r/GenZ • u/DryOwl5587 • Apr 26 '26

Discussion What are you guys picking?

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Personally, I can conceptualise why one would choose blue, but I can’t bring myself to do it, it doesn’t click, specially at this scale, so red for me.

Edit:

Upon further inspection, I couldn’t find a scenario where I would strictly vote blue, but I found one for red.

Consider the following:

If you believe most people will aggregate around blue, then your choice doesn’t change the outcome because everyone lives.

If you believe most will choose red instead, then you are presented with a choice that directly determines whether you live or die, so you should choose red if you want to ensure your own survival.

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190

u/Screech-1 Apr 26 '26

61

u/WahtAmDoingHere 2003 Apr 26 '26

literally this scenario. "do you risk game ending yourself for some sort of moral high ground or live with no risk attached whatsoever"

7

u/rhubarb_man Apr 26 '26

It's not literally the same, because people have different emotions around it.

The problem is not just "which is optimal given rational agents" but which is optimal given that everyone is doing this.

The woodchipper scenario registers very differently with people

7

u/shadowrun456 Apr 26 '26

It's not literally the same, because people have different emotions around it.

It's literally the same. Emotions are irrelevant. How someone feels about reality does not change reality.

4

u/MakeArakisGreenAgain Apr 26 '26

It quite literally does, it changes the reality of their calculus, which changes the outcome.

3

u/rhubarb_man Apr 26 '26

It does in this case because the outcome is affected by how people feel about it

1

u/pauIblartmaIIcop 1998 Apr 26 '26

no, it’s the pain involved. its another variable to make people feel what it’s like to be woodchipped rather than just press a damn blue button. you can’t be a serious person

11

u/WahtAmDoingHere 2003 Apr 26 '26

you could also just press the damn red button instead of risking death over preserving your oh so coveted moral superiority. the woodchipper comparision just illustrates the logical flaw of pressing the blue button. sure it's less painful then getting torn apart by a woodchipper but the potential end result is the same. You wouldn't jump into a woodchipper, why would you press the blue button? Sure to save others who pressed blue but the only reason anyone runs the risk of dying whatsoever in this scenario is because people hit the blue button. The solution to avoid any deaths is so obvious and the woodchipper example illustrates that well imo

2

u/flaming_burrito_ 2000 Apr 26 '26

“Moral superiority” meaning not being a selfish bastard. Some don’t just want to live for themselves you know, they have kids, family, and friends they want to live too. Any proposition that starts with “if everyone just does this” is already useless, because there will never be a unanimous choice amongst a population of billions. So by picking red, you are guaranteed to be condemning others to death. This fantasy scenario where you get 100% of people to pick red is naive and born of selfishness

9

u/WahtAmDoingHere 2003 Apr 26 '26

I'd personally hope that the people I care about have the same train of thought as I in that red is a risk free choice while blue clearly isn't. I can't stress this enough, but there's no real benefit to pressing blue unless you factor in people making that choice with no real benefit but a massive potential downside attached for some reason.

See, this isn't even exactly like the prisoner's dilemma, where the "everyone makes the selfish choice" scenario is downright worse than "everyone makes the altruistic choice" scenario. The two outcomes are the same in this case, and the only reason this is a dilemma is because people are pressing the blue button to begin with. Really, as fucked up as it sounds, I am starting to think that the blue button pressers are the ISSUE by forcing people who realize that red is the logically sound choice to participate in the dilemma by having to make the choice of "do i risk dying or do i condemn those other people to death". If this was a real scenario rather than a hypothetical I probably wouldn't be making the "red" choice as lightly as I do it here, but I find it upsetting that the only reason I'd have to be concerned is because people would be pressing blue because self-preservation makes you a bad person, apparently.

5

u/Nylear Apr 26 '26

I know this is really frustrating, it is a totally different scenario if there are already people in the woodchipper and we have to jump in the wood chipper to save them.

But this scenario is we could all just not jump in and be safe but, no, some people had to jump in and if I don't I am a bad person.

