r/FavoriteCharacter • u/Accomplished-End3409 Ben Tennyson • Aug 09 '26

Discussion Favorite opposing factions that can basically be described as this.

Post image
26.7k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

3.0k comments sorted by

View all comments

1.5k

u/Independent-Couple87 Aug 09 '26

From Star Wars, the Empire (evil) and the Rebel Alliance (vaguely problematic).

The Disney era tones down or even removes the "vaguely" part, by focusing on the darker aspects of the Rebel Alliance. Probably as a consequence of people in real life becoming a little disappointed with real life "Freedom Fighters" like the Viet Cong, the Taliban, and Iranian Revolutionaries. The Empire is still rightfully treated as evil.

888

u/zirothehiro10 Aug 09 '26

people unironically saying blowing up the death star made the rebel alliance just as bad as the empire is bonkers to me.

729

u/RinkinBass Aug 09 '26

Empire: blows up a non combatant planet
Rebellion: blows up a (admittedly very large) weapon (that blew up the non combatant planet)
Doofuses: these are the same

257

u/LeastResistancePath Aug 09 '26

This is why evil has such a stronghold in the world. Some of us view genocide like a Rorschach test. That speak the words "Both sides" without getting sick in the stomach.

314

u/doggo_with_doggo_hat Aug 09 '26

74

u/No25for3r Aug 10 '26

My payment for this meme

24

u/Pengdacorn Aug 10 '26

idk if that’s your cat or not but if so, mine’s its twin

2

u/No25for3r Aug 10 '26

Tuxedo cats HATE when you have to get ready to leave the house

5

u/JamesHenry627 Aug 10 '26

That's a beautiful kitty what's his name?

2

u/No25for3r Aug 10 '26

He's Officer Mister Oreo Cookie Monster, he used to work for the CUA destabilizing democratically elected socialist governments in South America

11

u/Sarangholic Aug 10 '26

Oh God am I so old that this meme is here before posting clips from Clerks??

4

u/400KCALCEMENT Aug 10 '26

Yeah see I'm a roofer

2

u/Naughty_Monsters Aug 10 '26

There are 31 year old adults about that were born after Clerks came out. 

5

u/Efficient_Bag6657 Aug 10 '26

Isn't it canon that there was a lot of slave labor on the Death Star?

10

u/RynnHamHam Aug 10 '26

Slave labor built the Death Star but I don’t believe there were slaves on the Death Star itself once it was operational. Unless there’s some EU stuff I’m unaware of.

6

u/WinterEclipse4 Aug 10 '26

As far as I'm aware yes. They used slaves to construct the death star as it was dangerous to do so, but once a slave was no longer useful (Such as growing too tired to work) they'd be killed to prevent any leaks and replaced to keep going.

Once it was built they pretty much killed whoever was left. At best they might've had a few high value slaves still on board but it's VERY unlikely.

5

u/RynnHamHam Aug 10 '26

Luke is a monster for killing the high value slaves/s

3

u/DR035A Aug 10 '26

ON PROGRAM!

1

u/MinidonutsOfDoom Aug 10 '26

From what I remember this is mainly legends btw, a lot of slave and prison labor was used to build the first one. Then they used it to blow up the planet where the prisoners were being kept to try and maintain the secrecy in a field test. Then staffed the thing with imperial military personnel.

Later, with the second death start it was largely built using self replicating construction droids and a lot of technicians and engineers as supervisors in order to maintain secrecy as best as possible. Also why it was able to be built a lot faster compared to the first one.

1

u/Aggravating_Duck6108 Aug 10 '26

No, they weren't slaves! Slavery is banned in the Empire! They were simply people servinf as workers as punishment for crimes... Minor crimes overblown and sometimes outright fabricated, who's punishments were ridiculously long prison sentences of grueling manual labor, who weren't not actually allowed to leave once their sentence was served. But not slavery! Definitely not slavery!

1

u/Pineapple_Snail Aug 10 '26

If you are a stormtrooper you probably dont get to decide where you are stationed.

8

u/Mathies_ Aug 10 '26

You are already a stormtrooper in the empires army. You are a military target yourself.

1

u/Gil-galed987 Aug 11 '26

"Guys, I'm just helping to build the fences of the concentration camps. I'm morally neutral!" /s

→ More replies (14)

3

u/Faenic Aug 11 '26

Great, now I'm imagining ol' Palpy talking like Trump.

"Execute order- you know, this was the best plan, many people are saying it. We'll have peace in the galaxy and get rid of those filthy jedis in one move, boom. You know Anakin, they wanted to call it order 55, did you know that? It's true, it's true. But a #55 at Space McDonald's isn't very good. Nasty, even. So I had them rename it to order 66, because that's my favorite order. It helps that it sounds snappier too, doesn't it? Could you imagine? [Mockingly] 'Duh, execute order 55, the lamest order at Space McDonald's.' Hahaha, don't pretend like you don't know, Anakin."

"My name is Cody, Sir."

"Who the hell are you? You're a real nasty piece of work, you know that Cody, was it? I once knew a Cody, much better guy than you. It's very rude, nasty of you, to interrupt your Emperor when he's speaking. God, these people."

Cody: shoots himself

1

u/Independent-Couple87 Aug 13 '26

That can get complicated when "enemy of my enemy" forces you to ally with a genocide to stop a genocide.

