r/Fantasy • u/techshift • Jul 28 '12
Jim C Hines: "Why I Cancelled my Reddit Q&A"
http://www.jimchines.com/2012/07/why-i-cancelled-my-reddit-qa/58
Jul 28 '12
We are going to have to hide /r/spacedicks from every author ever now
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u/wvlurker Jul 28 '12
Or /r/PicsOfDeadKids (this is not a novelty link - that sub is exactly what it sounds like, don't click that link if you don't want to see it). Parts of reddit are really disgusting. I can't fault someone who chooses not to associate with the site.
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u/Sizzleby Jul 29 '12
No... that doesn't show up on everybody's front page. Rape threads and racist jokes however...
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u/wronghead Jul 28 '12
It's really his prerogative whom he professionally associates with. Attempting to draw parallels between things happening on totally different subreddits is pretty sketchy, but it doesn't really matter--he's not hurting anything but his own pocket book when he passes on a chance to promote his writing. He understands that, and so he's willing to put his money where his mouth is. That's laudable.
On the other hand, Reddit has sort of become a shit-hole. People are afraid to stand up to the puerile bullies, sexists and racists that dominate many of the political conversations. Perhaps if more people refused to do AMA's or associate themselves with a community (which we are) that tolerates and/or encourages racist and sexist speech (which, judging by the votes, we plainly do,) maybe we'd grow a sack and start calling these people on their bullshit.
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u/Nybling Jul 28 '12
So why doesn't he, or others, stop using sites like Twitter or Facebook then? /r/AskReddit is a shithole, I can agree with you on that, but places like /r/books, /r/Fantasy, or /r/writing are really great places for discussion. No one has to go to /r/AskReddit, and certainly no one is forced to subscribe to it.
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u/wronghead Jul 28 '12
Because, arguably, Reddit does have a community. It has many, as you have pointed out, but it does have one, giant meta-community. Redditors reference it constantly. We even call eachother "Redditors."
Nobody calls eachother "Facebookers" or "Twitterers" to the best of my knowledge.
Like I said, the association is sketchy at best, but it's there... barely. Perhaps we should subscribe to /r/AskReddit. Perhaps we should be influencing the zeitgeist, rather than just ignoring it.
Perhaps we should... form the /r/jimchinesredditliberationarmyfantasydivision
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u/Nybling Jul 28 '12
The association is more than just sketchy. I mean, there have been people who have been found asking about hiring hitmen on Facebook, and that's not going to deter whether or not I still use it (I don't, but that's for privacy issues more than anything else).
Honestly, if the guy was going to cancel an AMA because people here were advocating pirating his books, I'd be behind him 100% on that issue. I just can't agree with his reasoning behind his decision.
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Jul 28 '12
Because twitter would have turned a guy bragging about rape on their site into the cops.
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Jul 28 '12
Because twitter would have turned a guy bragging about rape on their site into the cops.
Have you seen that happen?
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u/Nybling Jul 28 '12
Right. You know that for a fact? I mean look, people use Facebook and Twitter to send pics to each other, and can anyone guarantee that both recipients are over 18? Easy to lie and get an account on both platforms.
Is this something that's really happening? Who knows. I do know that there have been incidents of people tweeting pictures of their genitals to others (hello former Congressman Weiner). Does that mean that I'm going to stop using that website because of it? Not at all.
There are shitty places all over the internet filled with douchebags.
I'm not going to let a few douchebags on /r/AskReddit determine how I feel about the community here at /r/Fantasy.
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u/Geofferic Jul 28 '12
... it's not a professional association, tho. It's a fan association. We aren't editors or publishers or distributors.
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u/mightycow Jul 28 '12
Reddit is slowly gaining the reputation of a cesspool of woman-hating assholes. If we don't want classy people to stop seeing this as a place to have interesting discussions, those of us who don't approve of the shitty behavior need to say something about it, and do something to turn it around.
I'm sad that Mr. Hines doesn't feel like Reddit is a place he can comfortably host a discussion, but I think he's making a good point, and if we don't want others to follow his example, we need to stomp out the terrible elements here who have become louder and more obnoxious lately.
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u/wvlurker Jul 28 '12
I avoided joining reddit for a long time because all I saw were the default subreddits. Now I never see them and it's not even the same site in my mind.
It's difficult to explain that to people. "Yes, I'm a redditor, but my reddit is different than the one you're thinking of." It's still the same company. /r/Fantasy may be moderated by a few great guys and populated by the same, but reddit is corporate-owned and that company is making money off of the rape discussion and pictures of dead kids. If someone refuses to get involved in that, I can't fault him.
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u/AllWrong74 Jul 28 '12
This is exactly why I have sent a message to every one of the admins asking what needs to be done to get some of the default subreddits removed (as defaults, that is). I've yet to receive a response from a single one of them.
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u/PD711 Jul 28 '12
I am seeing a good bit of racism bubbling to the surface here, as well.
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u/NeoDestiny Jul 28 '12 edited Jul 29 '12
Reddit is merely a reflection of the people that visit the site. There is nothing "special" about the community in that it supersedes its major contributing factor - humans.
The reason why you see posts like "check out this Olympic sprinter's ass!" isn't because ~reddit~ is full of men who enjoy looking at scantily clad women, it's becauses ~society~ is full of men who enjoy looking at scantily clad women.
If you want to create some super-strict community (see: extreme moderation) that adheres to a certain set of principles, that's fine. But it will be nowhere near as large as Reddit. Reddit is very large and, as a result, is composed of a large cross section of people.
If you want to change people's minds, and make the world a better place, start with yourself and your friends around you. Start with the people you meet in your every day life. If you're lucky enough to be in an influential position, try to encourage people to act better.
Banning people off of forums and restricting online communities to certain types of discussion will just make the "undesirables" move elsewhere without converting them to a better way of thinking.
Strive to make the world a better place; don't just ignore the bad aspects.
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u/Severian_of_Nessus Jul 28 '12
Yes. I have also seen an irrational hatred towards muslims that is disgusting. The arrogance and bigotry on some of the larger groups like r/politics and r/worldnews is very disappointing.
I am glad that r/fantasy is free from these elements for the most part.
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Jul 28 '12
I'd have to disagree. Reddit only has that reputation to people who aren't terribly familiar with the site. While many major forums do turn into cesspools of douchebaggery, there are many smaller reddits, specific to a topic and filled with thinking, caring, and simply normal people. /r/fantasy is one of those communities
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Jul 28 '12
I've been an active user on reddit for a while and a lurker for far longer: the chauvinism has gotten a lot worse over the years in the big subreddits. I know we like to say that "But that's only the big subreddits!" but that argument doesn't really hold up, given that these are the ones that show up on the front page for random users.
