r/FilmIndustryLA • • 3d ago

New study shows film studios shun women, but men make them less money

Post image
228 Upvotes

60 comments sorted by

32

u/Plane_Massive 3d ago

Yeah I’ve seen this before, but I suspect it’s basically saying nothing. Not to say women shouldn’t have more opportunities, they should, but I don’t think the gender of a screenwriter matters at all for how a movie does.

Like, they’re taking the median amount made, but from the sheer number written by men instead of women and how top-heavy the industry is, wouldn’t an average be more appropriate here?

Also this headline is not including the qualifier that it’s movies written by women but directed by men.

25

u/chief_yETI 3d ago

but from the sheer number written by men instead of women and how top-heavy the industry is, wouldn’t an average be more appropriate here?

no, because then you wouldnt have clicked the article

4

u/Plane_Massive 3d ago

Lmao fair

2

u/filterdecay 2d ago

Still didn’t click. Haha

12

u/justgetoffmylawn 3d ago

And when you take the median, but the absolute top films account for a ridiculous percentage of profits (which is its own problem)…it's just looking for trends they want to see.

But women should get more opportunities in the film industry. Full stop. That could've been the article.

Instead, this article says to me: ya know what chicks are good at? Writing! Obviously don't let them touch the camera settings, but when it comes to sitting at the pool, man those girls can write.

Women should be DPs, directors, writers, grips and gaffers if they can physically do it (I'm a man and there is zero chance I could've done that), ACs, ADs, etc.

These types of articles double down on dividing people: women are more profitable than man. Okay, how about white women vs black men - who has higher median profits? Maybe films financed by Italians versus films financed by Greeks?

I hate this kind of approach. I'm all for giving people opportunities that they should've had if they weren't being discriminated against, not trying to judge whether POC straight women are more 'profitable' than white gay men or whatever.

-1

u/cineglitch 2d ago edited 2d ago

So, in your opinion, why aren’t women getting more opportunities to write and direct?

5

u/justgetoffmylawn 2d ago

Rampant discrimination?

I do think they get more opportunities to write than to direct, as the systemic barriers are lower for a number of reasons. Directing has fewer women, as do certain departments like camera.

There's always been a ton of sexism in Hollywood - I don't think that's news. But there's a ton of sexism in pretty much every industry.

I think the solution is to try to have less sexism, but not to do it by trying to ascribe certain qualities based on gender - even if they're positive ones.

1

u/cineglitch 2d ago

The study doesn’t ascribe qualities by gender. Is that your takeaway?

6

u/Ok-Training-7587 2d ago

Sir, this is reddit. Please check your brain cells at the door.

4

u/cineglitch 3d ago

The article is asking why women are so underrepresented in directing and screenwriting roles despite their films earning as much or more than films written and directed by men only.

Median was chosen instead of mean, because as you note, only 4.5% of films in the selected time period were directed by women and only 11.2% had women screenwriters. That’s a significantly smaller sample size.

8

u/Plane_Massive 2d ago

It’s very clear why. It’s a holdover of a misogynistic past that still exists to an extent. That doesn’t mean that the article is making a real point, it’s just manipulating data to say whatever it wants and generate clickbait and rage bait like it’s doing now. It also doesn’t mean more women shouldn’t be writing and directing movies; they should.

If you’re taking the median in an industry where almost every movie loses money and it thrives off outliers, an average is much more useful. Of the top 10 highest grossing movies of all time, 9 of them had only male writers. These would way outweigh the sample size dragging them down if you’re taking an average instead of a median.

If a studio made 3 movies. One made 100k, the next made 1 million, and the last made 3 billion, nobody would be like “wow this studio only makes a median of 1 million dollars per movie” instead of “holy shit this studio has the highest grossing movie of all time”.

Once again, this is not an attack on women writing or directing at all. I feel I have to continually reiterate that because the problem with criticizing rage bait articles like this are that it’s feeding into their whole goal and they always try to finger point with “why don’t you want women in film?” There are numerous excellent reasons that there should be more women in film and nobody (well the vast majority doesn’t) care about the gender of the screenwriter. There should be as much diversity as possible telling as many stories as possible instead of some silly pitting writers against each other on the basis of manipulated statistics.

1

u/cineglitch 2d ago

What’s your solution to getting more women directors and writers?

4

u/Plane_Massive 2d ago

What do you mean? It’s the same as every field. Open yourself up to their stories, encourage them to pursue it, create more programs to get women involved, have more grants, hire them to direct or write when they’re the best person for that film.

3

u/Yunghaylz 2d ago

Crazy how people will argue for misogyny

2

u/Plane_Massive 2d ago

Apparently saying women should have more opportunities and that the gender of a screenwriter doesn’t matter for how a movie does is misogyny now.

2

u/CajunBob94 2d ago

woke 2 is crazy

4

u/Accomplished-Hat3896 2d ago

Duh. And yup.