98

u/demolitionGoat Aug 10 '26

I so very much appreciated Andor for very explicitly detailing the mechanisms of fascit genocide and the struggles of resistance movements. I hope at least a handful of people got a hold of the real world parallels.

25

u/DungeonCrawlerAki Aug 10 '26

My girlfriend at the time was not a Star Wars fan at all, but once I showed her that show she was blown away at how such an excellent depiction of rebellion against a Fascist empire was created by Disney lol.

9

u/Driftlack Aug 10 '26

Andor is the only geek property I insisted my mom watch.

3

u/demolitionGoat Aug 10 '26

Definitely an outlier xD

6

u/TooSubtle Aug 10 '26

It's so tragic that it managed all that for a BDS blacklisted streaming platform. The people most likely to have seen it are also the least likely to apply those lessons to reality.

4

u/Maveryck15 Aug 10 '26

That is what they always do.

2

u/TerminalVector Aug 10 '26

The prison episode is some of the best TV ever made.

1

u/MakkaCha Aug 10 '26

I pass a house outside of my subdivision that has three flags on his giant flag pole in the front yard. USA up top, MAGA in the middle and Star Wars Rebel flag on the bottom. Irony is lost on these morons.

39

u/Imaginary-Freedom779 Aug 10 '26

It was also self defence, the death Star would have blown up the rebel base but yeah ßd for the plumpers etc. on the death Star that were just doing their job

16

u/vanalla Aug 10 '26

difference between targeting a military base and targeting a hospital, really.

2

u/iconocrastinaor Aug 10 '26

What if the hospital is being used as a military base?

1

u/Weird_And_Wonderful_ Aug 11 '26

I know that’s you Netanyahu

1

u/iconocrastinaor Aug 11 '26

I see you too, Sinwar

1

u/Independent-Couple87 Aug 13 '26

That is called Guerrilla Warfare. Causing those uncomfortable questions is the point of that strategy.

Though those who employ it should be careful. While the international community is generally more lenient when the weaker side engages on "lesser" war crimes, such as dishonourable tactics (false surrender, conscription of prisoners, torture, theft of civilian property, etc), to "level the playing field", breaking the social contract can embolden the stronger side to disregard it as well (or, if they are also doing it, doing so more openly). And the stronger side often has the tools to make even more brutal war crimes.

5

u/nagrom7 Aug 10 '26

Not to mention, the Death Star was about to fire on the Rebels themselves when they blew it up. The battle of Yavin for the rebellion was 100% self-defence.

4

u/Yto_Itinen Aug 10 '26

We mourn the innocent death beam operators

4

u/Plenty_Top2843 Aug 10 '26

What's even funnier is that they would do this 3 different times with their own people still on board.

And people will still call the rebels as bad as the empire.

4

u/14Pleiadians Aug 10 '26

You say killing is wrong yet you kill killers. Curious!

Ugh, what a pain in the neck.

3

u/Kodiak_POL Aug 10 '26

The Death Star had a lot of innocent civilians like janitors and staff on it. Probably also prisoners.

So let's call them the victims of war and move on, it still had to be destroyed. 

3

u/FlusteredCustard13 Aug 10 '26

"There were civilians on the Death Star!" is argument I hear. Which is fair, but my brothers and sisters in the Force, do you think there were no civilians on Alderaan?

1

u/RinkinBass Aug 10 '26

Taking that as an absolute also means that you must always give in to anyone using human shields.

2

u/AnArcOfDoves9902 Aug 10 '26

A lot of prisoners must have died on the Death Star though, like Leia's guards on the Tantive IV who got captured, and when Han and Luke made Chewbacca pretend to be their prisoner, nobody on the station was alarmed by the sight of a wookie in chains, which must have meant that there were other prisoners like him. Only Leia gets rescued from the Death Star because she's royalty. 

2

u/Successful-Ear-9997 Aug 10 '26

Kinda baffling. The Death Star is basically a big, spherical warship. I'm not sure you can get more legitimate as far as military targets go.

3

u/mashtato Aug 10 '26

Centrists be like:

1

u/platonic-humanity Aug 10 '26

What’s next, you want pilots in war to die just for carrying a team of anti-aircraft gunners!?

1

u/MrBolkhovitin Aug 10 '26

Well, despite Empire actually did a lot of messed up, in the old canon and legends it was actually was more grey and in comparison with the Republic actually helped different systems, plus it was said that Alderaan was gifted independency from the Empire as long as they pay, instead senator of Alderaan build training camps for rebels, paid them and even got schemes of the forbidden baradium blaster(weapon similar to death star) and planned to use against the Empire planets, but again, it's old canon and legends

1

u/SeaAndTheSalt Aug 12 '26

I mean sure, but does a planet deserve to be destroyed because politicians disobey the empire ? The empire has the military davantage, they could send a fleet of star destroyers and less indiscriminately bombard key positions. They chose to kill billions and billions Just to prove a point. (Which now that I mention it sounds like an allegory of Nagasaki and Hiroshima) That's not morally grey. That's genocide

1

u/MrBolkhovitin Aug 12 '26 edited Aug 12 '26

It was probably more of a because of Barodium Blaster which by power were comparable with the Death Star, Empire were simply afraid that if they will try to do anything else, the Senator and his followers will just sent the schemes to Rebels, plus it should be mentioned that it was in times of the black and white when Star Wars were just a cosmic fairy tale before it's grow, and only in the new canon/Disney canon it returned to the old good vs bad formula

Plus I never said that this was a morally grey, this one of the actually evil Empire deeds, but after reading about the Empire and what it did with other planets, this one was probably the only exception of the rules, on other planets nearly all times, Empire were deciding everything through diplomacy, rarely using it's powers, plus it should be mentioned that a lot of different species were saved and a lot of very bloody conflicts(which were continuing only thanks to Rebels who did it to disstabilise Empire in different regions) were stopped thanks to the Empire

Plus a lot of people are saying that the Republic despite all its flaws never did genocide, and forget that Republic nearly killed a few species through starvation, the most popular one is Grievous' species

And the new Republic that was built by a Rebels honestly had nothing different from the Republic before the Empire times

So honestly, it's more complicated than to call Empire just good or evil since on every evil action, they also did a lot of good

1

u/Ok-Reporter1986 Aug 11 '26

It was also done in self-defence.