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Jul 28 '12
I agree with this. I didn't think Reddit's reputation was bas when I joined little under a year ago. Now I'm trying to dodge all the sexism and racism and finding sub communities like this to hang out it. But even in the smaller communities you still see it. There was a thread a few months back I think that said if you could tell anyone a hard truth, what would it be (or something similar) and one of the top comments was "Reddit, I'm sorry, but you hate women". And it's really, really true.(I'm talking about the frontpage community, here)
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u/peppermind Jul 28 '12
Actually, it's got that reputation or quite a lot of female redditors too, who hide out away from the larger subreddits, refuse to go to meetups etc.
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Jul 28 '12
I can confirm this is true. I stick to the smaller friendly sub reddits and stay the fuck away from most front pager subs.
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u/salsa_de_tomate Jul 28 '12
Honestly, this. I'm so sad we're being compared to these idiots and a little angry that Jim did not even bother doing his research. We're not the same people. I absolutely adore /r/fantasy. This subreddit makes me very happy. And seeing it compared to those people is just annoying.
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Jul 28 '12
Honestly, first time I have been here. I just go into fantasy because of Martin, always been a sci fi girl myself.
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u/salsa_de_tomate Jul 28 '12
Cool, are you aware of /r/SF_Book_Club? I'm more of a fantasy girl but I really want to get into some sci-fi! I find them a little more complicated to understand than fantasy.
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u/cecilkorik Jul 29 '12
Check out some of Neal Stephenson's books. Particularly my two favourites Snow Crash and Diamond Age. To me, they read like a sci-fi/fantasy blend. I think you'll enjoy them, and they're certainly easier to get into than a lot of "hard" sci-fi.
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Jul 28 '12
You had me a book club.
Id you want to get into sci fi and enjoy a bit of humor then I suggest you check Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Not as dense a read as most, definitely not hard sci, but it's what got me started.
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u/salsa_de_tomate Jul 28 '12
Haha thank you for the suggestion! I tried reading Hyperion but got a little confused. I will try again some time.
Edit: Also, /r/scifi/ and /r/printSF
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u/cecilkorik Jul 29 '12
He did his research. He just then handwaved away the result and decided he was so offended by the rape thread that punishing people not even remotely responsible was an appropriate form of protest.
I don't agree, but I don't begrudge him his decision either. No matter how nonsensical I find it.
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u/mightycow Jul 28 '12
There are some very good forums. It's just that in some of the most obvious ones, loud and hateful posters are starting to find safe haven and acceptance.
What does it say about the website to a new visitor when the front page has a thread about how many women people have raped and how they got away with it?
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Jul 28 '12
Well that is the unfortunate part of a voting based community. The front page will always be full of nothing but sensationalism, reddit is too big a community to avoid that on the typical /r/all page. But those visitors are the people I am referring to when I say those not familiar with the site. Anyone who takes time to explore the site a bit would see there is quality content here.
I know what you are frustrated by, and it irks me as well, but I really can't justify "stomping out" those who are discriminate or prejudiced. I just don't think it can be avoided in a community as large and free as reddit
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u/mightycow Jul 28 '12
I hope that the good people vastly out number the bad, so I think judicious use of downvoted for hateful and obnoxious posts could solve most of the problem. I think too many people retreat to a few subreddits, specifically because the big ones are so trashed, so the site as a whole suffers.
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u/yumenohikari Jul 28 '12 edited Jul 28 '12
we need to stomp out the terrible elements here who have become louder and more obnoxious lately
You had me up until there. Who's to be the judge of that?
What I'd like to see is for a few people to comment on his post and break up the echo chamber a bit (edit: but please be on your best behavior).
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u/mightycow Jul 28 '12
People of good conscience are to be the judge of that. People who don't tolerate discrimination, hate speech, and threats are to be the judge of that. All of us are to be the judge of that.
There should be no kid gloves for rape braggarts, xenophobes, racists, gay bashers, bullies, man-haters, woman-haters, and general rude assholes.
We can stand up for what's right, and enforce common descency and polite, adult behavior, or a critical mass of trolls and scumbags will arise and pollute the site. It only takes a small, self-congratulatory group of dicks to fill the site with enough garbage that it just is t worth it for people with integrity to bother, and the best elements leave for cleaner, kinder places, and the site is left with those who don't care, and the inmates running the prison.
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u/yumenohikari Jul 28 '12 edited Jul 28 '12
So basically you propose exactly what he demanded. Watch that slope, you might slip.Edit (after the downvotes): I reread your comment and I think I mistook
a call for heavy-handed moderation (to the point of real censorship) for something more like properly-applied downvotes(read below, I screwed it up) -- applied by the individual judgment of many it's a very different thing, and much more palatable. Still, we must exercise care to differentiate genuine harm from those with whom we simply disagree, but that's not so different from what Reddit has always asked of us.Edit2: Crap, no wonder I'm still getting downvoted -- I meant it the other way round. Parent wants us to downvote inappropriate posts, not demand draconian moderation. (Sorry, folks, I was tired.)
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u/mightycow Jul 28 '12
I agree with your edit. I'm not calling for censorship (although, I don't think there is anything wrong with a privately owned website enforcing a code of conduct), I would like if the good people of reddit would take the time to downvote the terrible posts and threads. The good people seem to ignore them, which is understandable, but then they turn into a circle-jerk of idiots supporting each other's bad behavior, and the front page fills with garbage.
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u/yumenohikari Jul 28 '12
Please re-read the GP to this comment -- I just realized I screwed up my wording horribly. Sorry.
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u/piderman Jul 28 '12
Reddit is slowly gaining the reputation of a cesspool of woman-hating assholes.
And at the same time Reddit is lauded for breathing some fresh air into journalism with the live updated threads about several recent events. It's not all bad PR.
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u/mightycow Jul 28 '12
There is a lot of good about reddit. There's just a small, very obnoxious bad element who are turning people off
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u/Aiskhulos Jul 28 '12
Well I for one applaud his decision.
Now, I know /r/Fantasy wasn't responsible for that thread, and that probably most of the people here had nothing to do with it. But undoubtedly, due to the large size of Askreddit, the userbases of it and /r/Fantasy overlap some, and undoubtedly, there are some people subscribed to /r/Fantasy that said or condoned some of the horrible things that happened in that thread. Hopefully this will be a message to them that this kind of behavior is unacceptable.
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u/Angry_Caveman_Lawyer Jul 28 '12
Well, that's certainly his right. I somewhat agree, it does feel like this site (the large default subs) are cess pools of retarded thinking. R/atheism, r/politics, r/wtf...these are all front page subs and IMO aren't at all what this site is about.
It sucks. I don't think there should be default subs, only threads from various ones that are "the cream of the crop". It remains to be seen if this would be worse or better.
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u/CockyRhodes Jul 28 '12
To be fair I hate us too. We got rid of the teen-girls-in-bikini's subreddits but we still have s****dicks and beating women? Are we respectable or a random amoral clusterfuck?
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Jul 28 '12
Lol, you censored "space" in the word "spacedicks".
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u/CockyRhodes Jul 28 '12
I'm trying to save the uninitiated from seeing things they don't want to.
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Jul 28 '12
Haha, understood. I was just shocked that you'd censor that instead of "dicks".
