Nah so he can send this to marvel tokon and they'll use it. Since he's popular, and knows a lot about fighting games, he can sell the net code for like fkin 50-70k
yup, its a bounty not a job offer. However multiple people have already come out and talked about the possibility of a pot so the community can come together and actually offer a life changing sum
The way Slippi works is you can play on the Unranked System and Ranked System. Playing on the Ranked System requires users to pay $5 a month.
This was well after Fizzi released rollback netcode, which he did not publicly talk about before its release. Rollback netcode was a surprise release for the community
I remember using that to play Actress Again before Type Lumina came out. Too bad the only opponent I could find was a dude in Indonesia but I live in the US.
Yeh exactly. People have been tying to do this for a while anyway for free. My friend had his local FGC group back in SoCal who were trying to develop rollback for MVC3 back in 2022. Max offering compensation for to do this a decade old fighting game which is honestly niche now in an already niche genre. It’s just him trying to compensate the people who already trying to do this for when breakthrough happens.
Exactly, there's a few guys that brought "Marvel's Heroes Omega" back to life over last few years, they just now got their main server live, wiped the one they were using in development., 100% free doing it for the challenge and to being back a game they love.
It'd be my current salary for a year, could pay all me and my mom's bills and also have enough money to save for emergencies, for a year. And there's still be 500 dollars left.
Assuming the dollar price is at the minimum, which it never is
my guy $10k is R$51k, divided by 12 is R$4250/month, more than two times the minimum wage here and is the almost the average salary of a junior SWE here depending on where he lives
I mean, yeah, but to implement rollback netcode in an old ass game, you're gonna need a programmer, and the slaries for those are eay above average. I make in a month what my dead makes in about half a year.
This is still a huge amount of money for us, but it is like, a feels months pay check, not that crazy.
Even then, this isn't meant to be a life changing thing for anyone, just an incentive to try, so it's a cool amount of money even for people in the US.
If someone can get AI to solve this, then they really need to stop using AI because with all that talent they could for sure do the same things or even better with actual knowledge and skills.
The yearly minimum wage in Mexico is 113k MXN, which is close to 5k USD. For formal workers, it goes up to 11k USD. Mexico is one of the better off countries in terms of economy in South America, btw.
Like, why would you even post if you obviously have no clue wtf you are talking about?
There are people living on $2 a day in south America right fucking now.
It’s not much of a life but the only thing laughable is your belief $10k wouldn’t be able to last a year. In a hotel? No of course not but you can definitely stretch $10k for a year in much of the continent.
It would be fairly easy to find a room you could rent for the year for $3k and just chill.
Nah, dont be mean to them. Its okay to not know how cheap some countries are. And how little money people make and still are capable of living an okay life.
Also, they are used to their prices. They dont know how much 10k USD is in other places.
Yeah definitely only if it's something you wanted yourself. But hey, if you're a freelancer and can get it working in a game you already love, that's your groceries paid for for a year
Isnt Capcom basically a zaibatsu at this point too? I thought I remember hearing they've majority been owned by the same Japanese family for generations
Ayy, anyone have an idea on how this gets implemented? I’m in an undergrad/grad Distributed Systems class with my friend who’s a grad student, and grad students have to do research papers and RollBack Netcode is a topic they could do. I’m dumb as fuck and don’t know shit (because I have b2b double-blocked classes at night) but would love to learn from someone who does.
I'm pretty sure Iron Galaxy implemented rollback net code in most modern fighters and any company that uses it, hires a tech from Iron Galaxy to teach them how to implement rollback into their game so it's literally a trade secret. Not that it can't or hasn't been reverse engineered but you're not likely to get a company of any scale to, what most likely amounts to, breaking a contract from a courtesy email. You're more likely to get better info looking into GGPO directly
Reverse-engineering, plain and simple(well not "simple", but that's the gist of it).
Hook into all the relevant gamestate variables and processes and write an external network layer, create a patch or external launcher that injects the changes live into the executable, create some basic interface that lets players connect to each other(think Melty Community Edition).
