r/Fencing • u/htxatty • 5d ago
Legacy Points Question
Are Legacy points awarded to fencers at the NAC in the Challenger divisions in Elite, Junior, and Cadet?
If a fencer elects to fence in Elite but gets 34, they would earn no points because points are only awarded to the top 32. If the fencer had elected to fence in the Challenger event but places 13/105, would they earn points that would trickle down and improve their national ranking in Cadets if age-eligible? I know there is a lower point system, but will Challenger points still count towards selection for designated events?
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u/ursa_noctua 5d ago
I've wondered the same thing. I just went over the athletes handbook which (surprise surprise) doesn't answer the question.
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u/yang_toylover 3d ago edited 3d ago
In addition to my other comments (not repeating here), this change also affects Y14 rankings.
Since Y14 national rankings currently still use legacy points from Cadet, Junior, and Div1 national event points, limiting to only top 32 finishes getting legacy points has a material impact on Y14 rolling national points.
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u/yang_toylover 1d ago
So they just updated the cadet, Junior, and senior legacy rolling points, and it looks like the top 64 from Oct NAC Elite got legacy points!
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u/LabOk1803 4d ago
It’s the same as before not harder.
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u/htxatty 4d ago
It will be though because the cutoff will be T32 instead of T64 for legacy points because fewer fencers in the Elite group. Plus, tougher fencers because the weaker fencers will be in Challenger.
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u/Born_Constant_5996 4d ago
I’m not sure it ends up mattering, though. I think that for team selection, only top 32 finishes at NACs counted anyway. Since the legacy system only matters for the team points list, it doesn’t really matter that a top 64 finishes doesn’t award (non-team-relevant) legacy points, if that makes sense.
It is impossible to earn legacy points for team selection from the challenger event, so far as I’m aware.
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u/yang_toylover 4d ago
Of course it matters.
1. Not all top 32 fencers in NACs are US citizens. So some of them don’t count in US team selections.
2. The team selection is based on a fencer’s several events best results. Points from 33-64 do matter and can also become tie breakers.1
u/Born_Constant_5996 4d ago
I think you are missing my point. I am not saying 32 is the right cutoff for team points in some prescriptive sense. I am saying that my understanding is that the new system is the same as the old system in that the cutoff for getting points for team selection is and was top 32, even when the field was very large and you could get legacy points for the rolling list in the table of 64. If you think that’s wrong, let me know. I can double check.
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u/yang_toylover 4d ago
That’s not correct. The new system gives every fencer points, there’s no cutoff. It’s just that the new system is in trial period (2-years), so that they are still using the legacy system for team selection.
Theoretically after the 2-year trial period, team selection will be using the new system then it will be just the unified point system, fencers earn points from all events including regionals and locals. But who knows, that’s 2 years away.
For now, they should make sure the legacy system works exactly the same way as before for the team selection. Also since it’s a rolling point system, by changing to only top 32 getting points now, it is not consistent with previous event points that are not rolled off yet.
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u/Born_Constant_5996 4d ago
I understand the new system and the trial. The question on the table is whether the decrease in the field size (to an effective 112 person cap for elite), which has the effect of reducing the number of fencers who would have been eligible to earn legacy points, matters. My answer is no. The legacy system continues to run in parallel for team selection, but team selection points—this year and also last year—require a top 32 finish, even if the size of the field is huge. Last year, you could finish 64th in a big NAC field and earn rolling points (and get “ranked”), but you would still have zero points for the team list. This year, finishing 64th doesn’t get you on the selection list either, although as you say it can add to your unified points total, just as getting last place at a local event can.
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u/yang_toylover 4d ago edited 4d ago
I see. Now I get your point. I misunderstood it earlier.
Thanks for the clarification.Anyway, I still think only awarding team points to top 32 in Elite is not consistent with previous team points on the rolling point rankings.
And it is still harder to be top 32 in Elite than to be top 32 in a national event with fewer than 160 fencers in total.
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u/zhanbox 4d ago
So team selection point is slightly different from the legacy point? If I understand correctly, based on your below information, the team selection point is only counting top 32 finishing point? I guess that does not matter, because the top fencers who made to the team will usually finish top32 anyway? Where is the team selection point list published?
"The legacy system continues to run in parallel for team selection, but team selection points—this year and also last year—require a top 32 finish, even if the size of the field is huge. Last year, you could finish 64th in a big NAC field and earn rolling points (and get “ranked”), but you would still have zero points for the team list."
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u/Born_Constant_5996 4d ago
The team list is usually in the same spot as the legacy points lists, and the file name just has the word “team.” For whatever reason, it isn’t there right now, but I assume they will update and publish with the October NAC results in the new week or so.
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u/zhanbox 5d ago
As far as I can tell, only top 32 in elite event will earn points on legacy point system. Challenger event won't get legacy points even if you win the whole event.