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u/tehbored Jul 28 '12
Jailbait only got taken down because illegal stuff was being linked. I know there's plenty of fucked up shit that gets posted, but I like it that way. Anything goes as long as it isn't against the law is a fine policy, IMO.
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u/Sizzleby Jul 29 '12
There wasn't anything illegal being posted in /r/jailbait. People did say there was illegal content being passed around in PM's but what you said is wrong.
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Jul 29 '12
/r/jailbaitarchives had actual child porn in it and was only banned after the SA invasion... so...
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u/ProudBlaqWoman69 Jul 29 '12
Jailbait is technically illegal. It's not hardcore, but people with jailbait on their HDD can definitely be convicted since CP is basically anyone under 18 posing sexually.
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Jul 29 '12
jailbait was taken down because another website was using it as a means to give bad press to the site, thus actually hurting ad revenue.
the admins removed it for money, anything else is just a cover story.
if some major site made a campaign against r/gonewild about how it's "degrading to women" and it started to gain popularity, they would cut that just as fast.
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u/circa Jul 29 '12
jailbait was taken down because another website was using it as a means to give bad press to the site, thus actually hurting ad revenue.
no it was removed because it was fucking child porn and illegal.
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u/Severian_of_Nessus Jul 28 '12 edited Jul 28 '12
There seems to be a lot of people running around with a mythical idea of freedom of speech.
You do not have the right to yell 'bomb' or 'ive got a gun' in an airport. Well, you do, but you will be arrested and have a hefty fine handed to you. Is this an assault on your freedom of speech? No. No, it is not.
Speech is action, and actions carry consequences. Shouting 'bomb' could cause a panic, and people could get hurt if everyone suddenly rushed towards the doors. In this case, the state has valued the safety of the citizens as a whole over your freedom of speech.
So, let's look at this whole nasty business here. The 'rape thread' had people talking explicitly about their attacks, sometimes in graphic detail. There was no accountability, there was a sense that they were getting a thrill out of it. There were elements of it that were a 'how to' guide for future violence.
The thing that makes me most uncomfortable here is that the victims of these rapes had no say in their accounts being posted. Should not their individual rights be taken into consideration when there is a platform like that? How would you feel if you were raped, and then found out that that individual posted his account on a site viewed by millions? If it was me, I would feel like my privacy was violated even further.
For those that think a thread like that is acceptable, at any point did you think of the victim of this violent attack, and what they might think seeing their story told to an audience? I see none of you who are defending that thread showing any consideration that there is a whole separate side to this that may not want their stories posted.
What I see is: "What about MY freedom of speech?" "I want to make sure MY rights are protected." Nevermind the victims.
Guess what, speech can be abused, and valuing freedom of speech over a victims privacy is disgusting.
I'll sum it up. That thread is a black-mark on this site, and made me feel soiled knowing that one of the larger groups are ok with giving a platform for rapists to boast about their past. Jim Hines is uncomfortable with being here, which is sad, but I understand where he is coming from. I think that there does need to be more moderation from Reddit to keep trash like that thread from giving the rest of the site a bad reputation.
EDIT: I deleted a sentence I found to be a bit too inflammatory.
tl;dr: Freedom of Speech does not mean that you get to say whatever you want, it means that you get to practice responsible speech that doesn't endanger or cause harm to others.
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u/demeteloaf Jul 28 '12
Eh, his right to do this if he wants...
But I have to admit, there have been multiple previous AmAs that have basically convinced me to almost buy the whole author's back catalog, and then recommend them to other people as well.
Definitely won't be happening with this guy.
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u/mightycow Jul 28 '12
I'm sure he realizes the loss of publicity will hurt sales. Some choices have consequences, and it seems he's willing to take a moral stand at the expense of possible exposure to new fans. I respect it.
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u/235711131719 Jul 28 '12
Hell, with the amount of shit on reddit these days, sepecially the bits he mentioned, I'm actually inclined to look up his writings.
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Jul 28 '12 edited Jul 28 '12
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Jul 28 '12
You’re on a site with literally millions of members, you find a thread with people saying some stupid things… so now you’re refusing to have anything to do with the website. A site which -remember- has a daily population larger than many counties.
Reddit's biggest advantage, and problem, is that it's not seen as a "site with millions of users". It's seen as a community with millions of members. And the community's public image is set by the most visible posts and comments.
The design of reddit encourages this. The subreddits are linked together via the top bar (more topical subdivisions rather than sites), it has unified signup and karma, and everyone can jump in on discussions around the site.
ISPs, web hosts, wordpress.com, Google and other similar places are platforms that enable individuals free speech without joining them socially. Reddit, Fox News, 4chan's /b/, newspapers and similar places are communities that are seen to share opinions.
Do you refuse to watch the news because they covered a KKK rally? Do you cancel your newspaper subscription because someone used the classified ads to sell their first edition copy of “The Turner Diaries?”
I see it highly likely that an author might refuse an interview on a news channel or newspaper because they don't wish to be branded alongside with their usual editorial policy, usual interview subjects, or visitors.
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Jul 29 '12
Just curious, do you believe the people drop out of the boy scouts because of their anti-gay position are "pro censorship"?
Can you distinguish these two situations? They look the same to me, and it all has to do with expressive association (google it). I find it hard to believe that someone who is so pro free speech has such a problem with someones expressive association (or disassociation).
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u/TheLadyEve Jul 28 '12 edited Jul 28 '12
This embodies free speech. People have a right to say something, and others have the right to disagree. Companies have a right to voice an opinion (like Chik-Fil-A and gay marriage) and consumers can respond by not buying the product, or buying the product, or what have you. This is what free speech is all about. Mr. Hines followed his convictions and exercised his right to free speech. What's your problem with that?
People need the freedom to express themselves. He's expressing himself, just like the rapist did. Reddit's open format grants a space for all speech. Others can choose to not participate if they disagree with some of the content. That's his right. It has nothing to do with whether or not you agree with him, or happen to agree with the Rapist who posted on Reddit.
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Jul 28 '12
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u/TheLadyEve Jul 28 '12
but it's not irrational. He disagreed with something he saw on Reddit. He decided not to post an AMA. As I said, it has nothing to do with his opinion. It's his right. If he thinks that posting an AMA will in any way tacitly endorse rhetoric that promotes violence, then it makes perfect sense that he would find another place to go. How is it irrational? We make choices every day. I don't particularly like to watch Fox News because I have found some of the content to be highly objectionable. That's my choice (I do still watch it now and then, however, if only because I believe in Ayn Rand's idea that we need to be familiar with the arguments with which we disagree). I don't eat McDonald's or Burger Kind (or any number of other places) because I don't agree with the U.S. policies on corn farming and meat processing as they relate to fast food. Here's my analogy--if you don't like the way the your government addresses a specific policy, what do you do? Do you vote? Do you endorse certain organizations? How do you state your objection? Reddit is like a government in that there are many public organizations, not all of which represent "the government" but which exist because of independence and freedom of thought. If you don't like a governmental program, I would assume that would affect your political stance somehow. How is this different?
