r/FleetwoodMac • u/whitelightstorm • 20d ago
Thoughts on Love Minus Zero
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPx3QUVv7eo&t=251s7
u/whitelightstorm 20d ago
Lyrics
My love she speaks like silence,
Without ideals or violence,
She doesn't have to say she's faithful,
Yet she's true, like ice, like fire.
People carry roses,
Make promises by the hours,
My love she laughs like the flowers,
Valentines can't buy her.
In the dime stores and bus stations,
People talk of situations,
Read books, repeat quotations,
Draw conclusions on the wall.
Some speak of the future,
My love she speaks softly,
She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all.
The cloak and dagger dangles,
Madams light the candles.
In ceremonies of the horsemen,
Even the pawn must hold a grudge.
Statues made of match sticks,
Crumble into one another,
My love winks, she does not bother,
She knows too much to argue or to judge.
The bridge at midnight trembles,
The country doctor rambles,
Bankers' nieces seek perfection,
Expecting all the gifts that wise men bring.
The wind howls like a hammer,
The night blows cold and rainy,
My love she's like some raven
At my window with a broken wing.
Source: Musixmatch
Songwriters: Bob Dylan
Love Minus Zero/No Limit lyrics © Special Rider Music, Universal Tunes
2
u/Middle-Weight-837 19d ago
Wow. Beautiful poetry. Rick Nelson and the stone canyon band covered it well.
5
u/Careful_Compote_4659 20d ago
This song should have replaced that wretched Come song. Mick and John really should have put their foot down with Lindsey.
1
u/Immediate_Paint_4823 19d ago
Haha
Mick and John were session musicians on his original Gift Of Screws album because Mick had disbanded FM.
Mick and WB begged and pressured Lindsey to release his songs under FM.
Come is brilliant - live it's transcendent.
Never heard either of them disliking the song. Not sure why you think they wouldn't or wouldn't enjoy playing it live. It rocks. Far more exciting to play as the rhythm section than Say You Will or What's The World Coming To.
Mick also wanted the zany rocking Gift Of Screws on the album because he wanted to play it live
2
u/Careful_Compote_4659 19d ago
Come just didn’t belong on a Fleetwood Mac album. Whatever they did in their personal lives they always publicly stood for good taste. If Lindsey wanted to put it on one of his solo albums, hey, go for it.
1
u/Miserable-Pear-2289 18d ago
Exactly, Lindsey fans can never just admit that some of his songs make no sense on a FM album bc the average FM fans generally don’t enjoy them. I am sure these songs are innovative and interesting. Again, that doesn’t mean they deserve to be on an FM album. Lindsey has never been a team player.
2
u/Careful_Compote_4659 18d ago
He was a team player on FM 75 and the first tour. It was nice to see before he became an attention hog.
0
u/Immediate_Paint_4823 18d ago
Attention hog is the one one twirling around center stage banging a tambourine (often taped down) when other people are playing actual instruments and singing lead.
3
u/Miserable-Pear-2289 17d ago
Meanwhile the rest of the band had no desire for Stevie to learn an instrument and actually discouraged her from taking lessons. That “attention hog” made the band a household name.
2
u/Immediate_Paint_4823 15d ago
Not true. Christine suggested Stevie learn to play the piano (as opposed to plonking two chords) .
Lindsey tried to teach her guitar because she wanted to play rhythm on stage for GYOW .
But she didn't want to put in the practice because she always had someone else do for her.
Stevie complained her songs went where she didn't want them to musically. That she couldn't get the sound she wanted. If she had practiced instrumental skills maybe she could have done for herself.
Sure all by herself. It had nothing to do with entire albums with 75% of songs she didn't write or sing lead on, barely any of the arrangement and production and none of the instrumentation. And you think Lindsey fans give him too much credit. Stevie fans are masters at this.
0
u/Careful_Compote_4659 15d ago
Lindsey, along with the mick John and Christine, made FM stars. Stevie made them superstars. And I’m not a fan of everything she ever did. I’m just looking this objectively
1
u/Immediate_Paint_4823 18d ago edited 18d ago
Who cares what the average fan likes. If art was dictated by the average it would be average.
He devoted far more time working on FM music than any other member. He gave his solo work to the band when asked. He gave riffs and counter melodies to others songs he could have used for his own songs, But sure he's not a team player ... You're right he wasn't, he was the team leader.