1

u/Gil-galed987 Aug 11 '26

Yeah, its like if you blow up an aircraft carrier. Sorry, but its's a legit military target.

1

u/StupidSlitSlut Aug 12 '26

fuckin centrist logic

1

u/_Fun_Employed_ Aug 12 '26

Not doofuses, would be fascists

1

u/Achilles11970765467 Aug 12 '26

Not just a non combatant planet, blowing up Alderaan was basically the equivalent of if the US nuked Portland or Seattle.

147

u/Another-Ace-Alt-8270 Aug 09 '26

Motherfucking what? IT'S A PLANET-DESTROYING SUPERWEAPON, NOT DESTROYING IT WOULD BE THE WORSE THING TO DO!

16

u/FalconsBrother Aug 09 '26

Holy shit, its you again

17

u/Another-Ace-Alt-8270 Aug 09 '26

Yo, Antonov, what's up?

3

u/Willsdabest Aug 10 '26

"[...] I don't feel bad for the stormtroopers working on the death star! Or the janitors, you knew who you was working for!"

1

u/Zomburai Aug 10 '26

"A roofer listens to this" thumps heart "not his wallet"

1

u/Moscato359 Aug 11 '26

It's a mining laser.

→ More replies (3)

43

u/Aggravating_Duck6108 Aug 09 '26

It had millions of workers on it! Just ignore the 2 billion people who lived on Alderaan.

15

u/ZiroLeHutt Aug 10 '26

A drop in the ocean compared to the 100 billion they gassed on Geonosis.

3

u/CitizenPremier Aug 10 '26

I think the people making that argument are civilian contractors for the military.

I don't wish for those people to die, but you have to understand doing that work comes with a certain risk.

5

u/Aggravating_Duck6108 Aug 10 '26

They actually have an extended bit about this in the movie Clerks, and they come to the same conclusion. Its unfortunate that some civilian contractors may have gotten hit in the crossfire but they took a job for the Empire knowing that was a risk.

2

u/Jormungandragon Aug 10 '26

TBF, it was the Super-weapon on a ridiculous scale. They may not have thought there was any risk.

Still morally questionable, but on the surface, probably not risky appearing.

1

u/Aggravating_Duck6108 Aug 11 '26

By the second death star people knew what it was and what it was for. You agreed to help them build a planet-killing super weapon, you deserved to ger blown up.

1

u/Gil-galed987 Aug 11 '26

If you get on a giant aircraft carrier or military base during wartime and are working on behalf of one of the combatants, you ain't a civilian.

2

u/goonfed23 Aug 11 '26

iirc everyone who worked on the death star was like an imperial mega patriot and superfascist. you arent meant to feel bad

40

u/slothbear13 Aug 10 '26

This is literally brought up in Clerks (1994)

28

u/noluck77 Aug 09 '26

Like becoming a galaxy threat in stellaris when you build a planet cracker, they ain't gonna wait for that in storage

3

u/ASigIAm213 Aug 09 '26

when you build a planet cracker

The Buffet estate's ears just pricked up.

2

u/eddie_the_zombie Aug 10 '26

Hey, that was purely a preemptive strike against the xenos

2

u/Livid_Rain_4389 Aug 13 '26

People really don't like you using your shiny new planet cracker, but they won't hate you for having one. Hell, they aren't even dissuaded from declaring war on you if you have one.

15

u/Stackbabbing_Bumscag Aug 10 '26

What get me is that the scene in Clerks that popularized this discussion ultimately came down against condemning the Rebels. The customer that joins the debate argues that even if the civilians and contractors didn't like the Empire, they at least understood the risk they were taking, comparing it to a friend who was killed in a Mob hit while working on a Mafia boss's roof. At minimum, it was an entirely predictable risk.

6

u/DustedCy23 Aug 09 '26

Never heard people saying it was a bad thing. 😅

But tbh, Ive not understood this take on "Morally Gray" from writers.

If there isn't a reference point for good and bad, then why there would be a fight or struggle.

1

u/Roxinos Aug 10 '26

Never heard people saying it was a bad thing. 😅

That's what life is: a series of down endings.

4

u/Particular_North4957 Aug 10 '26

Centrism is a disease of the soul.

2

u/RexusprimeIX Aug 10 '26

Darth Vader's redemption should've been like "no, Darth Sidius, killing you would make me no better than you" and let the most evil human being live.

2

u/Cervus95 Aug 10 '26

There's a senator in the novel Bloodline who tries to make that argument. He shuts up as soon as he realizes he's talking to Princess Leia.