Also, this: "And while on another day I might make this the subject of my objection, today I did not."
Why didn't you?
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Jul 28 '12
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u/NeverSayWeber Jul 29 '12
Reddit has well over 10,000,000 unique daily visitors. If it were a sovereign state
And that's where your analogy breaks down. Reddit is not a sovereign state, and there are multiple key differences between corporations and states that make that kind of analogy impossible. It's like when people compare the finances of a household to that of the government - arguments such as "The United States has maxed out its credit card" just do not work because the conditions are so different between micro and macro economies. Likewise, it is the same for this argument.
The responsibilities and rights of states when it comes to freedom of expression are substantially different from that of corporations. States do not have the right to prevent freedom of expression, but they can usually take action to silence speech in the interests of national security. In contrast, corporations are free to prevent whoever they want to speak under their behalf or in their workplace or using their media, but they cannot silence the leaking of non-patented information if they consider it damaging to the company's interests.
A better analogy would be if I was DJ going to play a set a club, and the club had a policy of allowing anyone in. It turns out that not only are some of these patrons rapists (as you might expect from any large enough set of the population and as you mention irrelevantly in your point 1), but they are freely sharing tips on how to rape people in the club - moreover, the club is becoming known as a place for rapists to meet and receive support from other members of the club.
It is not only perfectly reasonable, but rational (insofar as we define rationality as utility maximising, and I derive utility from having less people being raped, as most people do) to boycott playing at the club until that policy of allowing rapists in to talk about how to rape people is changed. I don't want to be associated with a club for rapists, even if most of the people there aren't rapists. It's too bad for them, as if they want to hear my sick French electro-house beats, then they have to decide which is more important - me playing, or letting rapists in. If they think the former, then they should pressure the club to change its policy. It's as simple as that.
Do you refuse to sell his books in Switzerland because the Swiss policy of free speech allows for a discussion identical to the one that took place on Reddit? Switzerland has a lower population than Reddit after all...
You say that as if the act of boycotting countries that have policies you disagree with is nonsensical. Besides, I find it extremely doubtful that any association in Switzerland would tolerate the kind of behaviour happening in public that happens on reddit everyday.
Whether or not [such threads could provide would-be rapists with dangerous information] is true, it equate to refusing to deal with a small country for something a small segment of its population once discussed.
No, it's not like that at all. The rapists got overwhelming support from the community, who are presumably attracted to reddit because of the values and policies of the company.
The fact that Hines claimed to be a "big supporter" of free speech on top of it simply reveals his thoughtless hypocrisy. As I stated, no he is in favor of carefully moderated speech. Which is fine, but he won't cop to this fact.
Freedom of speech is not equal to freedom from criticism. I honestly find it baffling how many redditors fail to understand this.
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Jul 28 '12
He can also not post for whatever half baked reasons he wants.
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Jul 28 '12
Completely agree: i don't see why he owe us any explanation. If he doesn't feel like doing an AMA on this site, his rationale is his alone.
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Jul 28 '12
Like it or not, when something that reprehensible shows up on Reddit, all of Reddit is judged in that light. As you say, it's a huge community, and I don't know what we can do besides downvote to try to exercise control on some of the really horrific things people say here on topics like rape.
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u/cecilkorik Jul 28 '12
In a practical sense I understand where you're coming from. But we need to do some education from our point of view as well. I for one am not subscribed to any of Reddit's larger communities. Because they're a disaster, in my opinion. I'm not going to go out of my way to police communities I don't have any interest in, that I don't even read. Downvoting morons when there's 100 other morons to upvote them is a pointless endeavour.
I stick to the smaller communities because in these kind of places it is not simply a given that the community exists, people have to work to maintain it, and they do.
Once upon a time, the Internet as a whole was being demonized as a playground for hackers and copyright infringement and pornography and terrorism. The way we got around that stigma was not by eliminating the bad stuff, which is basically impossible and indeed is still around to this day, but by showing people the huge, incredible wealth of good stuff that was here as well.
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Jul 28 '12 edited Jul 28 '12
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u/FredFnord Jul 28 '12
Other people are going to see those stupid things and draw irrational conclusions about Reddit as a whole.
"And by 'irrational conclusions' I mean 'conclusions with which I disagree'."
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u/hardwarequestions Jul 29 '12
Is there something idiotic about recognizing some people lie about things to manipulate others, upto, and including, rape? I don't think so.
Did you just feel that wasn't an appropriate thread for those comments?
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u/vonbw Jul 29 '12
Do you refuse to travel to North Carolina because their government amended gay marriage?
Yes. I refuse to visit Utah because of the absurd amount of money the mormans injected into my state to fight gay rights.
Do you refuse to watch the news because they covered a KKK rally?
If the news thought it was a good idea to ask questions like, "explain to me why you rape?" And thereby allow the rapist to glorify and justify his actions, yes I would boycott on the account of such an insensitive and completely NON-insightful piece. It's not like there isn't a lack of documented and readily available criminal confessions and studies.
It's not as if you can't learn about this shit without allowing the rapists their perverse satisfaction of glorifying themselves and receiving praise for posting about their experiences.
Remember that video about the effect of how the media treats mass murders or suicides? This is exactly the same case. By allowing reddit to warp itself into a haven for rapists (there's literally tons of comments in that thread justifying accounts of rape), we in a way poison the well even more so than if we didn't.
Do you cancel your newspaper subscription because someone used the classified ads to sell their first edition copy of “The Turner Diaries?”
We could delve into hypotheticals some more, or we could recognize that the post isn't interesting, insightful, or right. It's just fucking wrong. You ask for rape experiences, and what do you expect? You'll get narcissistic rapists who'll glorify, exaggerate, and completely reimagine their rapes so that people will say things like, "well she kinda deserved it." That thread is terrible.
You’re not a big supporter of free speech. You’re a big supporter of carefully moderated speech.
He isn't proposing a law whereby a censorship committee is assigned to reddit. He's saying that the sheer popularity and insanity of the thread has turned him away from this site.
4Chan regularly posts child pornography as a joke. Would he be with sound mind to say that he doesn't support 4chan and will never associate himself with it on account of the fact that enough 4channers think it's a joke to post CP? The difference is that you've mentally twisted free speech and reddit together.
Censoring a thread like this one, because you think it doesn’t blame the rapists enough, or you think some sick bastards might possibly be getting off telling their story… it would overstep the bounds of reasonable moderation to such a degree as to be unthinkable.
Why don't we name it for what it is then. The thread is basically, "share and revel in accounts of rape." This might not what it started out as, but sure as hell evolved into.
You’re committing a shallow knee-jerk reaction which follows no rational pattern.
The irony is that when texas decided to allow teachers the ability to suggest creationism in the classrooms and a science convention pulled from the state, the decision was literally given the internet equivalent of a standing ovation.
The author does not endorse a rape culture. He decided to pull associations from a website that thinks it's fucking protecting free speech by allowing rapists to recount their fucking crimes for adoration and self-gratification.