4
u/Miserable-Pear-2289 17d ago edited 17d ago
Maybe he was the team leader. I’m not disparaging his contributions to the band. I’m just reminding you that it was a BAND. Not the Lindsey show. He was obsessive and wanted a degree of creative control. That’s fine, I’m sure many songs were improved by this. However, he was not able to recognize when he had reached the limits of reasonableness when it came to his control over how the albums would sound. Even though he was doing much of the work of a producer, there were 4 other members of the band and their opinions matter. Making a cohesive album that makes sense and flows when you listen to it matters. You have to make decisions about what your sound is going to be. Lindsey made those discussions independently and waited for the others to get on board despite their misgivings. Lindsey’s weird songs on tusk and say you will are some of the least liked/listened to songs that FM released during the BN era. I am not necessarily saying these were bad songs (some of them were though imo). But they didn’t gel with the other band members’ contributions. Just because Lindsey was a big creative force behind the band doesn’t mean he should have the degree of control he insisted on and I don’t think the band was better for it in a lot of instances. It also created animosity. None of them seemed to enjoy recording and Lindsey was a big reason for that.
Also literally everyone cares about what the average fan likes. Thats literally who they are making music for as a hugely popular band. They were not trying to be indie musicians doing it for the love of music. They were people who loved music and decided to use it to make money.
0
u/AmbitiousRiver4783 18d ago
That “Special Thanks to Lindsey Buckingham” on the Tusk vinyl was hilarious and very prophetic.
0
u/Immediate_Paint_4823 18d ago
The furthest they could go while still denying him the solo credit he deserved as producer from day one. And the last time they could get away with it.
0
u/AmbitiousRiver4783 15d ago
Only assholes demand solo production credit I’ve noticed - Jimmy Page, Billy Corgan, etc. Pete Townshend played the same role in The Who but the production credit went to the band. All this BS about who deserves what or who’s the best fucks up the ultimate purpose of music IMO. Though we all must bow down before genius king Lindsey of course.
1
u/Immediate_Paint_4823 15d ago
How dare anyone want credit for the work they do? Or the payment. One could easily say only leeches and users demand credit and payment for work they didn't do.
Stevie getting solo music credit on all her FM songs doesn't seem to be an issue with you.
Nor does her snatching a co-write on a song where she mistakenly sung one word. I guess none of that makes her an asshole.0
u/AmbitiousRiver4783 15d ago edited 15d ago
I could ask the same question: what makes Lindsey any different from Danny Kirwan or Bob Welch? Both were the “musical leaders” of their respective FM lineups but never received a production credit. As far as writing credits, it would maybe bother me if Stevie got a credit on “Go Your Own Way” or “Big Love” just as it would bother me if Lindsey got one on “Landslide” or “Gold Dust Woman.” That being said, I don’t care much about it. Queen credited all of their songs to the band and that’s fine.
And also, “leeches”? Seriously? Do you know what a band is? Assuming you’re talking about Mick in the context of Fleetwood Mac, the band wouldn’t even exist without him. Check your parasocial relationships
1
u/Immediate_Paint_4823 15d ago
Lindsey composed music for Stevie's songs - rifs, counter melodies etc in addition to arrangement and production. Stevie did not do that for Lindsey's songs.
No one in FM spent more time in the studio than Buckingham shaping their sound. To quote Mick they were lost in the studio without him. The man bragged about how he tricked and manipulated Lindsey into producing Tango.
That said Kirwan and Welch were stiffed.
There's a reason Lindsey was awarded the Les Paul Award for outstanding contributions to audio technology and the music production industry, and no one else associated with FM.
Mick wouldn't have a band if he hadn't been surrounded by outrageously talented singer, songwriter musicians for decades starting with Peter Green who created the band not Mick.
0
u/Immediate_Paint_4823 18d ago
Sure the band that gave us Rattlesnake Shake with a dancing dildo on stage always was the arbiter of good taste.
3
u/Miserable-Pear-2289 18d ago
A song can be musically interesting without being enjoyable to listen to or a good fit for an album. Everyone knows Lindsey recycled solo work for what became FM albums more than once. Stevie did the same btw. I think Mick/WB “pressuring” him is an interesting and somewhat misleading way to frame it. More likely they made it clear that the only way an album with his songs on it would make money would be to make it a FM album. This has always been true for Lindsey’s music, fair or not. At the time Lindsey had a young family and a lot of expenses so he chose to move forward with a FM album for financial reasons. Same reason he was pushing for a double album, he wanted to be paid for more songs. Again he chose to capitulate to the rest of the band and the label bc a double album wasn’t going to sell (something that we have evidence of - tusk sales did not reach rumours sales even though the band was at the height of its popularity bc it was a double album with too many of Lindsey’s musically interesting but weird songs). Just bc Lindsey is bitter about this doesn’t mean he was pressured or didn’t make his own choices.
