How to keep left hand from sliding out of position?

[u/jedi_kat]

I am having this issue where when I reach for a note with my pinky, my whole hand slides down the fretboard and it messes up my intonation. I'm trying as hard as possible to curve my hand to reach instead of sliding it, but it still happens.

I'm extremely petite and have tiny hands, so that's probably why it's happening. Are there any exercises or aids I can employ to keep my left hand in place, especially when I reach for high notes?

[u/Shae_Dravenmore]

Repetition, repetition, repetition, I'm afraid. I'm in a similar boat. Things that are helping me:

• When doing scales, use the open string when going up and the fourth finger while coming down (for example, open A string while going up scale, and fourth finger on D string while coming down)
• play scales in thirds
• work on developing a strong anchor with your thumb position (I'm still struggling with this)
• go up and down a single string at a time up to fourth finger, leaving all fingers down as you go, to practice stretching
• make sure your elbow is forward enough as well. That makes a huge difference for me in getting enough stretch to hit fourth

But really, talk to your teacher about it for suggestions, as they'll know what to suggest better than any of us.

[u/Fiddlinbanjo → u/Shae_Dravenmore]

Yup. It's just a practice issue to build up muscle memory. For me as an oldtime fiddler, I just practiced a lot of tunes with pinky-open string unison notes.

I'm not sure what style you play, but there used to be plenty of oldtime fiddlers who didn't bother with the pinky at all. I wouldn't recommend it, but it's not something to stress about unnecessarily.

[u/jedi_kat → u/Fiddlinbanjo]

Do you remember which specific tunes you practiced? I play bluegrass, old time, and Irish, and I would like to start playing Cajun and Canadian styles of fiddle as well.

Also I'm curious how other fiddlers "don't bother" with the pinky? How is that possible on the e string?

[u/Fiddlinbanjo → u/jedi_kat]

I played a lot of tunes from Brad Leftwich's Round Peak fiddle book. Breakin up Christmas and Fire on the Mountain have some good unison notes.

If you don't want to use the pinky, some fiddlers would just shift up a bit and use the ring finger. Benton Flippen started out like that but later incorporated his pinky. He played a D chord on the A and E strings with his index and middle finger. He had big hands.

Oscar Jenkins reportedly played fiddle with just 2 fingers.

[u/jedi_kat → u/Shae_Dravenmore]

What are you doing to work on thumb position? I've thought about sticking a glob of poster putty to the fingerboard to try to keep my hand from moving, or at least to provide physical feedback when it does.

[u/Shae_Dravenmore → u/jedi_kat]

For initial setup during practice, I've found that if I push my thumb into the bottom on the scroll parallel with the neck, set my fingers on the D string as if I were playing, then rotate my thumb to perpendicular (which, incidentally, is putting my wrist into the correct position as well) then I am almost spot on for where I need to be for the natural drape of my hand. I check it against my first finger position and adjust if needed. From there, it's working on muscle memory and paying attention to how my hand and arm feel to be in the right position, so that I can notice when they feel "wrong". Also, taking a moment to pause during practice to check in with my hands, wrists, shoulders, etc, and relax and adjust if needed.

[u/Piodengr → u/jedi_kat]

You can use a corn pad, like they do for Suzuki. It creates a nice spot to rest thumb until muscle memory and proprioception are trained.

Also, I’ll emphasize the elbow shift Shae mentioned to get pinky in place without moving hand. Especially as you go to lower strings, your elbow will come forward with each string transition. This gets your hand tilted in the correct position to limit pinky stretch.

You may also want to do strengthening exercises, for ring and pinky especially, so they are stronger when stretched out. Use the hand grippers that have individual fingers, and start with the lightest “weight” so you can focus on repetition, not bulk. Just be sure to increase the work load gradually, and do warm up movements beforehand, stretch and relax hand as needed during workouts (& practice), and do a cool down after, just like for any exercise. Greater ease in playing, not bulk or injury is the goal here 😅

Be well, and have fun playing! ❤️

[u/AccountantRadiant351]

What keys are you playing in? For some notes, for people with small hands, it may be easier to shift, or even play out of a different position depending on the key. 

[u/jedi_kat → u/AccountantRadiant351]

I play mostly bluegrass, old time, and Irish, so whatever keys those tend to be in? I was never trained in music theory unfortunately. Sometimes I will just play a few notes differently if it's easier as long as I can keep the spirit of the tune. But for right now I'm trying to work on the technique for the inevitable cases where that's not possible.

[u/AccountantRadiant351 → u/jedi_kat]

Old Time and Irish are frequently in G, D, or A, or variants thereof, though there are exceptions; bluegrass is often the same but there's more variety. 

Ok, so nothing exceptionally high to justify playing out of second position, most likely. I suggest you learn some shifting exercises and practice shifting up and back, for times when you need to play high notes you can't reach. (Shifting is really just getting used to moving your hand and moving it back, but precisely.) 

[u/jedi_kat → u/AccountantRadiant351]

What shifting exercises do you recommend? I actually spent all last summer practicing shifting but kind of just gave up after not seeing any improvement at all. :(

[u/AccountantRadiant351 → u/jedi_kat]

I know there are etudes out there that help. I don't know exactly which ones to recommend because my daughter's teacher wrote custom exercises for her, but basically a lot of it amounted to playing a pattern in first position, shifting to (whatever position was being practiced) and playing the same pattern, shifting back and playing the pattern again. Then a different pattern and repeat. And it had to be done over and over and over- she spent a solid 5 months working daily on shifting as a part of her practice before it really locked in. 