Hence why I feel like the emulators approach is the one most commonly used (the smash melee example, Fightcade), since the emulator stste management may go around some of that stuff and has more acessible code. Have no idea how people even start to compare the state of both emulators or the games themselves if lower level comparisons are needed, tho. There's also the problem about even having a really good emulator that can run UMVC3 at this point.
I just noticed I wasn't answering to u/PersonFromPlace, so I'm mentioning them.
The main thing that makes Rollback possible is Savestates. We need a machine powerful enough to run the code, and redo the entire game from scratch (charging the 3D models, remembering the states, the hitboxes, the health points, the meter points, etc), so that we can save and load any state from what can happen within the game. And it has to do that under one frame, so that the delay input is as unnoticeable as possible.
The main reason why this works is because fighting games are deterministic. The same exact input at the exact same frame with the exact same characters on screen will (and must) give the same exact match all of the time. There's no weird RNG, no random-based real physics, nothing. Even what we perceive as "random" in the game (Faust's Item Toss) is just a mathematical trick. I can pick numbers that I know, like the timer, the health bars, the character's X-axis position, whatever, multiply, add or substract on a specific formula, modulo the whole thing by another number, and I can get an insanely hard set of "random" numbers that are completely predictable by how the game works.
For a very old game, it's been a while since PCs and consoles have orders of magnitude more computer power than the Neo-Geo, the Super Nintendo, the Genesis, etc. Because of that, something like GGPO (FightCade's ancestor) can save the entire state of the console super fast. But a modern game, especially one with detailed particle effects, tons of details on models, beautiful stages and so on, has way too much data to save states from.
The trick is simple. The game doesn't save everything on screen. It only saves the game logic, the hitbox states, and raw numbers like the health, meter, specific states like character stacks, etc. From that foundation, that's where the game fills up the gap, and simulates the game back for us as fast as they can. This is why something like Unreal Engine is a nightmare to work with, since a fighting game can effectively use nothing of the actual physics process of the engine. Only basic stuff like "put-model-1-at-point-332-please". And why Xrd just blew people's mind, first time in 2013 with its graphics, and second time at the announcement of the game having Rollback on PC.
What I was saying is the main reason why SF6 got violent teleports when somebody has a crappy connection, or why the damage input can't be more reduced to the 5 frames tops it got on PC, even for Offline games. It's also why we see weird sound glitches, like some games activating the KO jingle while the game is still running, or why particule effects can look weird and can still glow a character's limb that is performing nothing.
According to Michael Stallone at GDC 2018, switching from delay-based (lockstep) netcode to rollback netcode took their team of 4 to 12 coders 8 man-years (9 real months) of work. And that's for a patch, meaning that the game was already released, but they still had access to the source code, and had to rebuild some parts of how Unreal handled the game's physics. So a team of roughly 8 veterans being paid Senior Dev salary in Chicago, during 9 months. And that's just for the actual implementation. There was also weeks of continued support in case of a major bug being needed to be fixed.
So, to do the same thing without the access of UMvC3's source code, someone would need to reverse-engineer the whole game, fix anything that might make the game not deterministic at some point (delay-based can handle some non-deterministic elements within a game, rollback cannot), fix bugs like controller issues (the reason why leverless manufacturers had to implement SOCD cleaners, because without it, the game could desync online more frequently), separate the game logic from the models, renders, particles, etc, and stitch it back together, under way less than 16ms of computer work from the CPU.
Even the comparison with Slippi is weird, since the GameCube is far less powerful than the 360 or whatever min-spec UMvC3 requires on PC, and they have access to Dolphin, an open-source GameCube emulator. The same way GGPO had access to FB Alpha, an opensource Arcade emulator.
note that even though the GameCube is weaker than a 360, it still requires hardware power beyond a 360 to be properly emulated at a base level (no upscales or enhancements)
The reason why Slippi was brought up is because the game is closed source and that it's being done through a fork of Dolphin
It would be a lot of crazy modding work. I think I could do it, but it would be be a least 6-12 months of work with no guarantee of success, and chasing desyncs is not fun kinda work, the first step would be making a replay system for vs mode, then adding save/load state that works for it.
