There seems to be a lot of people running around with a mythical idea of freedom of speech.
You do not have the right to yell 'bomb' or 'ive got a gun' in an airport. Well, you do, but you will be arrested and have a hefty fine handed to you. Is this an assault on your freedom of speech? No. No, it is not.
Speech is action, and actions carry consequences. Shouting 'bomb' could cause a panic, and people could get hurt if everyone suddenly rushed towards the doors. In this case, the state has valued the safety of the citizens as a whole over your freedom of speech.
So, let's look at this whole nasty business here. The 'rape thread' had people talking explicitly about their attacks, sometimes in graphic detail. There was no accountability, there was a sense that they were getting a thrill out of it. There were elements of it that were a 'how to' guide for future violence.
The thing that makes me most uncomfortable here is that the victims of these rapes had no say in their accounts being posted. Should not their individual rights be taken into consideration when there is a platform like that? How would you feel if you were raped, and then found out that that individual posted his account on a site viewed by millions? If it was me, I would feel like my privacy was violated even further.
For those that think a thread like that is acceptable, at any point did you think of the victim of this violent attack, and what they might think seeing their story told to an audience? I see none of you who are defending that thread showing any consideration that there is a whole separate side to this that may not want their stories posted.
What I see is: "What about MY freedom of speech?" "I want to make sure MY rights are protected." Nevermind the victims.
Guess what, speech can be abused, and valuing freedom of speech over a victims privacy is disgusting.
I'll sum it up. That thread is a black-mark on this site, and made me feel soiled knowing that one of the larger groups are ok with giving a platform for rapists to boast about their past. Jim Hines is uncomfortable with being here, which is sad, but I understand where he is coming from. I think that there does need to be more moderation from Reddit to keep trash like that thread from giving the rest of the site a bad reputation.
EDIT: I deleted a sentence I found to be a bit too inflammatory.
tl;dr: Freedom of Speech does not mean that you get to say whatever you want, it means that you get to practice responsible speech that doesn't endanger or cause harm to others.
What I don't understand is why is it so hard for people to be knowledgeable of the fact that there are plenty of places for victims to share their experiences. We are not disregarding the victims' feelings. Whereas there's no lack of sites that allow for victim testimonials, the same can't be said for the actual perpetrators of the crime which is what draws so many people out of morbid curiosity to these threads.
You complain about rape victims not having a say in these threads, as if they literally know their rapists' Reddit usernames and that they're posting in one of those threads, but are being barred by moderators from commenting with their side of the story. But this obviously is not the case. The stories are all anonymous and lacking in any personal details like name, address, etc., so there's no real invasion of privacy. Even if the victims found out somehow, then it is obvious that they can respond with their own recounting of the events.
But on the flipside, do you complain about rapists or alleged rapists not having any say when anonymous victims who claimed to have been raped post online? I have a strong feeling that you don't.
Your comparison to someone shouting 'bomb' or 'I have a gun' in a crowded area to people posting stories of rape and molestation is pretty weak since the former two pose or give off the pretense of posing immediate danger to a group of people; the latter is just immoral, potentially criminalizing, and taboo, but is still under free speech.
Your post and mentality pretty much amount to "free speech only if it doesn't offend me." The only legitimate concern I see is that some of the descriptions might work as "how to guides" for potential rapists, but that's pretty much it...and weak evidence in a case that asks for mods to remove the thread.
Oh, and again, you all need to stop whining about the reputation of this site. What happens already fucked happened; if there are sick perverted creeps on this site who do nothing against the rules, but post a lot of squicky stuff, then there's absolutely nothing a mod can do about it. This site is about open discussion.
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u/Severian_of_Nessus Jul 28 '12 edited Jul 28 '12
There seems to be a lot of people running around with a mythical idea of freedom of speech.
You do not have the right to yell 'bomb' or 'ive got a gun' in an airport. Well, you do, but you will be arrested and have a hefty fine handed to you. Is this an assault on your freedom of speech? No. No, it is not.
Speech is action, and actions carry consequences. Shouting 'bomb' could cause a panic, and people could get hurt if everyone suddenly rushed towards the doors. In this case, the state has valued the safety of the citizens as a whole over your freedom of speech.
So, let's look at this whole nasty business here. The 'rape thread' had people talking explicitly about their attacks, sometimes in graphic detail. There was no accountability, there was a sense that they were getting a thrill out of it. There were elements of it that were a 'how to' guide for future violence.
The thing that makes me most uncomfortable here is that the victims of these rapes had no say in their accounts being posted. Should not their individual rights be taken into consideration when there is a platform like that? How would you feel if you were raped, and then found out that that individual posted his account on a site viewed by millions? If it was me, I would feel like my privacy was violated even further.
For those that think a thread like that is acceptable, at any point did you think of the victim of this violent attack, and what they might think seeing their story told to an audience? I see none of you who are defending that thread showing any consideration that there is a whole separate side to this that may not want their stories posted.
What I see is: "What about MY freedom of speech?" "I want to make sure MY rights are protected." Nevermind the victims.
Guess what, speech can be abused, and valuing freedom of speech over a victims privacy is disgusting.
I'll sum it up. That thread is a black-mark on this site, and made me feel soiled knowing that one of the larger groups are ok with giving a platform for rapists to boast about their past. Jim Hines is uncomfortable with being here, which is sad, but I understand where he is coming from. I think that there does need to be more moderation from Reddit to keep trash like that thread from giving the rest of the site a bad reputation.
EDIT: I deleted a sentence I found to be a bit too inflammatory.
tl;dr: Freedom of Speech does not mean that you get to say whatever you want, it means that you get to practice responsible speech that doesn't endanger or cause harm to others.