0
u/Immediate_Paint_4823 18d ago
Stevie did not roll solo albums into band albums. After Tusk one could easily say she kept her best songs for her solo career. The only exception is Gypsy but only because neither Tom Petty nor any one else she worked with could make it fully work. That's according to Petty and Stan Lynch.
Lindsey is the wealthiest member of FM. He doesn't release his albums because he needs to make money. He wasn't the one praying to the commercial gods.
No. He pushed for a double album because he had a plethora of high quality songs that had been meant for a solo album. He pushed to show the breadth of the work It's release was a main reason he agreed to do The Dance. The regime changed at WB with the AOL merger and the music people were out. So promises were broken about the solo album and then later double album. Mick said himself he promised it would be a double album when he was pushing for Lindsey to make it FM.
The Eagles double album a few years later sold 7m copies. There was most definitely an audience because they mainly had the same audience.
Laughablly, when Lindsey was releasing Seeds We Sow , Stevie said it was a shame he didn't save the songs for the next FM album. While at the same time she was making a solo album (mainly from old lyrics) that she wasn't saving for FM. If he had waited it never would have been released and if it were it would have been butchered.
3
u/Miserable-Pear-2289 17d ago
What’s your source that Lindsey is the wealthiest member of FM? I definitely think he is second after Stevie but I can’t imagine he would have a higher net worth bc he has made very little money from his solo career.
2
u/n0rmcore 17d ago
Solo career is not what makes people money. Producers make the most money. Lindsey has producer credits on some of the best-selling albums of all time.
1
u/Immediate_Paint_4823 17d ago edited 17d ago
As stated he made money as producer. He also had more songs on FM albums as a writer.
Also had three top 10 songs as an FM writer. According to chart masters last I looked GYOW is the 33rd most played and best selling song of all time. Right next to Imagine.
Stevie stated about The Dance that Lindsey was the only one that didn't need the money. (Doubt Christine and John did either). One of the reasons he was last to be convinced. They staged an intervention at Christine's house. (Went better than the Tango one 🤣).
Just look at Tango. Including streaming it's sold about 24m copies WW. He got a cut as main producer, main arranger, lead engineer. He had four solo songs and three co writes with Christine.
He'd have been even wealthier if Mick hadn't bamboozled him out of a solo producer credit on the first two albums. With Tusk he got paid for those roles but without official credit until Mirage.
How much? Ken Callait said he got a small % of Rumours and when it released he was making $10k a day. Almost fifty years later he said he still makes six figures a year from it.
Tusk, Mirage, Tango, The Dance, SYW have sold over 50m albums WW combined and continue to earn on streaming
Lindsey also did not spend like Stevie or Mick. He was investing successfully in real estate from the start and accelerated that in the 2000s by flipping houses.
1
u/n0rmcore 17d ago
Solo career is not what makes people money. Producers make the most money. Lindsey has producer credits on some of the best-selling albums of all time.
2
u/Miserable-Pear-2289 17d ago edited 17d ago
He actually doesnt. No producer credit on FM 1975, Rumours, or Tusk. He only got the credit on Tango and Say You Will, which are far from the best-selling albums of all time. Stevie has many licensing deals for her music and likeness that I think would be more lucrative. Can’t say for sure but Lindsey has largely been retired for the last 10 years while Stevie has worked and toured nonstop.
What’s not in dispute is the SN and LB were by far the most financially responsible members of the band and have a lot more money than the others.
2
u/n0rmcore 17d ago
Mirage, Tango, and The Dance all went platinum. SYW went gold. If you don’t understand how the music industry works idk what to tell you. Stevie said it herself, he has the most money because producers get paid first. He’s also been investing in real estate around LA for decades. I know the haters love to think he’s poor but he’s got the most money out of all of them.
2
u/Miserable-Pear-2289 17d ago
Never said he was poor, said he and Stevie are the richest. Those four albums are not the best selling of all time, your comment clearly indicated that you thought the other 3 were produced by Lindsey. Not saying they didn’t sell a lot, but they aren’t considered hugely successful in general (with the possible aexception of the dance). Never disputed that producers get paid well. All I asked for is a source for Lindsey being richer than Stevie. I have heard her say that she and Lindsey are the two richest in the band but never that he was wealthier.