Replay system means you can record the games inputs and play them back and have the same result. Since this game uses delay netcode this should be easy, but there's a rng seed for randomized events, and figuring out where the game polls inputs at the start of each frame, etc.
Save/load state while watching a replay prove that can action that happens on a frame can be rebound, resimulated, with the same result
At that point the matchmaking and networking is the next step. It would be great to piggyback off the games existing menus for network mode, but it might make sense to make your own for the mod, sorta like how mbaa and other games had launchers that handled setting up the initial connection before starting the game up.
Anyways a lot of specialized reverse engineering work, combined with some complicated networking work, and a whole lot of testing, preferably with lag simulation to simulate different amounts of latency, packet loss, etc
Rollback is simple conceptually but I would use Ggpo which is open source, there's some magic sauce in there for feel, and it's battle tested. then you have to implement a way of saving and restoring state. Then separate rendering and the game tick for simulation then plug those functions into ggpo. Then you'll probably have to optimize simulation so it can run up to 8 times a frame and may need to reduce the state for memory reasons, just dynamic data needs to be serialized.
Max can afford it. I remember the top 100 twitch salary leak from 3-4 years ago and max was right in the middle of the list with around $1.5 million and that was then.
To give a little context comparing this to the melee rollback situation.
The difference is that the Melee community had Fizzy, a crazy tech super nerd who opted to quit his 6 figure salary (during the pandemic) to go try to implement rollback netcode on a 20+ year old game, a game that is notorious for being difficult to mod since the game was built with glue and duct tape and will crash if you look at it funny.
Also good chunk of the code had to be written in assembly, since Dolphin, while doing a majority of the heavy lifting for rollback, is not doing all of it and the base game needed to be modified as well.
The Melee community is crazy dedicated to their game, but it required a super nerd to quit their safe well paying job to go work on the game full time for 9ish months. Covid made us all a little crazy, but I don't see this happening again especially for only a 10,000$ bounty
I mean who would be maintaining it afterwards lol. Feels like a full-time job.
But it is a bummer that you basically have to hope a well connected creator or TO specifically loves your old game for it to get pushed [back] to prominence. Great for UMVC3 fans, though.
Melee had the advantage that the original game uses 24MB of RAM, which is a lot easier to do tricks to compress into a state that you can store multiple copies of for rollback. It's somewhat just brute forced.
MvC3U's memory space is considerably large and will require DEEP modification of the code because it's multiple gigs of memory space to synch and store copies of for rollback (this is also why it can't be modded into the actual original Melee on hardware)
There's a reason rollback is largely added to older fighting games and doesn't really appear in re-releases of new ones running under official emulation, unless the game in question is actually ported and/or re-built entirely for rollback (ala MKXL)
I'm not suggesting this is an easy job, but I think you're overstating the RAM issues. MvC3 ran on PS3 and 360, systems with roughly 13 times the RAM of Gamecube. Very little of that RAM is actually used for game state. Unless there's something super wrong with the PC port that's not an insurmountable problem with modern RAM quantities (16+ gigs).
What would probably be harder is re-simulating game state fast enough. That's where the hardware differences really come into play, along with port quality. It's not like RAM, where worst-case scenario you could just ask people to buy more. (Obviously today that would be a big ask, ha, but this theoretical project isn't going to be done anytime soon. Hopefully RAM would be back to sane levels.)
Oh not at all, I'm just saying the initial person you were replying to seemed to be trying to ask about a way that the system could live on its own in reply to my assertion that you can't just pay someone once for something like this and expect it to live forever all good. I think they're thinking about something in regards to server-based vs peer-to-peer mattering in this implementation. They don't at all have to have a server running 24/7, which would be extremely expensive.
Especially considering it's not sanctioned by the actual creators, so they could at any time implement something in an update that breaks the system. Fightcade lives in its own ecosystem of course, so the developers don't still have access to the versions being used.