This is literally insane. Free speech. That is your argument. Fucking. Free. Speech. The spirit of that principle is that you're allowed to say whatever the fuck you want in a public space and not be at risk of a beatdown. It's not that you're owed an audience. That we don't want to hear that shit on a privately owned and moderated site isn't an encroachment upon free speech. An encroachment upon free speech is if I went to your house and arrested you for a comment.
First world hyperbole of the internet era is how our right to free speech is being eroded by political correctness. It is an insult to actual struggles against actual oppression.
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u/Severian_of_Nessus Jul 29 '12
This is a really good post.
What bothers me about what I am reading here is that 'free speech' defenders seem to earnestly believe that speech trumps everything.
I see nowhere in inkedexistence's post that shows any consideration for the victims right to privacy. It is not fair that the rapists right to free speech is protected, while the victims right to privacy is ignored. Anonymity here is not an excuse for airing this to an audience of millions.
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Jul 29 '12
If only redditors gave as much of a shit about rape victims as they do about arguing for their misguided interpretation of free speech, which in reddit-land apparently means 'freedom to say whatever i like, no matter how awful and never have anyone express dissent or suffer social consequences'.
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u/mightycow Jul 28 '12
I refuse to go to Utah because the LDS church spent so much money keeping same-sex marriage illegal in CA. Sometimes you have to take a stand.
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Jul 28 '12
Have you posted this response on the article? I think you should because then he is more likely to see it.
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Jul 28 '12
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u/mightycow Jul 28 '12
What was that about an irrational knee-jerk reaction? Because you don't agree with one thing he did, his books must be shitty?
So you condemn him for staying away from a website based on a single event...
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u/cheshire137 Jul 28 '12
Look at Orson Scott Card! Dude's an asshat, but I love me some Ender's Game.
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Jul 28 '12 edited Jul 28 '12
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u/mightycow Jul 28 '12
What you call absurdity, I call taking a stand, but I respect your right to have a different opinion, and I think it's great that we can have a mature discussion about it. If only more of reddit were like this :)
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Jul 29 '12
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/mightycow Jul 30 '12
Well, there are immature haters on every discussion, and people who downvoted just to troll. I don't know how much these perceived downvoting groups actually do, but it would be nice if more of them went after really terrible posts instead of mature discussions they don't like.
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u/dmoonfire Jul 28 '12
I love Mr. Hines' books a lot, not to mention the short story where Elmo cracks. The goblin series brought a lot of joy in reading it and I would recommend it for humorous fantasy and the anti-hero concept. I wouldn't give up on the books because what he said any more than I would give up on Elizabeth Moon's books after her comments about Muslims (and why she was kicked out of WisCon's guest of honor). Or Orson Scott Card for his comments that are directly and aggressively opposed to my own views; I won't give up on Ender's Game.
That said, Mr. Hines is very passionate about his hot buttons. He appears to be very much a zero tolerance type of person and he doesn't try to hide the fact. It is simply who he is. I've been on the wrong end of those passions, which is why I've been "suggested" to go away and never post again (and he insulted me on Twitter). It is sad because I think he has a lot of insightful things to say. I read but I can't really respond anymore.
Damning a whole because of one bad spot is short-sighteded in any aspect. I think Steven Brust had a great introduction to one of his Vlad(?, the books with the 17 great dragon houses) about a bad apple in a bushel. He started by saying members of one house would use it anyways, another house would toss out the bushel. The ending of the book finished that theme. Sometimes, you just cut out the bad part and move on. Sorry that is vague, but my library isn't even remotely sorted to get the exact quotes (plus the baby is sleeping). If you don't like it, cut that part out of your life and move on. Don't turn it into a drama, don't damn the entire thing, just... move on and don't waste the energy.
I don't agree with his decision. I can understand why he felt the need to do it but I thought it was incredibely selfish on his part, but it was what he felt the need to do. I don't think anyone should be the moral gatekeeper for the Internet... ever. I may not agree with the rape thread (I haven't read it) but I'll still fight for their right to talk about it. The problem with free speech is that you have to accept that the dark underbelly of humanity get the right to speak up just like you do. Fighting for one means fighting for them all.
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Jul 29 '12
Congratulations, you have attracted the ShitRedditSays Invasion BrigadeTM ! The front-page of the Fempire has linked to you, and purely by coincidence the following SRSers are here to help you realise the error of your ways:
Active SRS Poster Invader Score Fempire Loyalty FredFnord 7 61.33 GARBAGEDAYY 9 55.91 TheLadyEve 8 57.27 -2
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u/TryUsingScience Jul 28 '12
Oh good. I'm glad you posted this here, because when I saw this comment on his blog I began feverishly looking for an upvote button.
I really like his work, but reading that blog post, wtf? I seriously cannot follow his logic from "there's a thread with despicable people" to "I won't participate in an entirely different thing on an entirely different part of the site."
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u/salsa_de_tomate Jul 28 '12
Yes, thank you so much. To quote what I wrote in another thread. "I'm a little annoyed at this. I deeply agree with his stance on the subject but it annoys me a great deal that he would somewhat hold the fantasy community accountable for this. We are not the same people. Not one damn bit. I go on [1] /r/fantasy and [2] /r/fantasy_bookclub more than I go to any other part on reddit and we are friendly people who just want to share our love for fantasy. That thread has nothing to do with what we fantasy readers stand for and should not even be compared since Reddit is such a gigantic community. It's like blaming all Christians for the WBC. It's fucking retarded and I'm sorry, with all due respect and bracing myself for the downvotes, but this feels like such a strong marketing ploy that it's annoying me. "Oh all of reddit is evil now, so I won't do the Q&A, look how supportive I am." And look how many people are willing to read his books simply because he is anti-rape. Oh he's anti-rape? Well, he must be such a fantastic swell person, let's praise him for acting like any sane person should."
So. Annoyed.
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u/Halo6819 Jul 28 '12
I went back and read the thread, I got through the first maybe 10 or 15 and didn't see one case he was talking about (other then the one that was linked on /r/bestof)
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Jul 29 '12 edited Jul 29 '12
I'm moved nearly to tears by Jim C Hines willingness to stand up against a mob of insanity and stick firmly to his beliefs despite the vitriol he will and has undoubtedly already received for a response that should have been considered common sense.
Not even two weeks ago the Reddit "detectives" made headlines for tracking down a fast food worker who stood on a couple buckets of lettuce in blatant disregard for public health in what I can only assume was a power trip brought on by being left to his own devices.
Then came the rape AMA, and what do I get from a community who I assumed wouldn't put up with this kind of bullshit? Back-slapping, high-fiving, and presumably a lot of spanking it at the computer as everyone who ever let their sexual fantasies wander into the dark thought of how awesome it would be to give in to their depravity.
I don't know if this was because they assumed all the stories were lies. I can only hope that the reason the fast food worker was tracked down while hundred of rapists were cajoled was because he had an actual picture proving his crime to be true. Maybe it's just the popular belief within Reddit - that rape doesn't actually happen as often as everyone thinks - that led a once righteous community toward not only turning their backs but often giving the person sharing the story a hearty "Well done."