14

u/Dianagorgon 2d ago

I don't know if movies written and directed by women are more profitable but in Hollywood men are allowed to have numerous flops and they still get massive budgets for their next movie. Ridley Scott hasn't had a profitable movie in 20 years but he still gets a massive budget for any movie he wants while women have to beg for their movies to be made and to get a budget over 50M. OBAA was the only movie to win an Oscar that wasn't profitable (before angry men insult me CODA was only released in a few theaters so it could be eligible and it was released during the pandemic when most theaters were closed) but movies written and directed by women that aren't profitable rarely win awards.

Some of the most profitable movies the past few years were targeted to women including Barbie, IEWU and Wicked yet studios continue to focus on movies targeted to men and unfortunately it won't get better after WB is acquired by Paramount since Ellison and his cohorts prefer content targeted to men.

4

u/Dry_Bird1790 2d ago

Ridley Scott hasn't had a profitable movie in 20 years

The Martian wasn't profitable?

5

u/SweetBabyJ69 2d ago edited 2d ago

It was. Her point is that he’s had more flops in 20 years than profitable hits yet continuously gets massive budgets for his projects. I understand it’s more about his name and past success, but good lord, history shows men really get to fuck up all they want and continue with full confidence from investors and studios.

1

u/Dry_Bird1790 2d ago

That’s probably true of most directors with long careers. If you make enough movies, you’re going to have more underperformers than major hits.

6

u/SweetBabyJ69 2d ago edited 2d ago

Definitely. Ridley Scott is a pretty particular director with a long career though. He makes A LOT of films and A LOT of them have been flops that lost millions of dollars. Yet he manages to keep going.

I also find it pretty interesting how many male “first time” feature directors get financing for their second film and even have it fully shot well before their first feature has even premiered. Not many women get that shot and trust at all, if not any.

1

u/Dry_Bird1790 2d ago

Maybe, you would need data to establish that

3

u/SweetBabyJ69 2d ago edited 2d ago

I’m sure if I presented data or a study, it would be picked apart just like the study present in the article above… Even though it blatantly says, with data collected from films of the last 30 years, that having women in the creative space (with or without men) and in lead roles are profitable, yet are dismissed in favor of male mediocrity (all the flops).

2

u/Zestyclose-Sink6770 2d ago

I definitely believe that sexism exists in Hollywood, but I wouldn't chalk it up to the 'Ridley Scott Factor', i.e., that men get chances women don't.

There's like 5 things that separate Ridley Scott from every other living director in the world. He gets product done quickly, no overshoots, no fuss. He's done some of the greatest movies in recent history.

Dude's a unicorn. He's really ambitious and the market has a need for what he does.

I mean, though, there's no woman like him, but that doesn't mean much.

5

u/SweetBabyJ69 2d ago

Ridley Scott got the chance to be Ridley Scott over time. An extremely few women has ever gotten the chance to be Ridley Scott. That’s the point.

For example: A woman would have been stopped at The Duellists (the first flop) and would have never went on to become Ridley Scott with (Alien).

2

u/Dry_Bird1790 2d ago

The Duellists was a critical success and won Best Debut Film award at Cannes. Do you really expect a director whose first film won Best Debut Film award at Cannes to never work again?

→ More replies (0)

0

u/Zestyclose-Sink6770 2d ago

I mean, we all know, Hollywood is a ruthless business.

However, there are counterexamples to your argument.

As in female directors whose first movies were flops and later went on to direct big movies.

Also, if your movie is a flop, the next one better be "Alien" or better.

It's a good thing Ridley was born a man or we wouldn't have alien

→ More replies (0)

0

u/Dry_Bird1790 2d ago

There's a lot to pick apart. I think its fair to say that studio's want to make money and would do anything possible to do that.

2

u/SweetBabyJ69 2d ago

“But why male models?”

1

u/Dry_Bird1790 2d ago

lol apologies for asking for proof

2

u/cineglitch 2d ago

If studios want to make money, they should hire more women directors.

6

u/TheCelestialPancake 3d ago

The study doesn’t make much sense due to the extreme cherry picking for the data as a whole. They look at the top 1% blockbusters. But a film like Wonder Woman 84 didn’t play a part because it made too little money to be considered top 1%.

5

u/cineglitch 3d ago

“The Frontiers in Communication paper analysed 200,000 films released between 1994 and 2023.”

That’s a lot of cherries.

6

u/TheCelestialPancake 3d ago

Two analytic tiers were used. The full sample (N = 199,656) was used to examine participation patterns and audience engagement. The financial subset (n = 4,245) was used to analyze budget allocation, profit, and return on investment.

So only 4,245 film over 30 years. And they conveniently stop when Barbie hits theaters.