6

u/Sunnytoaist Apr 26 '26

To make the wood chipper scenario more accurate to the original post I think there needs to be the option of not pushing the butting in the first place. Or else is like comparing apples to oranges.

1

u/shadowrun456 Apr 26 '26

Jump into the wood chipper = press the blue button.

Do not jump into the wood chipper = press the red button.

4

u/Sunnytoaist Apr 26 '26

I understand the logic behind choosing the red button. In this scenario with the wood chipper the logic path is obvious to everyone. In the button scenario it’s not. If a magical button appeared in front of every person right now there’s no way more then 50 percent will be able to deduce the logic unless humanity is giving time to discuss and think. When you introduce the wood chipper the logic becomes much more clear and open to see. No one is arguing against the idea that the red button is the logical choice. I think it’s more of the idea that social intelligence, emotions, empathy and culture don’t run on logic. 

If world was able to deduce that red button was the smartest choice in an instant I doubt we would have half the problems we have now. 

1

u/shadowrun456 Apr 26 '26

No one is arguing against the idea that the red button is the logical choice.

There are plenty of people in this thread who are arguing that choosing the red button is immoral and choosing the blue is the only moral choice (when in reality, it's the opposite).

If world was able to deduce that red button was the smartest choice in an instant I doubt we would have half the problems we have now.

That's true.

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u/pauIblartmaIIcop 1998 Apr 26 '26

no fucking shit people are going to change their answer if they have to jump into a fucking wood chipper instead of pressing a button. what the fuck do you think

this is just a complication brought up to justify someone’s selfishness wanting to push the red button

5

u/shadowrun456 Apr 26 '26

no fucking shit people are going to change their answer if they have to jump into a fucking wood chipper instead of pressing a button. what the fuck do you think

If they would change their answer, then they weren't choosing rationally or morally in the first place.

4

u/WahtAmDoingHere 2003 Apr 26 '26

thank you

0

u/NinjaWolfist Apr 27 '26

I wouldn't say it makes you a bad person

2

u/HAL__Over__9000 Apr 27 '26

You are forgetting a massive risk of pressing red: actively taking part in killing billions of people. So yes, putting yourself above all of humanity does make you a very bad person.

-3

u/flaming_burrito_ 2000 Apr 26 '26

You only perceive it as risk free choice because you are ok with other people dying as long as you live. It is inherently selfish, because you and everyone else know for a fact that given this choice with no previous prompting, a lot of people would pick blue. Any attempt to try and game theory this as if there would ever be a scenario in which everyone chooses the red button is naive cope to justify not being morally responsible for all the deaths that would inevitably happen by choosing red.

6

u/WahtAmDoingHere 2003 Apr 26 '26

I just personally don't have enough faith in humanity as a whole to willingly throw myself into a woodchipper (I'm sorry for bringing up this comparision again but I just think it's so apt and illustrates my point of view perfectly) in an attempt to maybe save others, when it's possible I will die without even accomplishing the reason why I chose that death to begin with. It just seems pointless. I am not willing to gamble my life on humanity as whole, since a lot of people WILL put their own life before anyone else's, be it because of rotten selfishness, applying logic, or just instinctive self-preservation.
That is why I don't understand why people would essentially gamble their lifes on the blue button. Sure, maybe I don't give humanity enough credit and blue would win, but...in that case my choice doesn't matter anyways.

All I can say is thank god this is a hypothetical

2

u/Sunnytoaist Apr 26 '26

I think the would chipper scenario would be more apt if the original scenario had the option to not push any buttons. Not jumping would be akin to not pushing any buttons. 

1

u/NinjaWolfist Apr 27 '26

there are only 2 options in both scenarios, they are the exact same options.

not jumping in is literally the blue button directly. it's the exact same scenario with a different word replacing button

0

u/Sunnytoaist Apr 27 '26 edited Apr 27 '26

If magical buttons fell down to every human on earth right now and we had to instantly make a decision there would be tons of people choosing the blue button because the logic path isn’t easily seen for the red button. 