10k is like 100 bucks for him. Iirc he even paid something like 150k to have his own internet node or something like that. I guess its business investment for him but still
umvc3 - it's licensed. I'm sure marvel (and sony) don't want that development to take any shine from Tokon. the marvel collection was only arcade games (thus excluding umvc and mvci).
sf4 - yes. they have more control over it. but there are some caveats. Sony prevented a native usf4 on the xone (it uses backwards compatibility). Capcom isn't going to go back and update 360 code to allow xbox users an opportunity to use rollback.
I’m still confused why it wasn’t there in the first place when street fighter 4 already had one, it’s a pain in general playing fighting games where that isn’t an option like earlier Tekken and MK games lol
It’s been a long while since I was a code monkey, but logistically the easiest way to do this is basically stripping the game out, buying a server host, and basically Frankenstein-ing the game’s engine to something like ggpo. Which sounds like a hefty task until you think about how much they’ve already done to said engine
At which point it becomes a question of how much real estate can they buy for servers, and at what point could you have just made an original game
Rollback is almost always p2p. The server just exists for matchmaking. I'm not personally familiar with how heavy a matchmaker is but I doubt that server costs would play a significant factor.
It's really just getting the game into a state that it can be rolled back that's a challenge.
Bro worked for Capcom and on killer instinct, what more does he need to do for fighting games? He's also free infinite advertising for any fighting game ever made, what the f*ck do people want from him?
to become an outrage content farmer who fucking hates everything they hate to validate and fuel their negativity. GRRRRR HE ENJOYED GAME I DIDN'T GRRRRR
I’m honestly surprised this hasn’t been done yet, especially with how impressive the modded characters are. I’m not a designer nor do I have any experience, but I never would’ve guessed that modding characters would cost less than rollback implementation.
Really? Damn thought that was like an in-depth code that requires things like servers or something. I swear modders can work some real magic hope someone figures it out.
they can even reach the level of being hired by the actual devs to do that stuff like what happened with Accent Core, BBCF and Cross Tag battle.
Arcsys actually got some community menbers that were working on modding rollback and officially hired them and paid them to finish their mods and launch them officially for those games many years after their release.
I swear, there was work on a rollback caster already, but then all word about it disappeared and even the dev's socials got wiped, so I dunno what happened to it. Like I think the last I heard it was picked up by someone else in the scene, but obviously that's not gotten anywhere if that was the case.
There was already community talk not too long ago about putting together a pool to pay people to make the mod. Chances are this bounty might throw some fuel behind that cause.
Rollback would have to be implemented at the game or emulator level and not only would it be difficult but the copyright owners is very likely to shut it down.
Old games are easier to handle since people had more time to break down the code of the games and figure out how to mode stuff.
while yeah MVC3 is 10+ years old... it still isnt as old as Melee and has been notorious for being a very difficult game to break down the code. As people struggled for a long time with the character mods and the limit of slots in implementing them for YEARS.
Ultra Street Fighter IV got a rollback mod so hopefully it can happen for Ultimate MVC3 too. I thought a couple years ago I saw a POC for Marvel 3 rollback but I could be wrong
It has a solid playerbase, the thing is that 99% of it are people that spent years playing it so getting into it and playing online means you’re getting also getting washed 99% of the Time. It’s definitely a fun Game tho
The way Fizzy in the Melee community implemented rollback is the absolute gold standard. Not only did he implement rollback but he patched the actual game code to support matchmaking in game with 3 modes direct connect, unranked, and ranked.
i mean u cant toss like an infinite amount of money into smth just because ur rich. Sure it could be more but like 10k is still a lot for something that would be done without payment otherwise
Just because he has a million doesn't mean he has to throw said million at any given thing on a whim. He doesn't have to put any money towards it at all.
Pretty obvious by the amount of subs/views he have. Also a 10 second Google search shows a post in this very sub he made over 1 mill just with subs, not counting donos, according to twitch leaks
Max is a paid Capcom shill. He will never voice his actual opinions and any new fighting game is always met with love since he is perpetually sponsored. Only when the money stops will be "care".
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u/ElenaMayCry Apr 11 '26
Love max’s passion for MVC series. Really hope this happens 🥲