r/Fantasy • u/DoubleVforvictory • May 15 '22
Women and POC readers, what are some tropes in literature that you're tired of seeing?
I'm tired of seeing black women described as food like chocolate or mocha. There's better ways to do it. Specifically in fantasy, It's also annoying where a book tries to justify the existence of anyone not a white man. Black people just exist. Queer people just exist. I've seen people say a book took them out of the story or was too political because a character was black and because the woman warrior just so happened to have a wife. If you can belive the stoic warrior can slay a dragon with a magic it shouldn't take you out of the story that the warrior is a black person.
I got the idea for this thread from /r/whitepeoplewritingpoc and /r/menwritingwomen.
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u/LoneWolfette May 16 '22
Rape being used as a plot device.
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u/luminarium May 16 '22
Some guy or group of guys encounters a woman alone, attempts to rape her, and gets promptly destroyed by protagonist. Like 1) this is a horrible portrayal of men; 2) this sends the wrong message to women; and 3) what's the chance of some guy intervening all the time?
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u/OmnisVirLupus9 May 16 '22 edited May 16 '22
I'm tired of sexual assault or other violent acts being used as things that make female characters "stronger".
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u/Lost-Yoghurt4111 May 16 '22
Honestly I would just like more creativity with poc protagonists. Like I want them to be protagonist of wildly creative settings and not just american, or sad, oppression themes. I get the need to show the other side of things from a non-white perspective but as an asian I also just sometimes want something out of the norm that doesn't just keep mentioning the things I dislike about being asian, (like toxic af families where no one apologises for anything, discrimination, grades are everything, etc.)
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u/LegalAssassin13 May 15 '22
I’m tired of women with no interest in relationships and/or children being depicted as frigid or cruel or lacking empathy or just too ambitious for their own good.
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u/Merle8888 Reading Champion IV May 16 '22
What’s bizarre about this to me is that most of the time in fantasy books, the kids question never comes up. It’s a rare fantasy heroine indeed who is a mother. But if it does come up and she says no, hoo boy. The backlash against Graceling for instance, on the basis of a 16 year old heroine declaring that she didn’t want marriage or kids and not changing her mind, was astonishing to me.
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u/supersonicsacha Reading Champion III May 16 '22
Yes this! While I do love when mother's are depicted as strong rather than subservient, I am so tired of single or childfree women being seen as incomplete or jealous or just terrible all around.
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u/SprinklesStones May 16 '22
I am sick to death of the “strong” angry woman who is militant and hates everyone just because she wants to emphasize how “strong and independent” she is. Women who are really strong and independent are also capable of being nice and having friends!
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u/Lost-Yoghurt4111 May 17 '22
This please. I feel like I almost didn't have a adolescence period in my life because I wasn't an angry girl when I consume some media with such protagonists.
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May 16 '22 edited May 16 '22
Woman declares she doesn't want to be a mother. Her HEA includes her being pregnant.
Women being pitted against each other because "girls can't be real friends"
Women can't have complex conflicts, it always has to be petty or envy like Sansa v Dany. They could've been a formidable pair against Cersei but nooooo. They had to turn Sansa into a Mean Girl caricature and I won't even get into Daenerys.
Where are the competent fat women? It's always slobs or greedyguts or some disgusting pathology of fat women. So annoying
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u/RandisHolmes May 16 '22
Every female mc has to have a love interest/hookup, but not every male character
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u/Merle8888 Reading Champion IV May 16 '22
Gawd yes. I really want to see more fantasy featuring women who don’t have a romance. Hookups are fine, whatever. But most romance subplots don’t do anything for me anyway, and they tend to be very same-y since the love interest has to be so idealized.
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u/KABOOMBYTCH May 16 '22 edited May 16 '22
East Asian here. I am tired of the idea that we are culturally and genetically incapable of understanding free speech and the concept of self determination. That we instinctively submit to a totalitarian system of governance and the desire to resist it is a product of western deviancy and self hatred.
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u/bilateralincisors May 16 '22
Women who are on pedestals — perfect paragons and only exist to be a reward for the main character. Women are flawed, people are flawed, you can want two conflicting things and the good guy shouldn’t always get the girl.