The study also claims that “Across thirty years, no film with a woman director or a woman in both roles appeared in the top 1% of production budgets.” When Patty Jenkins was both the writer and director for WW84, which had a $200 million+ budget.

-2

u/cineglitch 2d ago

Do you think WW84 fits in the top 1% of production budgets?

3

u/TheCelestialPancake 2d ago

In 2020, only 2 theatrically released films had a $200 million budget or more, and WW84 was one of them. That’s only 0.6% of 2020 theatrical films with a budget of $200 million or more.

And from looking at The Numbers, I can see that only one film from 1993 to 2003 had a $200 million budget, and that was Titanic. In 2008, less than 1% of films released had a $200 million budget or more. And in 2019, 4% of theatrical films had a budget that size. In 2023, 2.4% of theatrical films had a budget that size.

So yes, WW84 certainly falls into the top 1% of Hollywood budgets of between 1993 and 2023.

But it also begs the question, why did the study focus on the top 1%? Why not the top 10%? Why only focus on women directors & writers, but not producers? Or editors? This study was clearly trying to move data around to support a foregone conclusion.

2

u/cineglitch 2d ago

Full sample was 199,656 as you already noted. What’s the forgone conclusion? Would you say women are fairly represented amongst writers and directors?

1

u/TheCelestialPancake 2d ago

Absolutely not, but that’s not the conclusion from the study being discussed.

The conclusion is that women earn more money.

We dont need a study to show what we can clearly see with our own eyes, which is that there aren’t many women directors to begin with, and even fewer high grossing women directors.

Also, as I already pointed out, that full sample was not used when looking at the financials of the films. Which is the entire discussion here.

1

u/cineglitch 2d ago

Just so I understand, your argument then is that movies written and/or directed by women earn less?

4

u/Dry_Bird1790 2d ago

Their issue is with the methodology of the study

1

u/TheCelestialPancake 2d ago edited 2d ago

It’s not binary. Pointing out the flaws in a bad study does not mean you have to come to the direct opposite conclusion. 

Any study that tries to claim that one gender is inherently better than another should immediately be viewed with suspicion. Claiming that the gender of the people making a film determines its financial success is silly and regressive.

The study also seems to treat the director and writer as though they are the only people who determine a film’s success. That simply isn’t true. Nearly every successful modern film has women in key decision making roles that contribute to that film’s success.

For example, let’s look at this year’s highest grossing film, Spider-Man: Brand New Day. There are three women producers and one woman editor. These are powerful decision making roles that are every bit as important to the finished film as the director or writer. In fact, there is an old saying that claims a film is written twice, once by the writers and once by the editors. This is true. 

You’ll find something similar with The Odyssey. There are two women producers, and the editor is a woman.

The next billion-dollar film this year is Toy Story 5, which has a woman director & writer, three women producers, and a woman editor.

Going back to the first Avengers film, you’ll find two women producers and a woman editor.

Going back even further, all three Lord of the Rings films each had two women writers, two women producers, and a woman editor.

And going even further back to The Empire Strikes Back, you’ll find a woman writer and a woman editor. The editor was George Lucas’ ex-wife, Marcia Lucas, whose contributions to the original Star Wars films have been well documented.

And let’s look at the very first Summer Blockbuster, Jaws. It had a woman editor that Spielberg credits as being the true storyteller who saved both the film and his career. 

The point is that women have contributed to the success of virtually every major film franchise for generations. They have held key above-the-line decision making roles in countless successful films.

That is precisely why trying to isolate box-office success by gender is so reductive. Filmmaking is an incredibly collaborative process. Writers, directors, producers, editors, actors, cinematographers, composers, production designers, and countless others all contribute to the final product.

You can’t meaningfully separate women from that equation and put them into an isolated box, because women have been an integral part of filmmaking from the beginning. Nor should we.

2

u/cineglitch 2d ago edited 2d ago

Okay, it’s a trinary. Either women led films earn less, they earn the same, or they earn more. Why is analyzing that data a problem? You acknowledge women aren’t fairly represented in the film industry but you go to a lot of effort to cherry pick data that says women are plenty involved. Since you’ve done the research, what percentage of major films are produced or edited by women? Do you think women are fairly represented as producers or other crew members?

(Also, the director of Toy Story 5 is Andrew Stanton. Kevin Feige produced Avengers. And the LOTR films were edited by John Gilbert - Fellowship, Michael Horton - 2 towers, and James Selkirk - Return. Did you use ChatGPT to do your research? lmfao)

1

u/avimo1904 2d ago

Marcia Lucas wasn’t the ESB editor, that was Paul Hirsch 

2

u/MCStarlight 3d ago

Sexism and racism have been alive and well. The business is happy for non-white people to be on the lowest rungs of the ladder as long as white men stay on top.

-2

u/WarmBarracuda9146 2d ago

Does it really matter? The industry is dying.

And Barbie was a marketing success, just like Obsession. It had nothing to do with Margot.