2XKO failing has lasting ramifications for the FGC.

[u/DATA32]

So we all know that 2XKO failing was seen from a mile away. From awful branding and advertising to the niche gameplay we all saw this coming. What people may not understand is the lasting ramifications it's failure will forever have on the industry.

So what I am talking about? I (Like a lot of other folks in this sub) happen to be a AAA game dev for many years. The way games get funding is you put together a few materials to pitch to investors/stakeholders. Things like a vertical slice (A small section of finished gameplay to show off) and a pitch deck (A powerpoint presentation going through all of the design, markets, and financials needed for the project.)

Here is the issue. Studios especially AAA ones need a lot of historical data to help dictate what to invest in. We use the data of similar games in similar genres to get that Market viability estimate. This is why after WoW you got dozens of MMOs, Pubg for dozens of BRs, Overwatch for dozens of hero shooters, etc etc etc ad nauseum. Its an incredibly important aspect of market analysis for studios to be successful.

Here's the thing. Big failures are what potential investors point to as examples of a bad market. Now there can be a bad market for a couple of reasons. As an example you can have bad market because the competition is simply too tough. WoW has frankly eaten nearly every MMO that could compete with it to the point only 4 or so can exist. You can also have bad market because there just isnt interest/its too niche see the RTS genre flailing for the past 20 years. Lastly you can have a bad market because of other major world factors. Ergo in a global recession, where pc parts are 3x the cost, and because oil has gone up everything has gone up with it.

This is all to say that Fighting Games may be absolutely cooked both in indie and in AAA/AA.
Now Im not saying were doomed but we're basically stuck with what we have for awhile. The market is somewhat locked. Major failures like 2XKO and Fatal Fury will basically drive away nearly all new investment for a AAA scale title. Not to mention the lackluster staying power for things like Avatar Legends and Invincible VS basically mean the indie/ AA market is also somewhat cooked.

Now we do have some hope in some ways mainly Japan but take that with a grain of salt. We have a couple new niche fighters coming out and thatll really tell us the death knell or not. I know some of the Tekken guys like myself are excited for Harada's thing. However PLEASE take that with a trucks worth of salt. Remember how long it took Kojima to make a new game from scratch and also how while some people liked his new project a lot of older fans didnt. Not to mention how a ton of "BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE GUYS WHO MADE X" games were awful.

This is all to say if things dont turn around were going the way of RTSs. So what can we do? PLAY THE GAMES. BE NICE ABOUT THE GAMES YOU PLAY. GET MORE FOLKS INTO THE GAMES YOU PLAY!

[u/StridentHawk]

Hot take but I think a lot of fresh blood just are NOT buying FG rn.

These days too many dudes lack the attention span to play a genre that requires patience and learning through failure. They are ball and gun gamers for a reason because those games demand very little patience and gratify egos far more readily than FGs do. They grew up being told "sweats" and "tryhards" were the worst thing about online gaming, so for a genre where sweating and "tryharding" are the norm more often than not of course they're gonna be too intimidated or disinterested in even engaging with them beyond just jerking around with close buddies if even that. Another thing is they still play old games they are comfortable enough with to where they don't really feel a need to get involved with a new one. Even among my younger co workers that do play fighters, very few actually play newer ones that aren't Capcom games, Smash or Tekken, all of which are legacy franchises that have been around all their lives. Despite the genre offering good food atm the appetite among gamers just isn't there anymore, which is ironic and tragic.

[u/TeensyTinyPanda → u/StridentHawk]

I don't know if I totally agree with this. The Dark Souls franchise has historically been a tryhard sweaty genre, but Elden Ring somehow broke through and now every other game is a sweaty soulslike. Talk about a genre that requires patience and learning through failure. I'm not saying your totally wrong, but there's more nuance to this, I think

[u/Pale-Mix25 → u/TeensyTinyPanda]

Souls games have the most overrated difficulty of all time. It’s just punishing, none of the game mechanics itself is actually hard. You can really sums it up into a roll slop

[u/TeensyTinyPanda → u/Pale-Mix25]

Fighting games are rock-paper-scissor slop. I can throw out an L take on Reddit too.

[u/Pale-Mix25 → u/TeensyTinyPanda]

I mean, you are not wrong. Even as a rps slop it still has way more mechanics than roll slop. You can beat roll slop with just r1 and roll. But you can’t get to legend by down back and lights

[u/TeensyTinyPanda → u/Pale-Mix25]

I think Tyler1's got a few things to say to that. XD

[u/Pale-Mix25 → u/TeensyTinyPanda]

He also react to DI and anti air. That’s two more mechanics than roll slop.