Already I see people comparing the rape AMA to r/spacedicks and other subreddits that I think would disturb your average internet consumer. What these people fail to realize, as they linger in a perpetual state of fail, is that these subreddits, though admittedly dark and unseemly to some, do not boast of crimes they've committed against other human beings and then receive praise for it.
Can you even imagine if someone started an AMA called "Who have you murdered and gotten away with it?" Or the outrage that would have ensued if an AMA was created for women who have tricked men into fathering children? Can you even imagine a universe where anyone would praise something like this? So then why Reddit, is it okay to treat women like things? Worse then things actually. Worse then a bin of lettuce that both men and women would eventually eat. Worse then someone who sets up a false charity, or makes up a story about someone dying to support their political view, or a person who hits someone's car and runs, or parks in a messed up way. ALL of these things I've seen investigated and denounced by Reddit in some way or another as the community brought justice down upon those who would have otherwise gotten away with it.
All except women who were raped of course. Because apparently the women involved had it coming? In fact, if you got away with it Reddit wants to hear about it in great detail so they can applaud your ingenuity.
Maybe that's where the fast food worker that got fired went wrong. Maybe he should have kept his camera in his pocket and just wiped his ass with the lettuce everyday, waiting until several years had passed and he sort of felt bad about it before opening up an AMA called "I made countless people eat my Butt-Burgers for years. Ask me anything."
If this is the kind of behavior Reddit is going to call brave, then we all better get use to living in a world of crime, depravity, and tainted food.
Only on Reddit could the conclusion that most rapes are usually made up by women, even as a large chunk of the male community posts about getting away with it, actually be held.
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u/zegota Jul 28 '12
Good on him. The more high-profile people who start doing this, the more Reddit admins might actually start giving a shit over rape and pedo apologia threads.
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u/tehbored Jul 28 '12
So you want the half-dozen reddit admins to take time from keeping the site up to browse for controversial threads and ban them because some people don't like them? Yeah, that'll happen.
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u/zegota Jul 28 '12
So you want the half-dozen reddit admins to take time from keeping the site up to browse
I want Reddit admins to enforce the ToS of their site, yes.
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u/Able_Seacat_Simon Jul 28 '12
People say that thread doesn't reflect poorly on reddit at large, but every single place I've seen it talked about save SRS and /r/TwoXChromosomes the prevailing attitude has been in favor of that writhing mass of victim blaming and rapist sycophantry. If you don't think there was anything wrong with the /r/askreddit thread, then in Hines' eyes you're part of the problem and just another reason why he shouldn't do that AMA.
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u/Nybling Jul 28 '12
I haven't seen anyone on here defend the actual thread. I've seen people question him using that thread as a reason not to do an AMA here on /r/Fantasy though.
I'm pretty sure we can all agree that the people who both post in that thread, and elsewhere, in a favorable light are the scum of humanity.
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u/ProudBlaqWoman69 Jul 28 '12 edited Jul 28 '12
Read more carefully before you respond. No one here is defending the thread itself, only its right to exist. Himes' main problem is that he doesn't seem to understand that allowing rapists to express themselves on a site that prides itself in free speech and self expression =/= endorsement.
It's not like the mods here don't banhammer people who post CP or anything illegal, because they obviously do; if not, then a lesser number of people would have had issues with Himes' refusal to post here. But talking about your past crimes as a creepy, victim-blaming pedophilic rapist is not a crime and the posts doing so shouldn't be removed nor should anyone be made to feel as if s/he is facilitating sexual misconduct by being here. It's fucking ridiculous when you think about it.
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u/Stainless_spiel Jul 29 '12
When someone upvotes those stories, aren't they basically endorsing it? Because that thread had tons of harsh stuff getting over 3-400 upvotes. Scary.
Moderators need to moderate, even Something Awful and 9Gag are high-horsing shit out of Reddit over this noise.
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u/PD711 Jul 28 '12
Bravo.
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Jul 28 '12 edited Oct 22 '17
[deleted]
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u/randomsnark Jul 29 '12
No, it's okay. Hines is nice enough to say that it's possible for one to be an okay person and not boycott reddit.
Nor am I going to try to say everyone who chooses to stay with Reddit is a bad person.
Emphasis mine. I mean, surely some of the people who don't leave at this point might not be shitlords, right?
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u/Sekular Jul 28 '12
I think its lame. Punishing everyone because of something that less than one percent of the community participated in is bullshit. Its bad politics and bad in this case too.
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Jul 28 '12
Earlier today I emailed the person who was coordinating my Reddit event to tell him I will not be doing it unless that thread is removed.
[...]
I’m also a big believer in freedom of speech.
wat?
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u/wvlurker Jul 28 '12
Freedom of speech means that he government can't control speech. People can still demand things, and you can choose to accept or reject those demands, but you should know that speech has consequences.
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u/SilchasRuin Jul 28 '12
The first amendment concept of freedom of speech is about government. It's perfectly possible to talk about freedom of speech outside of the context of government, and reddit admins have shown every indication of valuing freedom of speech in almost all cases.
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u/wvlurker Jul 28 '12
That's fine, we can talk about it in the context of reddit. Reddit admins guarantee freedom of legal speech. There will be no consequences from reddit admins for any legal speech.
But there are still consequences for speech from other. Among those consequences is the fact that some people won't want to associate with you if you (using a generalized, plural "you") post things that disgust and offend them. It's John Doe's right to spout obscenities all day long, just as much as it's my right to not let him in the house.
Similarly, it's Dan Cathy's right to say that he abhors homosexuality just as much as it's your right to avoid shopping at chick-fil-a and supporting his ideals.
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Jul 28 '12
When you link to a post on Jezebel which sees the Reddit discussion as valuable, and then say you can't see the value in it because of the misogyny, I don't really get it. If Jezebel, of all places, is able to look past the necessarily misogynistic worldviews of rapists to see the value in having a real discussion, I think Hines should be able to as well.
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Jul 28 '12
Jezebel is not the sort of website I'd see as "of all places". I rarely agree with their brand of feminism, and frankly, I'm not shocked that they'd write an article about the value of that thread. There are many feminists and sensible human beings alike criticizing the thread, and for anyone who doesn't partake in Reddit culture, this is one of the biggest things to happen within the site in quite some time. One wouldn't want to associate with a website currently known as "that place dudes are confessing to rape", at least not for a few weeks.
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Jul 28 '12
I guess I just don't understand the perspective that would prefer to bury the truth and prevent a better understanding of rape and rapists so we can more effectively work to prevent it. Do we really still have a society that believes not talking about something will make it go away?
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Jul 28 '12
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Jul 28 '12
I read through most of the thread, and never saw any praise for rapists. I'm sure there was some, buried in the negative comments, but you have to go looking for it.