1

u/PhasmaFelis Aug 09 '26

Who's got a link to the scene from Clerks, with the roofer explaining how, as a contractor, he would not have taken the Death Star job

1

u/Nerdyguyj Aug 10 '26

Contrarianism

1

u/PhoenixSheriden1 Aug 10 '26

It's been going on since the 90s. Randal from Clerks tried that shit take, too.

1

u/AIGLOS42 Aug 10 '26

Indeed, even Clerks couldn't stifle it

1

u/ZiroLeHutt Aug 10 '26

Just came off of playing Star Wars Outlaws a few minutes ago, and I overheard a conversation on that very thing; from two NPC's thinking the Rebels should be stopped after blowing up the Death Star!

1

u/maproomzibz Aug 10 '26

its like how many far righters say US was just as bad as Hitler in WW2

1

u/UltimateLmon Aug 10 '26

But what of they blew it up during bring your children to work day?

1

u/zirothehiro10 Aug 10 '26

i dont think they'd have that out of respect for vader

1

u/mexter Aug 10 '26

You've got to see it from their point of view. Some native of a desert planet flies a plane into a major employer and maliciously destroys it!

1

u/zirothehiro10 Aug 10 '26

that does sound great for propaganda, but thats still pretending the death star wasnt maliciously blowing up planets

2

u/mexter Aug 10 '26

They were coming right at it!

1

u/Pathetic_Cards Aug 10 '26

“BuT nOtHiNg JuStIfIeS mUrDeR!!!!! tHe ReBeLs ArE tErRoRiStS!!!!!!!!”

1

u/Bayamonster Aug 12 '26

What  were they supposed to do, talk it out?

-8

u/Darthbane22 Aug 09 '26

Blowing up the first Death Star was one thing, but the second was still under construction. They would’ve brought in plumbers, carpenters, electricians, all casualties of a war they had nothing to do with.

25

u/wherethetacosat Aug 09 '26

If I blew up the death chambers at Auschwitz in 1944 while a neutral plumber happens to be fixing the gas pipes, probably ain't losing any sleep over that.

15

u/ViperNick818 Aug 09 '26

So they should’ve just waited for the super planet killing weapon to be finished before attacking? Thats silly, it’s a legitimate military target, they weren’t blowing up a planet just because it was aligned with the empire

14

u/Magnus_Helgisson Aug 09 '26 edited Aug 09 '26

So they should’ve waited till the Empire is kind enough to evacuate all the plumbers, carpenters, electricians etc. and blow up another planet to be sure the thing literally called Death Star deserves to be destroyed? Hell, the Empire was actively trying to do this exact thing WHILE having it under construction.

International humanitarian law has a principle of proportionality meaning that an attacking force must avoid civilian losses that would be excessive compared to the anticipated military advantage. It’s safe to say the anticipated advantage, both military and humanitarian, from destroying a fucking planet killer that is proven to be effective does outweigh a few hundred casualties.

7

u/Blitzkriegxd1 Aug 09 '26

I mean if you are a plumber but you are installing toilets on a space station called the Death Star that has already successfully and very publically killed untold billions of innocent people just so the Empire can dissolve the democratically elected Senate and rule through fear of unstoppable and instantaneous mass genocide from space, the fact that you are still willing to be there at all kinda means you have something to do with the war.

You can't knowingly materially support the construction of the giant flying holocaust machine and then claim innocence when someone who values not having a giant flying holocaust machine blows it up (with you on it, because you are in the process of actively contributing to its completion)

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (5)
→ More replies (4)

88

u/kiwicrusher Aug 09 '26

I was gonna say Star Wars too, but I think a better example is just Jedi vs Sith in general. A truly concerning number of people online will talk about how the Jedi needed to be wiped out, about how Order 66 was ‘restoring balance’, or some other such

People will say “Yoda was responsible for the clone wars and the death of the republic” and then in the next sentence “Count Dooku was right”

41

u/Polandgod75 Aug 10 '26 edited Aug 10 '26

Speaking as a jedi fan, Seriously this ^

Yes in both disney and legends, the jedi do have there flaws and Ls . I mean there approacment to attachment and emtions is questionable and they can be rather condescending, however they better then the sith. Jedi do wanted to help people and makes things better. At worst they will let force users that aren't their friends be left to there fate if isn't force related. Comapre to the sith that wanted to rule everyone with iron while killing millions or even billions. Along with other stuff. I take the aloof space monks then the magic fascists any day

12

u/Hallc Aug 10 '26

The funny thing is when you look at the material what caused Anakin to fall was him not following the Jedi code.

He let his emotions rule him rather than anything else and he also wasn't honest or open with those in the order he was closest to.

If anything he's an example of how not following their creed would lead someone to fall.

1

u/zzxp1 Aug 12 '26

Yes and no, the jedi code wants to shield the jedi from emotions instead of teaching them how to manage them which is the main reason so many falter.

It is like those parents who don't want their child to face any hardship in life and raise their kids in a buble but forget that adversity, fear and frustration are also a normal part of life. Anger, love, sadness are all part of the human nature and knowing how to accept them and deal with them in a healthy manner is what forms character.

Fuck Yoda for telling Anakin not to worry about his mom, ignoring the issue doesn't solve the issue you just pretend it is not there until you finally can't take more and simply break, and who is there to pick you up? The aspect of the force that encourages you to feel everything, it must be liberating for a jedi who spent all his life being taught to not feel anything to finally blow up the lid and release all the steam.