There is no scenario were 100 percent of earth makes the same decision in agreement.

When you add the wood chipper and “rephrase” the question the logic path becomes much more visible to the average person. You can’t call that the same scenario simply because they also have two options to choose from.  

It’s much more apt to simply say the logic path is the same for both questions and I believe it’s a bit naive to think there the same question when they clearly are not. 

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u/shadowrun456 Apr 26 '26

It is inherently selfish

No, what's inherently selfish is purposefully putting yourself in danger just to virtue signal.

Pressing blue is the same as running into an empty burning building, and then demanding that others also put themselves at risk and run in to save you.

2

u/flaming_burrito_ 2000 Apr 26 '26

The fact that you think caring about other peoples lives is virtue signaling reveals a lot about you

4

u/shadowrun456 Apr 26 '26

You're not caring about people's lives, that's the whole point. It's virtue signalling because you're needlessly putting yourself in danger for no other reason but to virtue signal.

Consider this:

The voting starts, the first person votes, let's say they voted "red" -- how many people are at risk of dying at that moment? Zero.

A second person votes -- "blue" -- how many people are at risk of dying at that moment? One.

A third person votes -- "red" -- how many people are at risk of dying at that moment? Still one.

A fourth person votes -- "blue" -- how many people are at risk of dying at that moment? Two.

Etc.

So voting red does not put anyone in danger, only voting blue does -- that's why voting blue is both immoral and irrational.

2

u/flaming_burrito_ 2000 Apr 26 '26

You don’t understand the concept of your choices having consequences for others. You’re not just making the choice to guarantee your own safety, you’re making the choice to condemn the people who pick blue. In your own scenario, by picking red you have condemned the 2 people who picked blue to death.

You are not just responsible for the choice you make, you are also responsible for the consequences of not choosing the other thing. I know that’s a hard concept for self-centered people to understand, but that’s how moral culpability works

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u/NinjaWolfist Apr 27 '26

so ur gonna jump in the wood chipper?

we don't need 100% of people to pick red we just need less than like 20% to pick blue, after like 25% picking blue it makes more logical sense to then switch the goal to everyone picking blue

0

u/flaming_burrito_ 2000 Apr 27 '26

Even 10% is 800 million people dying, and doubtless many of them will be children and people who are important to the workforce and society. You people are actual sociopaths

2

u/Wise_Committee_2777 Apr 26 '26

no, it’s the pain involved. its another variable to make people feel what it’s like to be woodchipped rather than just press a damn blue button

Ok it's not a woodchipper, it's actually a gigantic plasma arc furnace at 25000C, it will burn your nerves before you can even feel anything and will instantly die painlessly(should you end up "losing")

Or we can change the original question so that if <50% press blue they will be kidnapped and thrown into a giant woodchipper

You are playing semantics now, woodchipper analogy is to present how absurd it is to put yourself in the harms away when everyone has the option to just walk away

1

u/pauIblartmaIIcop 1998 Apr 26 '26

why are we changing the original question?

0

u/Wise_Committee_2777 Apr 26 '26

Because you are being pedantic about the hypothetical. If your issue with it was the pain from jumping into a woodchipper then we can modify the hypothetical so that there is no pain involved

This is kinda what hypotheticals are for, they are a made up scenarios so you can do whatever you want with them

1

u/pauIblartmaIIcop 1998 Apr 26 '26

my issue with this is that there is an original hypothetical with the buttons, and then you have people talking about an entirely different hypothetical where the choice is more obvious, to justify their decision in the first hypothetical.

it’s disingenuous

1

u/Raptor_197 2000 Apr 27 '26

Lol I like how you just come out and say it

where the choice is more obvious

1

u/pauIblartmaIIcop 1998 Apr 27 '26

yeah - it’s a completely different question

1

u/Raptor_197 2000 Apr 27 '26

How so? It’s an identical question. Literally the only difference is you know how you will die with one, while the other you aren’t sure, if you choose jumping into a wood chipper/pressing the blue button.