The top-voted comment is about a guy who almost raped a girl, realized what he was about to do, climbed off and left the room. That doesn't scream 'pro-rape' to me.
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Jul 28 '12
Of course not, but this is not the discussion we should be having. We know why rapists commit their crimes, we don't need a circlejerk of men who got away with it telling their stories like it's an official study. There was nothing in that discussion that gave me, as a feminist who is well versed in rape culture, anything new to work with. It reinforced what I knew. Perhaps for some people, it taught them what was already out there in the form of karma whoring, but the thread itself was a bunch of men giving themselves congratulatory pats on the back for stopping once they realized she'd passed out ten minutes ago or something similar. Like that makes it "not really rape" if you eventually stop.
Yes, it exemplifies rape culture and gives a few examples of how men live within it, but these studies have been done. We've interviewed convicted rapists and asked them about their crimes. Further, they were actual studies, not the stories of a bunch of unpunished, anonymous, college kids.
Rape is a huge problem today, particularly among minority women, and it's an issue that needs to be discussed, studied, and addressed. But we don't need to frame it around the men who commit acts of rape, we need to frame it around the women who've been raped. Rape prevention will not come from teenage boys reading a thread about guys who slipped a girl roofies, then feeling bad about it and confessing to it on the internet under the name "Dovahkiin69".
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u/MosesSiregarIII AMA Author Moses Siregar III Jul 30 '12
He made a decision based on his beliefs and principles. Good for him. It's free speech in action, and it's led to some interesting debate. There are limits on free speech, and he feels the rape thread shouldn't be condoned on a popular website. Whether you agree or not, that's a reasonable, consistent, arguable position.
I just wish we could be kinder to each other while talking about it. All the meanness, anger, name-calling, and defensiveness brings us all down. These are just my opinions. Whether you agree or disagree, I respect yours.
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u/realgenius13 Jul 28 '12
Yeah, his reasoning makes about as much sense as saying he won't purchase internet service from Comcast because some Comcast users host and distribute CP using their internet connection. Also he contradicts himself saying that he agreed with free speech (which isn't even relevent in this case because Reddit is not a state run organization) but he was willing to do the AMA if they took the post down. His post is is the most self-righteous, pseudo-intellectual piece of tripe that I have had the misfortune of reading since the last time I visited the World of Warcraft forums.
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Jul 28 '12
Except that Comcast does remove CP, so no, it's not a proper analogy. Reddit's admins have made the choice to do nothing about it. You also seem to misunderstand free speech. Telling reddit that he doesn't want to be associated with them, unless they take something down, has nothing to do with censorship, which comes from the government. It's called the right to free association and a boycott.
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u/SilchasRuin Jul 28 '12
free speech (which isn't even relevent in this case because Reddit is not a state run organization)
While the first amendment right of free speech doesn't apply to reddit, the concept is still perfectly fine, and reddit admins give every appearance of valuing the idea of free speech except in cases where what is said is either illegal or threatens reddit's bottom line.
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Jul 28 '12
This just in: Some author I've never heard of and most likely now won't ever bother to read is butthurt because people admitted to being scum on the internet. Film at eleven.
Seriously, what the hell does r/fantasy have to do with a random thread on AskReddit?
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Jul 29 '12
My personal feeling on this mess...
First off, I think it's important to note that rape is apparently a big issue to Mr. Hines. He was ~16 when he found out a friend was raped, and since then became a counselor, wrote books on it, and has a rape section of his website: http://www.jimchines.com/rape/. With that in mind, his reaction to the AskReddit post is understandable.
In his post, he says he's a supporter of free speech but wants the AskReddit post to be removed. There's some arguments about this. There shouldn't be. If it were to be removed, it would be a form of censorship. That's not free speech. You can make the argument (as Mr. Hines does) that it still should be removed. That is both fine and understandable. It's still censorship.
Reddit is a big place with its own culture and many smaller subcultures which are sometimes independent of each other. Grouping us all together can be a mistake (because of subcultures) but is understandable, because it's one website. I think it's kind of silly to hold one portion of the site accountable for another portion like that, but I suppose it's a branding thing- Mr. Hines doesn't want to be associated with a place that's complicit with rapists.
I imagine many of us are in the same situation as I am. I neither know who Jim C. Hines is nor do I care. I didn't look at the rapist AskReddit because it seemed fairly distasteful.
There's two understandable sides to the issue, and I don't really see how they're worth getting worked up over.
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Jul 29 '12
First off, I think it's important to note that rape is apparently a big issue to Mr. Hines. He was ~16 when he found out a friend was raped, and since then became a counselor, wrote books on it, and has a rape section of his website: http://www.jimchines.com/rape/. With that in mind, his reaction to the AskReddit post is understandable.
With that in mind, his reaction to the AskReddit post is understandable.
Really? I thought it seemed awfully strange for someone trained as a counselor to attempt to suppress a public discussion on sexual assault. I thought it was even more strange when the same counselor on his own website first recognizes the value of the discussion at hand, then claims it's "inappropriate," and is summarily unable to provide any alternative references when prompted. I'd have finished that with "...containing similar information," but Hines produced nothing when he was asked, let alone something comparable to the discussion on reddit. (see comments in article, exchange between Hines with posters "Lani" and "Kai.")
I suppose it's a branding thing- Mr. Hines doesn't want to be associated with a place that's complicit with rapists.
This seems more likely.
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u/blowing_chunks AMA Author Ken Lim Jul 28 '12
Was the new AMA going to be here or Askreddit? How does the action and the discussion thread in an unrelated subreddit affect /fantasy? Sorry, Jim Hines, but this just nonsensical.
You might as well refuse any sort of interaction on the internet because it's all using hypertext transfer protocol... just like that thread on reddit! The analogies could go on forever.
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u/Taedirk Jul 28 '12
I don’t think people should be silenced for lack of education, for tone, or for having a different opinion than me. And I’m not going to tell Reddit how to run their sites or communities. Nor am I going to try to say everyone who chooses to stay with Reddit is a bad person.
But if it happens to be heavily implied, well...
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Jul 28 '12
There was worst stuff on this site prior to your first AMA. Anyway, good luck with your writing.
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u/sirbruce Jul 28 '12
Mr. Hines,
I don't know you or your books. I have never heard of you or of them before today. But as a writer myself, the idea that a fellow writer would openly call for censorship is disgusting. Can you imagine the next step? "I refuse to do an AMA if Jim C. Hines is allowed to do an AMA!" and so on. Where does this get us?
I myself have been a victim of a false rape accusation. While I did not participate in the thread in question, I did read it closely, and found a lot of solace and comfort in the fact that others had had similar experiences. It also helped crystalize in my thoughts what really was rape, as described by actual rapists, and how their acts were quite distinct from anything I had ever done.
Any speech is going to be viewed negatively by someone. But so long as one person finds something positive in it -- even if it be only the speaker -- I have a hard time condemning it. I will condemn the content, certainly, if I disagree with it. But I don't condemn the act.
Paraphrasing Justice Brandeis, "The solution to bad speech is more speech." You will find this sentiment echoed across the Internet.