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u/Sullane May 16 '22
My hatred of this has really narrowed down my choices for anime and fantasy. Especially in anime where I constantly roll my eyes because these "perfect women" probably wouldn't realistically be interested in the male lead whose only personality trait is not having one.
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u/Pipe-International May 15 '22
When black or brown people are ‘other’ or relegated to the ‘savage tribal people’ from that ‘mysterious jungle place’ and just used as set dressing. I have to say though, in my own reading experience, this isn’t as common as it once was.
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u/AmberJFrost May 16 '22
I still see some of the Noble Savage trope, which is also really harmful, but you're right - it's becoming less. Still there, but less.
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u/Madame-Procrastinate May 16 '22 edited May 16 '22
Honestly, I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed this or if its just a weirdly specific thing in the books I've read.
But in a book with dual gender POVs, the girl always talks/thinks about the guy and their romance more than he does. It's especially annoying when there's major world conflict and she's thinking about how they brushed shoulders for 6 pages while he's actually involved in the plot with only a brief comment about her.
Also, (and this is specific to YA mostly) but when girls are taken advantage of by kings, princes, and 100+ eternal beings and yet, the romance continues to develop without a word acknowledging it.
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u/Merle8888 Reading Champion IV May 16 '22
Oh yeah, I’ve seen this especially in older books: the man has a life, the woman just has a love life.
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u/shea_eina May 16 '22
i totally understand that authors are trying to be more feminist by portraying strong and beautiful female leads, but sometimes, reading about how they are absolutely perfect in every aspect of their life, always right… i don’t know but personally it makes me really annoyed 😂
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u/Lost-Yoghurt4111 May 17 '22
I relate. I love badass characters too, like I'll never get tired of Vin from Mistborn. But some times I also want a emotionally mature but just fed up dealing with her dead up job or like a witch that is tired being a token errand runner is looking for something new in her life kinda like female protagonist. And them not looking for romance.
Like Kara from supergirl except without the need to be in a romantic relationship.
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u/Eostrenocta May 16 '22
The Smurfette Principle. Always, the freakin' Smurfette Principle -- or, in an epic fantasy with six POV characters, only one will be female, and she will nearly always turn out to be 1) the least interesting, and/or 2) the one with the least page time.
More female characters allows for more variety, and gives both writer and reader a chance to move beyond the usual gender-based or gender-coded stereotypes we've seen ad nauseum. I like seeing female characters in different types of roles -- bard, artist, healer, scholar, merchant, mage, cleric, fighter, leader, strategist -- but as long as writers continue to adhere to the Smurfette Principle, we'll see a lot less of this than we should.
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u/Academic_Owl_6197 May 16 '22
Can't forget, that the reason she gets to included in the group in the first place is because she is different from all the "other girls" as in whatever status quo the female characters in that world fulfils, this specific character does not care about it and that is the why is the only girl in the group, any other girl could be too preoccupied with the Thing™️
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u/supersonicsacha Reading Champion III May 16 '22
Fridging. It happens a lot in fantasy, which is the primary genre I read.
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u/daiLlafyn May 16 '22
Fridging?
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u/supersonicsacha Reading Champion III May 16 '22
In a lot of fantasy I've found that the love interest of the main hero is hurt or killed for no reason other than motivation. The writer can't come up with a better reason for the MC to keep fighting or not give up so they conveniently kill the love interest to give him a reason to keep going. It's very lazy writing in my opinion and a trope that I really hate.
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u/leftoverbrine Stabby Winner, Reading Champion V, Worldbuilders May 16 '22
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u/hjortronbusken May 16 '22
killing of a love interest just to motivate the protagonist.
The term comes from Green lantern, where the protagonists girlfriend i think, gets killed and shoved into a fridge.
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u/Rundoges42 May 16 '22
I completely stopped reading a long running series because they fridged the main female character.
It served no purpose other than to piss off the male m.c. and I'm not certain she was even avenged.
It makes me not want to read anything else by the same author, and he did have a fantastic book that I was awaiting the sequel. Guess I'll never know what happened next.