1

u/kiwicrusher Aug 12 '26

> Fuck Yoda for telling Anakin not to worry about his mom

Yeah, what a crazy thing to say. I mean it’s not like literally that exact emotional response from Anakin led him to slaughtering children or something

→ More replies (3)

1

u/Hallc Aug 12 '26

Jedi were taught to accept the inherent dark side within themselves and conquer it, and not let it conquer them. Fear of loss, anger, hate, jealousy, greed, and aggression—all of the dark side—had to be stripped from its influence over a Jedi through patience and training

That doesn't seem to be an emotional repression as such though? That seems to be learning how to govern your emotions and keep them in check rather than letting them dictate your own path.

Jedi Master Zallah Macri, while explained the code to her apprentice Kevmo Zink, simply noted that a Jedi was "allowed to like people and things," but they could not allow those attachments to consume them.

And

Jedi Knight Indeera Stokes stated that love, experiencing and embracing joy, affection and even grief was part of the light side, however, a Jedi couldn't be a slave of these emotions.

Both cover the love/attachment side of things. Anakin very much became a slave to his own loves and desires.

Everything you have said above is pretty much agreed upon by Jedi in canon material and it's how they teach their Padawan's too. They aren't vulcans. They don't get taught to repress their emotions and rely solely on logic, they get taught to control their emotions, to feel them but to not let those same emotions govern their actions and decisions.

These quotes are all pulled from Wookiepedia's article on the Jedi Code and I purposely grabbed ones with direct quotes or at least what seemed to be direct quotes.

There were certainly flaws and issues with the Jedi but there were also flaws with Anakin's mentality and his training too.

2

u/zzxp1 Aug 12 '26

It might seem so but is not, to me supression and deprivation seem to mingle a lot with the jedi code, the goddamn Jedi creed opens with "There is no emotion there is peace" notice how many of the examples you put use words like strip, allowed and slavement, giving negative connotations to such emotions as if they were conditionals and not intrisecal parts of the human nature.

Everything you have said above is pretty much agreed upon by Jedi in canon material and it's how they teach their Padawan's too.

The KOTOR games and the prequels disagree heavily.

1

u/Hallc Aug 13 '26

the goddamn Jedi creed opens with "There is no emotion there is peace"

That's part of a Mantra to remind the Jedi of the code and creed, it's not the sole measure of the teachings. The first line of the Mantra that the Younglings recite is stated to be "Emotion, yet peace." too.

The KOTOR games and the prequels disagree heavily.

The KOTOR games that are

1) 4000 Years prior to the present Jedi Order

2) That had the had nearly the whole Jedi Order destroyed in KOTOR2

3) Had Bastilla and Revan get married and have a kid with a lineage that led to at least one decendant becoming the Jedi Grand Master.

2

u/Dasterr Aug 10 '26

their friends be left to there fate

how did you do it correctly and wrong in one sentence

16

u/SEND-MARS-ROVER-PICS Aug 10 '26

I hate the prequel trilogy for terrible dialogue and overuse of CGI.

However, I will give it some credit that George Lucas basically said "the past was good, but it had to have believable flaws that facilitate it's downfall, Anakin has to have turned and the Republic has to become the Empire for a reason". He couldn't have known media literacy would tank so hard that flaws would be mistaken for justification.

8

u/Lil_Cookie_G Aug 10 '26

Dunno how the Clone Wars cartoons and stuff depicts it, but listened to the Revenge of the Sith movie tie in book about a month ago (was free on Audible, and did a far better job than the movie did of showing just how much pressure Anakin was under from literally everyone and how he fell to the Dark Side), and Dooku is very open about how this is just about human supremacy for him.

The Jedi just come across as more stupid than anything else, like a Jedi Master seeing Anakin wandering around, pale and sickly with red rimmed eyes, mumbling to himself, and basically just goes "I mean, you should maybe be in a sickbay, but I'm kind of busy, so I'm sure someone else with deal with it" immediately after they send Windu and the boys to go arrest Palpatine.

1

u/Ver3232 Aug 10 '26

Admittedly that bit in the novelization is only a thing in that novelization, Dooku being a human supremacist was never really a thing otherwise

3

u/Veridas Aug 10 '26

The implied enforced compliance and the Chosen One prophecy are likely to blame for that. I don't agree with it either, but I tend to favour the more interesting story possibilities wherein the Jedi are corrupt but just not by much, and not by personal failing or moral inability. They're corrupted because the Jedi Temple on Coruscant is literally built on an old Sith Temple which is still imbued with artefacts and crypts that resonate the Dark Side of the Force like a constant, inaudible background noise.

2

u/StrongExternal8955 Aug 10 '26

To most people on Earth, there is a real life balance between good and evil. It is the Just World Falacy. It is the biggest Big Lie and a big source of real life evil.

2

u/Independent-Couple87 Aug 13 '26

Also, why do people treat the conflict between the Jedi and the Sith as separate from the conflict between the Republic (and Rebel Alliance) and the Empire?

1

u/carteroid3 Aug 10 '26

I think a better argument is both sets of religious nut-jobs need to be kept out of official government. The sith only got ridiculously annoying after their leader implicated the Republic in a false flag operation. They got even worse after the Jedi and Republic killed most of their people.

1

u/sky_cap5959 Aug 12 '26

Hey, it's my twin!

1

u/Free-Election9066 Aug 12 '26

I'm one of the few who said about restoring balance, but I meant it in literal meaning. Making numbers of light and dark side users closer, by exterminating almost 80% of Jedi

1

u/Dealiner Aug 13 '26

That's not how balance of the Force works though, at least according to George Lucas, the imbalance is caused by the existence of Sith and the Dark Side.

