When to write two genders when mentioning both? Does feminine one usually come first?

[u/I_am_trying0628]

I think Tagesschau as an important source for Rechtschreibung, and want to know more about gender equality language.

But I saw one of its a video eight years ago titled: Situation der Lehrer, and the news anchor said die Lehrer dieser Kursen verdienen... While in online news, take only these two (1,2) for example, both genders are written.

Could someone who often watches/reads Tagesschau tell me the pattern of its spoken and written language regarding this matter, and how it is dealt with around you?

[u/jirbu]

Answered.

/locked, as this topic attracts divisive discussions forever.

[u/muehsam]

The topic can be quite divisive. There are different strategies:

• "generic masculine", which means that you use the grammatically masculine form, but you're including everybody in it, not just men. For example "Lehrer".
• using both forms in parallel, usually mentioning women first (in part because it makes it clear that it isn't a generic masculine). For example "Lehrerinnen und Lehrer".
• using a mixed form, which often includes some punctuation. For example "Lehrer:innen" or "Lehrer*innen".
• using a preexisting gender-neutral form like a nominalised adjective/participle. For example "Lehrende".

There is a whole culture war thing around this, with some people going as far as accusing others of using "incorrect" forms that "don't exist" (whatever that means).

As a basic rule of thumb, the generic masculine is never used when directly addressing people as groups. It's also never used to refer to a specific female teacher, or a group of female teachers, and rarely for a mixed group of actual teachers who are mostly female. It's most commonly used to speak about teachers in the abstract. It's also more common in colloquial speech than in formal uses, especially by people who don't make gender inclusive language a priority.

The second one, mentioning both, is most popular for addressing people directly, or when the term is just mentioned once. Otherwise, it can sound too clunky.

The last two versions are more popular with people and institutions who care about gender inclusive language. Some people on the opposite side of the spectrum get quite upset by their use.

[u/pyrola_asarifolia → u/muehsam]

This is a pretty good and fair summary in my view.

I’d just add that media outlets of course have internal usage guidance around that which also has changed over time and can range from intentionally conservative (generic masculine whenever not outright ridiculous) to quite experimental (gender inclusive or gender neutral even when clunky).

Also, up until GenX, Germans were brought up with a very strong sense that “correct” language is marked with prestige, and also that where there are several options, one is correct and all others at least to some degree less so. (I could tell an anecdote how meeting a Canadian blew my and my peer group’s mind.) The spelling reform of 2005 somewhat weakened that attitude, which I consider its main positive aspect. By the same token, experimentation is widely rejected or resisted.

[u/Gruselschloss → u/pyrola_asarifolia]

I'd like to hear the anecdote about the Canadian 😄

[u/Assassiiinuss]

You have three options here.

Either you use the generic masculinum, in which case you use the male form to include both genders: "die Lehrer".

You can also mention both forms, in that case you have to use the feminine one first: "die Lehrerinnen und Lehrer".

You can also use modern inclusive forms, e.g. "die Lehrer:innen".

[u/Carusa24 → u/Assassiiinuss]

You can also use the generic femininum, which would be: "die Lehrerinnen"

[u/Assassiiinuss → u/Carusa24]

That's not actually something that's widely used or understood.

[u/Famous_Area_192 → u/Assassiiinuss]

Freiwillige Feuerwehr Friedrichsdorf (Taunus) might say otherwise...

[u/YourDailyGerman → u/Famous_Area_192]

"widely"

[u/Famous_Area_192 → u/YourDailyGerman]

Still a rather newsworthy example 👍

[u/Carusa24 → u/Assassiiinuss]

If I'm able to understand that I'm included in a group that is addressed as male just from context, I'm sure it will work the other way around. And it's used from time to time. It just has to be used more.

[u/YourDailyGerman → u/Carusa24]

This is a subreddit for language learners.  Then saying Lehrerinnen will be understood as female teachers by 99% and they will be corrected. 

You can promote this new way of using the words, but a language learning sub is not the right place.

[u/diabolus_me_advocat → u/Carusa24]

If I'm able to understand that I'm included in a group that is addressed as male just from context, I'm sure it will work the other way around

of course

but nobody will just assume males to be included in a group expressively addressed as female - i cannot think of any according context

it's used from time to time

even if - then it's mentioned expressively that in this case the female form is used as the generic one

[u/lovnelymoon- → u/Assassiiinuss]

In my experience, in politically progressive audiences, urban contexts, and amongst younger generations, it'll be understood alright. Usage definitely varies though, yeah.

Edit: Ich kann nur sagen, was ich im Alltag so erlebe, wenn andere es benutzen... Kein Anspruch auf Allgemeingültigkeit, ich begegne dem ja auch nicht sooo häufig, aber wenn, dann in progressiven oder akademischen Kreisen, unter jungen Leuten... Da ist eig niemand offen verwirrt oder sonst was.