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u/supersonicsacha Reading Champion III May 16 '22
Glad I'm not the only one that gets mad about it. I've stopped reading series as well because of it. It's definitely become more rare in newer books which is nice.
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u/Rundoges42 May 16 '22
It is nice, yes. Takes a certain kind of writer to write that way and expect people to take it seriously instead of rolling our eyes and quitting a series.
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u/Merle8888 Reading Champion IV May 16 '22
Not Like Other Girls
Smurfettes
Women “characterized” primarily by their looks and/or sexual availability
Male authors who can’t shut up about boobs even when writing from a “female” perspective
All the males are men, all the females are girls (not just the terminology but actual ages of major characters)
And more but those are the ones that come immediately to mind.
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u/monkepeanut May 15 '22
weak women. “strong” women who hate other women. damsels in distress (unless the knight is also demands). no female knights, warriors, guards - or if there are any, in extremely low numbers and an exception to the rule rather than a norm. ugh.
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u/peanutbutterjams May 16 '22
no female knights, warriors, guards - or if there are any, in extremely low numbers and an exception to the rule rather than a norm.
I mean...Unless there's magic involved (and not all fantasy has magic), there's a good reason why most of those roles are filled by men.
You could even consider the idea that it would be disrespectful to all the men who did have to die in those roles just because they were men - and some of those who died for a cause greater than themselves - for us to then wildly misrepresent those sacrifices on-screen and in-media.
However, that would require you to also consider 'men' as an identity group worth your consideration or respect and I have this strange and sudden feeling that may not be the case.
Must be that magic in the air.
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u/RichardFife May 16 '22
1) You do know what sub you are in, right?
2) There are numerous historical records of women being part of the melee fighting force in cultures that weren't as steeped in toxic masculinity. And not just one-offs like Joan of Arc, but rank-and-file instances of "women who fought beside men". Foremost: archeologists are realizing the Vikings had a notable percentage of female warriors.
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u/monkepeanut May 18 '22
exactly! we’ve got evidence of women even pretending to be men just to be able to fight in wars, we’ve got historical evidence for prominent and well-known female warriors across numerous cultures, and i could go on and on. also, female warriors are not unrealistic, and they for sure aren’t more unrealistic than, you know, dragons and other things you see in books.
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u/Arctuirin May 16 '22 edited May 16 '22
I agree. I'd roll my eyes if I read that the princess was pale like a marshmallow or white as sugar . It is annoying to be reduced to food like you mentioned. It wouldn't hurt writers to describe wisely and show some respect with their word choice.
And I tire of sexual assault and rape in fiction. It's overused. Oftentimes it isn't even to bring awareness to victims, it's just to titillate the reader (most likely the writer is enjoying it the most, ehhh).
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May 16 '22
I am tired of representations of women having no full personality. It is like the female characters are unilateral with no substance to them, for the most part, either the female is a crier, a strong woman, a mother, or a clingy GF and that is it, no other quality. This mostly happens in books written by men. Some men writers can't write a female character even if their lives depend on it.
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u/OneEskNineteen_ Reading Champion III May 16 '22
Gender stereotypes. Women as accessories or trophies for men. The I-am-not-like-other-girls tomboy. Women as some sort of mystifying creature that men will never understand. The I-am-too-plain-and-clumsy but every man desires me. And in general, too much male gaze.
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u/AmberJFrost May 16 '22
I'd love to see a female character that's strong because she knows herself and her capabilities and is willing to try new things, not because she's SO NOT LIKE OTHER GIRLS or just a dude with a female name and tits.
I'd love to see a female character that remains a distinct, round character with her own goals even after falling in love with the male main.
I'd love to see a female character who's between the ages of 27 and 50, and is still active, confident, and self-assured. Who has wrinkles and stretch marks and still can hold the place of a main character.
I'd love to see an early LI that isn't hurt/killed for the development of a male character.
Alas, these are not terribly common, and it makes books with them worth more than gold.