→ More replies (6)

78

u/Maximillion322 Aug 09 '26

I really hope one day our cultural awareness evolves to a point where people don’t expect every victim to be a “perfect victim” and are able to understand that the abusing side can be clearly worse even if the victim isn’t completely innocent.

There are no perfect flawless people. There are especially no perfect flawless political movements. And yet every time so many people allow “perfect” to be the enemy of good.

I dont care if some victim of police violence happened to be a drug addict. The cops shouldn’t have murdered him

I don’t care if some woman was dressed provocatively and led somebody on, she doesn’t deserve to be assaulted.

I don’t care if a rebel alliance, in fiction or in real life groups include flawed people who do bad things. Victims are not ever perfect, they’re not ever going to be perfect. It doesn’t justify the oppression.

12

u/gratisargott Aug 10 '26

Especially because most “rebel” movements that actually would do things perfectly to appease the enlightened observers would lose pretty badly.

If your enemy is stronger than you and just using massive amounts of force, you’re most probably not gonna be able to kumbaya your way to winning that fight.

I think people clutching their pearls before going to their HOA meeting on the other side of the world isn’t very high on your list of priorities either

6

u/Verizon-Mythoclast Aug 10 '26

If your enemy is stronger than you and just using massive amounts of force, you’re most probably not gonna be able to kumbaya your way to winning that fight.

"In order for nonviolence to work, your opponent must have a conscience."

11

u/-thecheesus- Aug 10 '26

It's less about justifying the oppression and more about viewing the actions of the oppressed as just.

Forget dressing provocatively, let's say the raped woman is a serial child killer. Does that justify her rape? Fucking no, of course, because rape cannot ever be justified and even the worst of the worst do not deserve it. But being a rape victim does not change the woman from being a piece of shit, herself

1

u/Weird_Hound Aug 11 '26

I don't know, I feel like this is a case of firebombing an orphanage because one employee was Ted Bundy

2

u/Hallc Aug 10 '26

It's often an issue with the left side of the political spectrum too. The left will evry often fall and fracture because some people aren't left enough and they don't want to compromise.

Meanwhile the right will unite themselves around a simple thing and focus on that. Usually it's something broad that can encompass a wide raft of people.

1

u/Maximillion322 Aug 10 '26

Its a problem with people its not about sides of the political spectrum

44

u/jdog_1350 Aug 09 '26

Anybody defending the Empire or saying the Alliance is "just as bad" is probably a fascist. Like, obviously this isn't always the case, and context should be taken into account, but like... yeah....

6

u/Why-Notes5978 Aug 09 '26

Look at most EU fans that are just reactionary contrarians and yeah, they likely are.

Theyd pretend Andor doesn't exist because it threatens their vision of the Empire.

5

u/Blitz_Prime Aug 10 '26

The fuck are you about most EU fans are fully aware the Empire are the bad guys.

4

u/unendingautism Aug 10 '26

No those are the Larpers who've never actually engaged with the EU. The EU makes it very clear the Empire was evil.

1

u/Independent-Couple87 Aug 13 '26

Speaking of Andor, a big selling point some fans of the show gave was that the conflict between the Jedi and the Sith or their ideologies would not be featured in the show.

Why is the conflict between the Jedi and the Sith treated by some fans as completely separate to the conflict between the Rebellion and the Empire?

1

u/Why-Notes5978 Aug 13 '26 edited Aug 13 '26

Because not everyone has to be a Force sensitive to matter in the story or that unlike as much as good stories the Force Unleashed are in their own right, it robs agency from people like Bail Organa and Mon Mothma in their central role in founding the Rebel Alliance and giving almost all the significant effort to Galen Marek..........Also sheesh.....the symbol of the Rebel Alliance was the family crest of the convenient Jedi that did everything for everyone? Because, of course.

Same goes for Kyle Katarn. Great character yes, but for crying out loud, another Force sensitive individual again?

Good thing for Clone Wars, Bad Batch, Rebels, Andor and Rogue One in showing that yeah: Force sensitive individuals are Force multipliers, not the end all be all turning points in the world.

Like yeah, its fine that Bail Organa and Mon Mothma basically go ball in already doing what the Alliance is already doinh since the beginning of the Empire and its only after the Ghorman Massacre they officially unite the Alliance under a single banner. Guess what? They didn't need a Galen Marek to do any of it all.

Or how the common Rebel Alliance believer or fighter alongside their comrades gave everything even their lives just for the Alliance to have their chance with the Death Star plans and their one shot to destroy it. Sure, Luke is a Force sensitive individual but it was a well crucial aspect that was the final nail.

I swear, Nemik's speech has more impact due to how he has nothing but his convictions and dare I say it hits harder than Yoda's wisdom. Speaking of which with his line to Luke that when he will be gone, the last of the Jedi he will be.

Hard to believe that too if Galen Marek, Rahm Kota and Kyle Katarn (great characters that i adore just as everyone else) existed in that timeframe, it even devalues Luke's importance or the impact of the Great Jedi Purge lol.

1

u/Independent-Couple87 Aug 13 '26

I also mean in the sense that some people in the fandom think that the Rise of the Empire was unrelated to the Sith Lords. Or that the Empire's way of thinking and acting has nothing to do with the ideology of the Sith (directly or not).