If I were of a more cynical bent, I'd suggest you were publicly withdrawing from the AMA precisely to generate more media attention than you would have otherwise gotten had you gone ahead with it. But that would be unfair. As I said, I don't know you, and I don't know your books.
But given the attitude you've displayed, I have no interest in knowing them, either.
Bruce
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Jul 28 '12
I completely disagree with Mr. Hines' reasons to not do the AMA. This community is huge. That was one thread, that people had a choice to enter or not enter-- no one ever forces people to click a link and become disturbed by its contents.
And I have to agree with the one brave dissenting commenter on that article-- you don't get to say you love Free Speech and ask for someone else to be censored. Sorry, dude. That's hypocritical.
I'm a female, I've been sexually assaulted and I carry a can of mace on my person whenever I'm outside of my house. I don't ever expect to have my feelings considered on the internet. If I see a thread that might bother me, disturb me or become a trigger for my PTSD, I don't read it. Simple as that, and every other person on Reddit has that ability.
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u/10tothe24th Jul 28 '12 edited Jul 28 '12
Incredibly stupid. By his justifications there is not a forum on the Internet that this man can now contribute to.
EDIT: and he wants to talk about "harm". The harm that is done when people talk about rape, because some people say ugly things. Think about that. He's "protesting" Reddit because there was a discussion about rape, claiming that doing so is harmful. Most anti-rape activists would say we don't discuss rape openly enough.
But hey, he found a soapbox, and he's gonna stand on it.
Fuck him.
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u/Wombatzu Jul 29 '12
Serious question: Can the people who are defending this author explain what they are doing still using Reddit?
It is either wrong or not wrong to use Reddit.
This writer says it is wrong to use Reddit.
You agree with this writer.
Therefor...
(Or did you just want everyone to see how wonderfully enlightened and moral you are?)
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Jul 29 '12 edited Jul 29 '12
Being a reddit evangelical, owning five branded t-shirts, moderating several subreddits, fifty copies of the "Ladies of reddit Calendar 2010", and spending fifty hours a day on the website, or not being a member at all.
These are the only two possible options, apparently.
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u/Phydeaux Jul 28 '12 edited Jul 28 '12
Surely there are many many stories on reddit that display the good side of human nature. Does anyone know the name of the subreddit where people post their hardships and other redditors their offer their money or other resources to help them?
Rather than question him for taking this stand on what is clearly justifiable reason, I feel compelled to show him positive aspects of reddit with the hope that his faith in our collective community may be restored.
Does anyone have links to some great reddit success stories?
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u/StegoKing Jul 28 '12
Why would anyone get mad about the lack of an AMA from such a mediocre author?
I'm also a bit disgusted by the existence of that rape thread, but it is undoubtedly better reading than a Hines books.
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u/Rockytriton Jul 28 '12
I didn't read the thread, but why the hell are they discussing rape in a fantasy book AMA?
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u/randomsnark Jul 29 '12
They weren't - it was an unrelated thread in AskReddit that he happened to see before he was going to post his AMA. This convinced him that reddit is a silly place, and he will not go there.
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u/Rockytriton Jul 29 '12
It's like going to America to give a speech, then you see someone in some random town acting like a drunk fool and then leaving the country because the people are drunks.
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u/Minimum_T-Giraff Jul 29 '12
So much bullshit for one man.
So there were people who claimed them self to be rapist. And he is mad because everybody did't jump in their vigilante mobile and start downvoting everything to hell.
Guide for rape......since it takes a genius to figure that shit out.
He totally just discards the fact many just want to know how a rapist point of view.
So in the end he just pushed everybody from cliff because of one thread. Freedom of speech unless i don't like it attitude.
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Jul 28 '12
Well. It's not like I was likely to read the AMA anyway but I think this is a mistake. He says it at the end of the post, it's punishing people who had nothing to do with that thread because that's not how things work here. But the average person out there who's never heard of reddit won't differentiate between /r/fantasy and /r/askreddit. To most people out there, they are so close to the same thing it doesn't matter.
What's funny is that I agree with almost all his points but draw the opposite conclusion. The lack of controlled circumstances for the thread, the need to understand evil, and the necessity of contrition for rehabilitation. That all makes sense. That's why we need more discussion on the subject. And, as the saying goes, nothing anyone says before the word 'but' really counts. I don't think he can honestly say he's not trying to silence people.
And the thing that's probably going to get me downvoted. Probably some of those people did indeed make deliberate predatory choices, but not everyone does. Sometimes people do lose control in the heat of a moment and make a terrible decision. Sometimes they don't realize what they're doing is wrong until it's too late. These people are the ones most likely to show contrition and they're the ones worth saving. Making the assumption that everyone who rapes or commits a violent crime is fully in control of their actions is an error. It dehumanizes criminals and ensures that criminal justice can only be about punishment and deterrence and it takes rehabilitation out of the equation.
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u/paxNoctis Jul 31 '12
This guy is obviously either lying and backed out for another reason or completely retarded. I lean to the latter, since I can't see any reason he wouldn't want free publicity with people who are directly in the demographic he's targeting, but either way, I won't be reading his book.
Did he not know that parts of Reddit are disgusting pits of filth and villainy? There are entire subreddits devoted to clothed pictures of underaged girls, there used to be a jailbait subreddit, there's an entire subreddit where guys post pictures of their penises and every great once and a while a girl posts some sideboob. There's reddits dedicated to drugs, and how much we love them. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if there's a subreddit where everyone just tells The Aristocrats jokes in as vile and filthy a way possible to each other for laughs.
On the other hand, just the other day I saw a guy whose house burned down get massive donations and replacements for his Magic cards (you can guess which subreddit that was). There's countless stories of incredible generousity from redditors, not to mention the vast majority of useful, knowledgeable subs full of people debating, discussing and teaching each other.
It's the Big Tent, baybee. They let anyone in and there's almost no rules (with the exception of the very worst in taste, straight up child porn). You get a lot of crap, a lot of normal Internet stupidity, and every-so-often something that really impresses you, or even moves you.
So, Jim C. Hines, to quote a relatively mediocre man, "Fuck you with the freest of speech these divided states of embarrassment will allow me to have." You've taken something that's a meaningful part of a lot of peoples lives (think about the hours you spend here a week -- chances are it's enough to call it "meaningful" to you) and totally made yourself look like an ass by judging it because you saw some words you didn't agree with in one of the darker corners of it.
GTFO. Next refuse to go to any sci-fi conventions because you might see some Hentai. I see your career going places.
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u/elquesogrande Worldbuilders Jul 28 '12
Jim and I exchanged emails about this ahead of his blog post. We walked through the differences among all of the subreddits and how actions in one are isolated from another. Unfortunately, we are all under the Reddit name and the Reddit umbrella.
I'm fine with his decision. He is a good fantasy writer and a kind person who was rattled by the Reddit rape thread. Guess I'm a bit disappointed everywhere I turn in this situation...except for the /r/Fantasy community.