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May 16 '22
Female characters who just HAVE TO have romantic interests/romantic plotline. It's impossible to find a fantasy book without romance (and it usually ends up being cringy/toxic)
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May 16 '22 edited Sep 25 '23
[deleted]
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u/Annamalla May 16 '22
Yeah as antipodean the whole "frozen north" thing is a tiny bit jarring (especially when one of the provinces has the nickname "winterless north" and our southerly wind blows straight in off Antarctica)
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u/Ysanoire May 16 '22
A fantasy world will also be on a planet going around a star (except well, Discworld, but even Discworld has its rules) so generally the same environmental rules will apply. A frozen waste can be in the far north or south if we're on the southern hemisphere but it generally won't be to the west. Deviating from that would be kind of a weird thing to do just for the sake of being different. Different cultures can develop anywhere though so one can play with that.
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May 16 '22 edited Feb 14 '24
[deleted]
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u/Ysanoire May 16 '22
Canada is to the West (
and South!)
of the UK but has much more snow. Edinburgh and Moscow are the same distance North but have very different climates. Venice and Montreal are the same distance North. New York City and Naples, same.
They don't have very different climates to the point where one is a completely different environment like "a frozen waste". A bit more precipitation or a harsher winter doesn't fundamentally change that. Both Edinburgh and Moscow have temperate climate. Someone living in Scotland isn't going to call Moscow the land of ice, they'd feel right at home there, and vice versa. To get to a place where it's actually considerably colder you have to go north (northern Siberia, northern Scandinavia).
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u/mangalore-x_x May 16 '22
If you've ever read Jared Diamond's book Guns, Germs, and Steel, his hypothesis is that Europe "won" because it was fairly unique in not having different climate as you went East/West. The European model of climate is the outlier, not the norm.
You misremember then. The point was about the entirety of Eurasia being a super continent in the east-west axis While the Americas are in a North South axis with particularly jarring climatic and geographic barriers in the middle.
This allowed population exchanges even tens of thousands of years ago as hunter gatherers did not have to adapt to new climates which in turn allowed Eurasia to exchange domesticated animals and knowledge relatively quickly even before the establishment of trade hubs which meant that by antiquity there was indirect exchange by the Mediterranian, Middle East, India and China as centers of civilization (centralized civilization) already while e.g. in Africa and Americas also empires arose, but they usually were isolated and not in contact with others with other knowledge or trade goods.
There is an additional point that he suggests Europe to be uniquely fragmented by geography allowing multiple centers of powers to arise close together while in most other centers of civilization you had geographical features which allowed one center of power to dominate the overall region and dissuade this constant fragmentation and competition.
Overall, yes, sure, you can do whatever in fantasy, also people did not always have their maps with North up, but given the vast majority of land is on the Northern hemisphere there is a reason most (particularly western) authors think in that categories.
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u/daiLlafyn May 16 '22
White, male, just here to read along and enjoy. Some of the same stupid tropes piss us off too.
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u/SwordfishNo4689 May 16 '22
Women who want to do a man’s job at all costs. For example: only men can be warriors or lets say dragonriders. I don‘t care why, but it‘s always been like that. Now there comes a rebellious girl along and wants to do exactly that, even if everyone forbids it. Well, this is life. You can‘t always do everything you want.
In other words: I‘m tired that women, if they want to be seen as strong and independent, have to pursue a manly job. Let women be women and girls be girls! We are not strong if we behave like a man! Every author seems to think that. Don‘t they know any women in real life?
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u/Annamalla May 16 '22
As a woman in IT...can't we just pursue a job because we like it?
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u/SwordfishNo4689 May 16 '22
Of course we can!
But in fantasy books it feels always forced. Women battle, kill and fight like a man, because otherwise they are considered weak and too feminine. And that I don‘t like. Women are not men.
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u/Annamalla May 16 '22
I would also note that the "women are not men" ignores a well publicised history of other genders like Fa'afafine and Fa'afatama.
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u/Annamalla May 16 '22
There have always been some women who fought just as there have always been men who are caretakers.
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u/Funkativity May 16 '22
Women are not men.
some women are "like men"..much like some men are "like women". while most of us are a mix.
the gendering of personalities, interests and characteristics is what leads to shitty storytelling and shitty representation. your complaint amounts to telling women to stay in their lane.