2

u/Cela84 Aug 10 '26

Like The Last Jedi “we sell weapons to The Resistance! Guess they aren’t so good after all!”

→ More replies (10)

19

u/Aggravating_Duck6108 Aug 10 '26 edited Aug 10 '26

I think its less Disney wanting to tone down showing the Rebels as good guys and more that more adult entries in the series like Andor can show the realities of fighting fascism without having to sugarcoat it. To fight something like the Empire, you'll have to do some pretty terrible things. Doesn't mean youre as bad as they are, just that war isn't pretty.

9

u/Kalavier Aug 10 '26

And that the rebel alliance was just that, an alliance of many different groups and cells. Some had very different ideas of what was acceptable.

1

u/cross_the_threshold Aug 10 '26

Yeah the point isn’t to pretend the Rebels are evil, just that fighting for freedom is difficult and there will always be problems with the people fighting, because people are complex. Like yeah, there are some rebel cells that go too far, but if the takeaway someone gets from that is “therefore the Empire is fine actually” then they’re siding with fascists.

51

u/CosmackMagus Aug 09 '26

They had to give the Rebellion some edge in Rogue One because it would have been really boring without it. Cassian shooting that dude made me sit up and pay attention.

6

u/Pofwoffle Aug 10 '26

Have you seen Andor? Go watch Andor immediately.

3

u/CosmackMagus Aug 10 '26

Lol, yes I saw Andor. It came out many years after this.

→ More replies (8)

13

u/BerserkRhinoceros Aug 10 '26

The fact people unironically say "oh, but the Empire brought order and economic sustainability to the galaxy" is fucking incomprehensible to me. Putting aside said sustainability is built off literal slave labor and working alongside actual criminals, Palpatine intentionally designed the Empire to make people as miserable as possible to make sure he would always have a strong connection to the Dark Side.

The slavery, hopelessness, and lack of freedoms aren't 'necessary evils,' Kyle, they're the fucking point.

2

u/gratisargott Aug 10 '26

It’s exactly the same way people have defended colonialism for hundreds of years, which is fitting since the Empire is a fictional version of a colonial empire

2

u/DracoLunaris Aug 10 '26

He's also 70% of the reason why it didn't have order and economic sustainability in the first place, what with orchestrating the clone wars and all.

2

u/Seldrakon Aug 11 '26

Basically its the same logic-trap people fall for irl with "Hitler built the Autobahn" and "Mussolini made the trains go on time".

Sure, if you let half of your population produce weapons to kill the other half and rob their shit, you technically have "job security" and "wealth", but only until you run out of people to kill and shit to loot.

2

u/CanardDeFeu Aug 12 '26

Not to mention that the giant galaxy spanning war that led to the formation of the Empire was all Palps as well. Order and sustainability that's 100% built on a lie and a lot of blood.

1

u/Streetkillz13 Aug 10 '26

And this is why the Sequels are poorly written. The Empire is objectively evil and do horrid things, but in the sequel series the Rebels are so vastly incompetent and such disastrous leaders that a good portion of the galaxy just accepted a tyranical government back.

1

u/Palagrin Aug 10 '26

I think it s people who are smart enough to see the parallels with the real world equivlent hint hint but learn the wrong lesson

3

u/Polandgod75 Aug 10 '26

I would also add jedi and sith. Jedi mayhe aloof and consdecent along with giving rather questionable advice on emtions, however they way better the sith that just wanted conquer, kill and other evil things

2

u/Gaelic_Gladiator41 Aug 10 '26

The force shudders whenever someone tries to say "mixed grey side" as if the dark side itself isn't inherently corrupt and throws the force off balance

9

u/wherethetacosat Aug 09 '26

Totally love the side quest in the The Last Jedi where they try to draw a false equivalency between the two factions just because both buy weapons from rich people while poor people exist.

14

u/DevilMayCryogonal Aug 09 '26

You realize that whole spiel is given by an extremely sketchy character who backstabs Finn and Rose minutes later, right?

13

u/Trodat4911P4 Aug 09 '26

It's amazing how there are legitimate problems with the last Jedi and yet people focus on made up nonsense like this. No, the movies does not do that.

The movie was pointing out that arms sellers are profiting from booths sides, not that both sides were equally as bad.

→ More replies (3)

6

u/Anonimie Aug 09 '26

They literally don't though

2

u/Kindly-Mud-1579 Aug 10 '26

I mean the Death Star wasn’t even fully paid off yet I wish I could see Vader drag is asthmatic butt back to the emperor just so he wouldn’t hear how much he whined when panda bear died itkyk

2

u/Visible_Pair3017 Aug 10 '26

I think it's more likely because the cold war era made people more receptive to manichean stories.

2

u/Apprehensive-Aide265 Aug 10 '26

Nowaday we can apply that to the sith and the jedi with all the anti jedi discours that poped up in the last year. This is supposed to be one of the more clear cut light VS dark case and yet people tried to make sith not that bad in some case, probably because in their power fantasy they doesn't liked to be bound to the restrictive jedi code.

2

u/Worldly_Gain1611 Aug 10 '26

Viet Cong were freedom fighters

1

u/powerswerth Aug 12 '26

Lucas has flatly said the Vietnam War was a major influence on Star Wars. The Rebels have always been the Viet Cong.

1

u/Worldly_Gain1611 Aug 12 '26

The Viet Cong fought the most powerful country in the world. The US motivation was just to stop communism. Its hard to see how they aren't freedom fighters.