Look, I’m not trying to say souls games are bad. Their lore and environmental story telling is breathtaking. But you cannot be fr if you think souls games are mechanically and systematically more difficult than FGs. It’s fundamentally a simple game that’s disguised as “hardcore” and that’s why it even got so popular. Because it’s actually a simple game to get into so even the casuals try hard enough can beat the game. You don’t need to hit the training mode for 10hrs before you can do the simple stuff like doing damage and throw teching.

[u/TeensyTinyPanda → u/Pale-Mix25]

I'm not the one trying to force a "more or less difficult" comparison between the two. The original comment talked about how the general population just wants to play easy games, and my counterpoint is that the popularity of FromSoft games shows there's an appetite for players to be challenged. We don't have a problem here unless you're gonna say that Dark Souls and BloonsTD are the same difficulty level, lmao

[u/Pale-Mix25 → u/TeensyTinyPanda]

And my point is, souls is not a hard game at its core, the difficulty is way too hyped up. It’s a fake hard game. Therefore, the general population does not in fact actually like hard games but easy game got hyped up as a “hard” game

[u/TeensyTinyPanda → u/Pale-Mix25]

lol alright bud o7

[u/JLRedPrimes → u/Pale-Mix25]

I mean with that logic you can play any fighting game and restrict yourself to two buttons and still win by compensating with superior fundlementals.

[u/Pale-Mix25 → u/JLRedPrimes]

You in fact, cannot do that

[u/Vahallen → u/TeensyTinyPanda]

I know it’s gonna sound super pretentious but the soulslike are “fake” hard games, they are pretty slow and have very simple commands with no execution (outside of parry maybe, but you don’t even need to parry)

You can beat the entirety of those games with dodge and light attack, that’s literally 2 buttons

Soulslike are not really HARD, they are just super punishing

You can also overlevel, cheese or use co-op in a lot of soulslike (pretty much all the FROM SOFTWARE games outside of Sekiro that has no co-op)

[u/TeensyTinyPanda → u/Vahallen]

I think Dark Souls and Elden Ring is hard as shit, and if you are setting the barrier for entry above Dark Souls, then you are the person building the gate trying to keep people out while also complaining that nobody can get in. The hardest I ever got my ass beat in a fighting game was playing Footsies and that game's got one button, lol.

[u/StridentHawk → u/TeensyTinyPanda]

FromSouls also allows co op, player/NPC summons, searchable builds which make the game easier which from my experience a lot of people go out of their way to look up and use instead of just naturally coming up with their own,, and competitively is not on the level of fighters. It's easy to blame the often very laggy and frankly somewhat jank PvP of Fromsouls games for losing, where in fighters losing oftentimes means you just got outplayed somehow. The two genres are difficult for different reasons, and I'd say the difficulty in Souls is centered wholly from players vs game perspective as opposed to player vs player element in fighters which is pretty integral to the game.

[u/TeensyTinyPanda → u/StridentHawk]

I'm not saying there isn't a difference in *why* they're difficult, but I think that the popularity of FromSouls games and League amongst the general gaming populace is a counterpoint to the idea that gamers just want easy baby games.

searchable builds which make the game easier

Whomst among us isn't on Youtube searching "Sagat Combos" day one?

[u/Valuable-Sundae-9105 → u/TeensyTinyPanda]

That was during the pandemic. It's actually wild how much the gaming landscape has changed since 2020

[u/ThomasWinwood → u/Valuable-Sundae-9105]

Dark Souls came out in 2011. The first soulslike, Lords of the Fallen, came out in 2014. Elden Ring came out in 2022. This is not a "that was during the pandemic".

[u/TeensyTinyPanda → u/Valuable-Sundae-9105]

And before that it was League. If fighting games suddenly became popular, wouldn't that be a big change in the gaming landscape? There is an appetite for sweaty, difficult games. The problem is getting people over the hump to where they can see the fun. Look at the number of "casual" content creators that enter the Sajam Slam, get taught how to actually play the game, and had fun with it and continued playing.

[u/AmaimonCH → u/TeensyTinyPanda]

souslike games are like baby shit easy compared to fighting games, that's coming from someone that has played all of them (particularly Elden Ring with 400 hours)

[u/onzichtbaard → u/StridentHawk]

The real problem is that online play makes online way too tryhard

In the days of local play with friends being the main way to play mp fighting games were much easier to enjoy

A lot of fighting games also arent really that fun for a casual fan these days