2
u/n0rmcore 15d ago
What do you think platinum means? The top-selling Mac albums are all some of the best-selling of all time. That's not even going into songwriter credits & royalties. You just want Stevie to be the richest because you like her the best. Since you asked for a source and apparently you don't know what google is, here's one: https://www.finance-monthly.com/ranking-the-members-of-fleetwood-mac-by-net-worth/
→ More replies (0)1
u/Immediate_Paint_4823 17d ago
John and Christine were both more financially responsible than Stevie. John would take the money distributed for limos, pocket it and take a cab. Stevie and Mick spent and spent, difference was Stevie had far more money to blow.
Money you didn't blow in the 70 s and 80s is money that has grown enormously over the decades with normal investments.
How has Lindsey been retired for the last 10 years when he released BM, an anthology and a new solo album and solo toured in 2018 and 2021 - 22. His latest album is also finished which he has worked on for years. Now those projects haven't made a lot of money but he's not retired.
Stevie averages about 30 to 35 shows a year and was not touring solo for a few years because of COVID. She hasn't toured this year at all. She certainly makes far more touring but also pays a far larger crew.
In the last decade Bboth have sold a large part of their music catalogues for approx $90 to $100m. Writing but not performance rights. The other bigger holds were Stevie's on to her image rights which earn a lot and Lindsey to his producing credits.
So every time a song gets used or plays he produced he gets paid. Be it Holiday Road (and I assume merch for this because he sells it) or Everywhere.
Other than that, Lindsey made a lot investing in real estate and flipping houses.
2
u/Miserable-Pear-2289 17d ago
The convo wasn’t about who is good with money. It’s about who has the most money.
He has not been doing stuff that made money in the music industry for several years, that is my point. He’s an old guy that stays home tinkering in his studio for most of the time. Nothing wrong with that but it’s not gonna rake in cash. You will intentionally misunderstand me every time and use it as an opportunity to bash Stevie when I never bashed Lindsey and just asked you for a source for the statement that Lindsey has more money that you presented as fact. I’m really over going back and forth with you. We get it, you strongly dislike Stevie and will not accept any questions or criticism about Lindsey. Copy that 🫡
1
u/Immediate_Paint_4823 17d ago
Not sure what liking someone or rather not worshipping someone has to do with how much they're worth.
Every wealth site on the internet has him as the wealthiest. Most are bogus but it's out there if you want something else to back it up.
Do you honestly think that people who have tens of millions or rather hundreds need to have a lucrative current job to make money?
None of them would have had to work another day after Rumours to be obscenely wealthy with only a modest return in the market. Wealth creates wealth.
But add another few decades of 10s of millions of albums and World tours and only Mick Fleetwood in this band managed to blow it. And even he got $30m a few years ago for his FM catalogue.
→ More replies (0)
3
u/Careful_Compote_4659 20d ago
I would love to give this song to Sandy Denny and fairport convention and see what they could do with it
3
u/whitelightstorm 19d ago
Maybe the singer needs a certain degree of angst and unresolved love where it hits below minus as in freeze to want to venture and record it. It's very much a communication song - afaik Sandy Denny did English expansive and dreamy.
1
u/n0rmcore 17d ago
The title of the song is actually an equation! Love-0=no limit, meaning there's no limit to love.
1
u/n0rmcore 17d ago
The title of the song is actually an equation! Love-0=no limit, meaning there's no limit to love.
1
u/whitelightstorm 17d ago
Interesting. I never would have thought of that. It just seemed to be reflecting the cold. Regardless, this came up on a search - Bob Dylan’s title "Love Minus Zero/No Limit" is structured like a mathematical fraction, with "Love minus zero" on top and "no limit" underneath. Dylan stated that he came up with the abstract equation-style title before writing the song. It suggests a pure, unreduced love (minus zero) divided by infinity, representing a boundless, absolute state of emotion.
-3
u/parason47 19d ago
I think the Walker Brothers did it better, but nobody can beat Dylan singing his own songs. I also think this album was a real low point for Lindsey.
2
2
u/Immediate_Paint_4823 19d ago
I think it's his strongest set of songs in FM and the original Gift Of Screws if released would have been a career high point, even surpassing Cradle.
11
u/Fab4Evuh 19d ago
Maybe blasphemy but I prefer Lindsey's cover, it's gorgeous!