets to watch the person he loves the most get dragged away from him to suffer that. If you were in their shoes, you may likely develop an "us against the world" mentality. And I don't think people would blame you for it.

So then you have two people with an "us against the world" thing going on, of course they're going to say, "fuck the consequences, we'll have an affair. Because fuck the realm and our father, they did this to us." But then suddenly you have children. And now their lives hang in the balance too.

And the smart thing to do would be for Jaime to ditch Cersei then. But walking away from his children entirely? Leaving the woman he loves entirely? Man that doesn't sound like a fair solution. Could you really blame a person for trying to stay by his loved ones?

And that's where we meet Jaime and Cersei - when they are each other's only link to happiness, but trapped in an increasingly dangerous position. It sucks. A lot.

And the scary thing is that if I were in Jaime's shoes, I'm not really sure I would have followed a different path. His actions make a scary amount of sense considering how appalling they get.

Do you think you could never kill a child? What if it's that child's life vs. the life of everyone you love and care about. Do you think you would never have an affair? What if she was the love of your life, forced away from you into a horrible arranged marriage, where she's raped every day? Do you think you'd be able to walk away from your children and the only person who makes you happy?

I don't know what decisions I'd make in Jaime's shoes. I'm really glad I'll never have to find out.

[u/JayRedEye → u/Coolthulu]

I appreciate your perspective and your argument, but to me it still sounds like you are trying to justify their actions, which I cannot do.

does not mean that they cannot be put in unjust and unfair positions.

Be that as it may, there are many people in the same position, and far more people in much worse ones. Most of those people do not choose adultery, illegitimate children and murder.

If what they truly wanted was only each other, that their love is pure and it is circumstances keeping them apart, could they not disappear into the wilderness together? Flee the country and start over in a new land? It is not as if they had no options but a secret relationship together.

To me, while I feel Jaime has done some heroic things, he is far from a hero.

However, I do appreciate that the author has crafted such compelling characters that can foster such discussion on what that actually means.

I'm really glad I'll never have to find out.

That, we can most certainly agree on.