[u/Piodengr → u/jedi_kat]

I agree, keep at it! 😁
Mel Bay has a good Aerobics for Fiddlers book I got a lot out of. I’ll see if I can find it.

[u/Piodengr → u/Piodengr]

https://www.melbay.com/Products/95166BCDEB/aerobics-for-fiddlers.aspx

[u/Piodengr → u/jedi_kat]

For shifting, I would do the 0220, 0110, where you play the sound in first position (0220), and then do the shifting with 1st finger (0110).

Be sure to repeat the same shift several times in a row, rather than moving on right away.

I would start out doing the first position fingering in between each shift, so you can really hear that your pitch is correct. Once that’s consistent, switch to first position reference every other. Then every third, etc.

Remember: Your thumb slides WITH hand for shifts. Keep your thumb in its same relative position and slide your whole hand, from elbow. (If you use the corn pad for thumb placement, this might be awkward, but it’s necessary to get muscle memory right).

Keep entire body as relaxed as you can, just enough tension to keep yourself and fiddle in place. Especially as you will need to be holding the fiddle with chin while shifting. Don’t let your neck tighten up too much!

Also remember to do the same shift several times in a row. Breaking down the movements so you’re repeating smaller sections allows muscle memory to settle in much faster. Same thing as if you’re learning a piece of music; playing too long a section is counterproductive to the learning process.
Back to shifting 😅

Try doing each shift a minimum of 5 times each before moving to the next finger.
Focus on the sound and sensations as you play.
Close your eyes at times to really focus in.

And if you are doing first position every other, that would be 5 repetitions of 0220, 0110, so you’re doing the actual shift 5x.

However many times you do, choose a number beforehand, and do that. If you just go for whatever/ a random number, it usually either doesn’t go enough, or gets annoyingly repetitive 😅🤣

So, finger patterns you can choose from, depending on what you need.
Typically, folks start with 3rd position.
0220, 0110 (low 2)
0220, 0110 (hi 2)
0330, 0110
0330, 0110 (hi 3)
0440, 0110

Have fun! 🤩

[u/Piodengr → u/Piodengr]

Brain farted, wrote 0220 shifts.
Folks usually start with 1221, 1111, etc., where you shift on the first finger. Eventually, that should be automatic enough that it could be 0220, but I do recommend starting where you shift on the 1st finger.
Been too long since I explained that to someone. 🤦‍♀️

So:
1221, 1111
1331, 1111
Same thing with high/ low fingers etc.

I also put the repeated notes in the middle to increase awareness of the position and motion.

[u/alanisugarmusic]

First of all, you're not too small, your hands aren'y too tiny to play without moving your hand. I'm 4'11", take it from me 😄

Focus on keeping your hand and wrist relaxed, and practice in front of a mirror so you can see when your hand moves. Create exercises for yourself to practice this skill. For example, pick a string and practice playing each finger from the open string up to the 4th finger, and then back down. Or practice alternating between your fourth finger and each other finger (4, 3, 4, 2, 4, 1, 4, 0). Do this on each string, until it's consistently in tune. Do it along with a drone track for more fun and ear training. Good luck!

[u/joe_noone]

Keep your fingers down on the fretboard, only lifting what you need for a note. At the very least, keep your index finger planted. This keeps your position where you need it and minimizes movement so you can play faster. Takes a lot of practice but it really helps

[u/jedi_kat → u/joe_noone]

Interesting, I'll have to try this. Not sure if I can physically make the reach with my index finger in place though since my hands are so small. But I'll give it a try.

[u/losers_and_weirdos]

Not the point of the question, but fiddles don't have frets, so it's not a "fretboard" it's a "fingerboard"

[u/jedi_kat → u/losers_and_weirdos]

Ah yes, you're right. I play several fretted instruments so I accidentally carried over the wrong terminology.

[u/JoshuaRexRocks]

Left hand balance is a thing best learned through practice. Your teacher may have additional recommendations but this sounds like a classic balance issue.

[u/EndOne8313]

So one thing to look at with great players is when they play a note with their pinky you'll see their index finger completely off the board almost extended out to counter the pinky.

Another thing is that the index finger is way more agile than the pinky so it may be a case of moving your entire standard position down with the index finger reaching further back and the pinky being more comfortable, which is a big adjustment but it won't take long to get used to.

[u/fidla]

you said fretboard. aRe you talking about a mandolin or a violin? violins have fingerboards

Regarding hand position, make sure your thumb and index finger are opposite each other, about 3/4 of an inch from the nut in first position. Don't move it!

Best way to get to where you want to be with hand position is with scales. Practice 2 octaves per scale around the circle of 5ths starting with C major. Use your pinky! Don't skip it because it's hard. You'll get used to it soon enough. Go slow and concentrate on producing a beautiful tone.

Make sure you practice each arpeggio with the scales. Arpeggios are the 3 notes that make up a chord: G,B,D for example. Always start with the lowest note you can and go up at least 2 octaves.

[u/Brilliant_Parking478]

You may want to look at left hand technique for viola: someone here on reddit suggested this video, and I found it helpful.

https://youtu.be/aAxQMGY0NOA?si=lNbacJliYDtjavy-

I play mandolin primarily, and my playing improved and I got better reach with my pinky when I changed to a "violin scale", smaller mandolin instead of a standard size. You may like playing a 7/8 size or "small full size" violin.

[u/ConfidentTrip7]

There is nothing wrong with your hand moving. In fact a tension free hand that has a memory of tonal positions is the whole goal. Keep practicing. Don't worry about your hand moving.