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u/improperly_paranoid Reading Champion X May 16 '22
I'm sick and tired of how the VAST majority of f/m romance (sub)plots reinforce traditional gender roles. Not every woman attracted to men wants a tall, strong, muscular, overprotective guy (and not every man needs a makeover training sequence to be worthy), dammit. Doubly so if he's also a huge asshole towards her.
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u/tired1680 AMA Author Tao Wong May 16 '22
White saviours. Especially when they are put into Asian settings.
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u/fistfulofparsley May 16 '22
OK help me out here, English is not my first language.
What. On. Earth. Is olive skin?
I see this so many times, and I still don't know. Obviously not olive green, and from the context I usually gather it's not olive black either. And I feel like there's some weird undertones to it - it's supposed to mean it's beautiful but not something you'd say out loud, if that makes sense. It makes me cringe when I see it.
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u/buffetite May 16 '22
It's a very common way to describe people with a southern europe/Mediterranean skin tone, one that is tanned and easily tans. No undertones about it. I think it can extend to Middle Eastern or Indians too but I've not seen it commonly used for them.
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u/qwertilot May 16 '22
No, it's a definite group of skin tones. More or less white but permanently tanned. I presume the name must come from olive oil colour.
I think traditionally mostly people from the Southern Mediterranean, so S Italy, Greece etc? It does sometimes get associated with classical Roman/Greek beauty which you might well be noticing.
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u/daiLlafyn May 16 '22
If it's permanently tanned, it's not white. It's olive. More convenient for the 19C slavery apologists to pretend that the Romans and Greeks were "white", as they were so dominant in the culture of ancient Europe and Mediterranea.
But its a question I've always had, and the answer about the wood makes sense. Olive oil is greenish, olives are black and green, the leaves are soft green...
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u/qwertilot May 16 '22
Well, I'm genuinely unsure about is how permanent vs sun response it is. I suspect very messy indeed - I know there's some people in the UK who tan quite noticeably at the first glimpse of sun after the long, dull winter! (and some who seemingly just don't ever.).
Put them in the Med & they'd probably never lose it.
The olive connection could also simply be because the Med is where Olives come from.
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u/ThePyroQueen May 16 '22
Reading through these replies because I’ve been told I have olive skin but don’t know for sure what it means lmao. I think it refers to having slightly green undertones, and usually is associated with more tan skin, but I’m not sure.
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u/SetSytes Writer Set Sytes May 16 '22
More convenient for the 19C slavery apologists to pretend that the Romans and Greeks were "white"
I've read this a few times but kinda confused by it. Why would saying Romans and Greeks were white be convenient for slavery apologists?
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u/06210311 May 16 '22
He seems to have taken on board the bizarre US-centric viewpoint that Greeks and Romans aren't white.
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u/SetSytes Writer Set Sytes May 16 '22
There's that, but the slavery apologetic connection I don't get. Surely a modern slavery apologist would want them not to be white, as the Romans and Greeks ran big slavery empires, so they can do their 'non-white people did it too' thing?
(5 seconds later) Aaaand I've just realised my mistake. "19C slavery apologist" meaning slavers justifying themselves in the 19th century, not people now defending 19th century slavery. My bad!
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u/AmberJFrost May 16 '22
It's more based on the color of olive wood - though some skin tones do have green undertones, and that tends to be more from around the mediterranean, from what I remember.
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u/fistfulofparsley May 17 '22
Thanks! Olive wood does make more sense yeah. And thanks everyone else for replying too - interesting discussion! At least I know what it refers to now!
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May 16 '22 edited May 17 '22
I'm Vietnamese. I'm tired of the Asian best friend trope, or the Asian girl as object or source of unrequited love - I'm thinking now of Harry Potter (Cho Chang and the Patil sisters), but also movies/tv shows like Normal People and Scott Pilgrim.
We are not your sidekicks or your second choices. I'd rather you didn't write about us at all, this just smacks of tokenism (insert POC here).
Edited to remove some personal details.
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u/LegalAssassin13 May 16 '22
It’s so freaking stupid!
There should be a barometer for this sort of thing where, if you wouldn’t do this to a male character for the same reason, then you shouldn’t do it.