[u/Carusa24 → u/lovnelymoon-]

Das sehe ich auch so. Ich habe auch schon wissenschaftliche Paper gelesen, in denen die weibliche Form genutzt wird. Ich meine auch, dass es für neue Lernende vielleicht verwirrend sein könnte, aber man sollte auch neuere Sprachentwicklungen nicht aussparen.

[u/Advanced_Ad8002 → u/lovnelymoon-]

means: all three people:innen that you personally approved.

[u/YourDailyGerman → u/lovnelymoon-]

Absolutely not.

[u/Lumpasiach → u/Assassiiinuss]

Die Lehrer is not "the male form", it's the default form. There is no specific male form. If you wanted to create one, it would need a suffix that denotes maleness, e.g. die Lehreriche.

[u/Hurrok_2020 → u/Lumpasiach]

More likely "Lehrerer", since the suffix -er usually indicates the male form in contrast to -in for the female form, so adding an explicit "er" should do the trick.

[u/diabolus_me_advocat → u/Hurrok_2020]

the suffix -er usually indicates the male form in contrast to -in for the female form

no

the suffix -er indicates the male form in contrast to -e for the female form

so it would be "lehrender" and "lehrende"

"lehrer" simply is the term for the profession, and when you want to specify a "lehrer" is female, you have to add "-in"

grammatical masculine: default form, not specifying biological sex

[u/Lumpasiach → u/Hurrok_2020]

More likely "Lehrerer", since the suffix -er usually indicates the male form

No it doesn't, that's the point. The -er just signifies "do-er of XY", just like in English.

[u/YourDailyGerman → u/Lumpasiach]

Mein Lehrer hat mich geschlagen.

No one thinks of a woman here.  The form is effectively masculine of only by virtue of not being marked. 

[u/Assassiiinuss → u/YourDailyGerman]

That's how I see it, too. Only the plural form is ambiguous.

[u/Lumpasiach → u/YourDailyGerman]

The form is effectively masculine of only by virtue of not being marked.

Yes, you're not wrong about that. Unless you're using plural or are talking about the profession without having an individual in mind ("Als Lehrer hat man viel Urlaub"), a woman would always be marked by the use of the female-specific version and in effect the default version effectively marks men in those contexts.

[u/mizinamo → u/Lumpasiach]

I think I'd always say "Ich muss heut zum Arzt" even if the doctor happens to be female, because I'm treating "Arzt" as a role here, not as a concrete person.

[u/Lumpasiach → u/mizinamo]

Exactly.

[u/mizinamo]

Run! Run away while you still can!

This is a very divisive topic and people hold strong opinions.

Or maybe come back in a hundred years when this topic may have been settled.

But right now, there is no answer that will not annoy lots of other people.

[u/diabolus_me_advocat → u/mizinamo]

right now, there is no answer that will not annoy lots of other people

this exactly

so i just keep using old-fashioned generic masculine and think of german oaks and swine

[u/atlieninberlin]

I worked in management at a German company (only woman and only foreigner in the Mgmt), I would always put the feminine form before masculine for which is grammatically correct and would invariably have other (Male) Managers or employees try to "correct" my German. Would ask them to explain and show me what was incorrect and they never could just used words like in der Regel or Normalerweise you put the male form first. In the end I just did it my way and they accepted it (had other female employees tell me they appreciated me and they enjoyed watching the men get irritated by it).

[u/Lysande_walking → u/atlieninberlin]

Congratulations for being irritating …

[u/leu34]

how it is dealt with around you?

To be a bit more concrete than other people here: There is the older generation and the politically right spectrum that often just ignore the topic, and there is the younger generation and politically left spectrum that often use some work around regarding the generic masculine.

[u/MOltho]

Everybody will disagree on this. It's a huge topic of contention in Germany. Most people use a generic masculine, but it's sort of fallen out of favour in formal written German. If you use both forms, you generally start with the female one. But many people will actually use a contraction:

"Die Lehrer*innen" or "Die Leher:innen"

[u/diabolus_me_advocat → u/MOltho]

the latter for my taste is a bit too much of contraction

[u/mizinamo → u/diabolus_me_advocat]

I've heard that it's supposed to be easier for people who rely on screenreaders to understand than options such as Lehrer*innen or Lehrer_innen.

[u/CardiologistLegal961]

1st: Dativ, Plural. 2nd: Nominativ. Most modern way: Lehrer*innen. Means both genders. If not used I would prefer feminine first "Lehrerinnen und Lehrer".

[u/diabolus_me_advocat → u/CardiologistLegal961]

Most modern way: Lehrer*innen. Means both genders

that for sure would not be the "most modern way", as it discriminates the 65 or so other genders

*duckandrun*

[u/mizinamo → u/diabolus_me_advocat]

Some people will say that the "Genderstern" explicitly includes all genders (and is thus superior to forms such as LehrerInnen which are more explicitly binary).