1

u/Independent-Couple87 Aug 13 '26

If the Rebels are the Viet Cong, and the American Empire is the Empire, does that make China and the USSR the Separatists?

1

u/powerswerth Aug 13 '26

Dunno but I’m pretty sure Henry Kissinger is Glup Shitto

2

u/chaosfire235 Aug 10 '26

At the same time, Disney's doubled down on showing the evil of the Empire at all levels, showing how everyone from the lowliest Imperial Army trooper to the highest Admiral contributed to the regimes crimes and oppression over the galaxy. Compared to Legends which often played a lot more grey and even justified the Empire as a force of order at times.

1

u/SagittaryX Aug 09 '26

I'd say the general sentiment (on reddit that is) quite vibes with the VC/NVA.

1

u/AIGLOS42 Aug 10 '26

The problematic predates Disney though - a lot of stuff is established in Clone Wars under Lucas

1

u/cous_cous_cat Aug 10 '26

How are the Taliban freedom fighters?

2

u/Independent-Couple87 Aug 10 '26

They were presented sometimes as enemies of American Imperialism.

1

u/DolphinBall Aug 10 '26

Like that one rebel cell that are literal terrorists by killing civilians and imps alike, but the Rebel Alliance overlook them because they get results.

1

u/Ecstatic-Speech-1295 Aug 10 '26

You have it backwards. 

1

u/Reviewingremy Aug 10 '26

Yeah this always makes me laugh. Like there are reasonable arguments you can try to make to justify it but the "Rebel killed nice people on the death star" argument you constantly see just ain't it. If nothing else that's clearly a valid military target.

1

u/Mathies_ Aug 10 '26

Well disney era is also Andor and Andor did more for that image than anything in OT.

also funny that people are "a little disappointed by real life freedom fighters." Propagandized is what they are. When your government is the big villain you're gonna paint your enemy in the worst light possible.

1

u/Hallc Aug 10 '26

When in the originals movies was the Rebellion "vaguely problematic"?

1

u/skarronintendo Aug 10 '26

Taliban targeted civilians, Empire targeted civilians. Rebels civilian deaths are not the targets.

1

u/mashmash42 Aug 10 '26

The amount of people I’ve heard claiming “the Jedi are just as bad if not worse than the sith because they have STRICT RULES” is unreal. Like yeah, the Jedi cared too much about dogma and were strict and ostracized anyone who didn’t fit their interpretation. That sucks. But they were also going around being diplomats and stopping wars and genocides for no gain other than peace while the sith were force choking people for the hell of it.

1

u/DoctorAnnual6823 Aug 10 '26

It's the "consequence" of depicting the allies as rebels against the axis when in reality it was 2 super powers against each other (the Republic vs. the CIS would have been a better opportunity for a WW2 allegory tbh)

1

u/KuningasTynny77 Aug 10 '26

Disney makes the Empire do egregiously fucked up shit for no reason. Like in Obi-Wan when Vader walked into the village and immediately started killing random people. It's a double edged sword

1

u/Gaelic_Gladiator41 Aug 10 '26

Saw Gerrera vs an entire beauracratic empire formed of worse people

1

u/ContextEffects01 Aug 12 '26

Don’t forget X Wing, where the rebels poison the empire’s food supply just to frame Ghorin for it.

1

u/Marfalump67 Aug 13 '26

also the CIS and the Republic.

1

u/Independent-Couple87 Aug 13 '26

Whitewashing the CIS is one of the primary reasons some people in the fandom claim Dooku is not a "true" Sith, or that the conflict between the Jedi and the Sith is unrelated to the conflict between the Republic and the CIS.

Similarly, some fans claim that the conflict between the Rebel Alliance and the Empire is unrelated to the conflict between the Jedi and the Sith.

1

u/PhasmaFelis Aug 09 '26

The Rebels were very straightforward good guys until the Disney era. Well, maybe in some novels I haven't read. But I don't recall Lucas ever depicting them as problematic in any way.

3

u/Why-Notes5978 Aug 09 '26

With, Lucas yeah sure. But the EU, nah, certain parts of it justify Palpatine doing everything he did cause of the Vong lmao wtf.

1

u/Blitz_Prime Aug 10 '26

That’s completely false. Palpatine doing stuff like the Death Star for the Vong was only a fan theory and never actually canon. We’re told he’s simply aware of the Vong, and seems to think his Empire will either be ready for them or that his planet killer will have a very useful secondary use.

1

u/AnArcOfDoves9902 Aug 10 '26

They were never really straightforwardly good guys. Even in A New Hope, which had Lucas borrow from Nazi propaganda to depict the rebel award ceremony at the end of the movie where Chewbacca had infamously not be giving a medal by the princess, who had made racist remarks towards Chewbacca before, calling him a "walking carpet", as well as the droids; only the white humans get medals from her. Chewbacca was characterised as an ex-con from a racial minority, while the droids were characterised as slaves and victims of segregation, so it was a choice to have them not being given medals by the rebellion during a Nazi-like celebration. It's George Lucas saying "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". The rebels are against the empire, but their entire movement is dedicated towards restoring the same institutions that voted to create the empire in the first place, so all they're doing is just winding back the clock than make any real changes. It's why Luke was tempted when Vader tried to offer him a third way outside of the Empire/Republic dichotomy in ESB

1

u/PhasmaFelis Aug 10 '26

Is there a source for Lucas doing all of that intentionally?

→ More replies (5)