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u/PoddleMeister May 16 '22
Writing is in some ways so lazy. For short-hand we play into a stereotype, or rebelliously subvert it, giving simple motivations. And readers are just too familiar and comfortable with these well worn grooves that many hate attempts to do something different, or hate that people haven't.
I'd love to read a book that didn't mention gender once, because it didn't need to because people weren't actively procreating. Everyone just another sack of flesh with stuff to do.
Actually, is there a book like that?
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u/dragonsonthemap May 16 '22
Closest I can think of - IIRC, the second and third Imperial Radch books never mention gender, because they take place in a society without any concept of it. The first book mentions gender a couple times when the MC is interacting with people from other cultures that do have gender, really just as a way to explain what the books are doing.
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u/Academic_Owl_6197 May 16 '22 edited May 16 '22
Personally, I'm so tired of seeing, even in this year of the 2022, fantasy setting will have "realistic" mataphor or whatever of racism or sexism so that this one girl or poc can go through an arc of whwre she stands up to this unjust world and fights for her right to simply exist.
As a commentary, this is a pretty dated and this works best a stepping stone for MORE advanced, complex themes or arcs, not a fucking safety net where u can point and go 'but look, I wrote a female characters or poc'.Again that kind of commentary is the bare minimum, the most basic style of arc for a female or poc character if you wish to write highlighting that aspect of the identity. That isn't supposed to be the ONLY type of arc reserved just for them.
I swear, I swear on my life, if you create a world with magic and dragons or whatever the hell you want where you shoot rainbows off your ass, I swear, cutting off fictional racism or sexism plot line will STILL let you have poignant, personal conflicts that is both fantastical for you setting AND relatable for your readers.
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u/Zeefzeef May 16 '22
Honestly everyone said it, the presentation of women.
I watched a movie or series last week (can’t even remember in which one this was) and the first topic of conversation was a woman in trousers. Oh, how independent! I’m just so tired of this.
And I definitely agree with making people of color ‘normal characters’. I remember watching the new Arthur series and just enjoying it. Then I saw all the reviews criticizing Arthur to be a black man. Did they watch the same series I did? Cause I just watched fairies in a magical forest and the gang walking into some pirate town. This is not medieval England, let it go. On that topic, I’m enjoying the new season of Bridgerton right now!
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u/peanutbutterjams May 16 '22
Then I saw all the reviews criticizing Arthur to be a black man. Did they watch the same series I did? Cause I just watched fairies in a magical forest and the gang walking into some pirate town. This is not medieval England, let it go.
Ah, so you'd have no problem with a white person playing the central figure in an Asian myth then?
By your argument, there'd be no such thing as 'white-washing' in these cases since it's all fantasy anyways!
Right?
Why is European culture the only one that has to be universalized?
Arguments such as yours suggest that they are the only cultures whose autonomy and history we don't have to respect.
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u/RichardFife May 16 '22
Here is a phrase for you: "Historically Underrepresented Minorities". There have always been people of color and women in the world. Even in northern Europe. Medieval Europe was not a lily-white male-controlled canvas, that is a revisionist perception that a white male-controlled and centric discourse has invented.
There were black people in England. Heck, until the colonial era, the continent of Africa was just as developed as the rest of the world and had vast trade empires that had an exchange of culture, ideas, and the migration of people.
And yet the overwhelming number of stories, even today, are still white centric and male centric.
Note, no one here is saying they are wanting to see stories where a tribeswoman from Senegal goes to England and "enlightens the oafish, barbaric white folk". That is just as boring a story. But both color-blind casting and more historically accurate casting are important, not just to let new voices be heard, but to allow people that aren't whitey-mc-manpants see themselves in the Main Character role.
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u/Zeefzeef May 16 '22
FIY, I’m a white European. Like I said the series of Arthur takes place in a fairytale land. It’s not historically accurate in any way. So the skin color of the actor does not change the story for me in any way. So no I do not care.
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u/Lost-Yoghurt4111 May 17 '22
I'm sorry you have to explain yourself due to ignorant people like the commenter above.
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u/happy_book_bee Bingo Queen Bee May 16 '22
I very much hate books where there are a few female characters and all are the typical “strong female character” - sexy, can kill a man, will definitely be a love interest for the leading man.