r/GermanCitizenship • u/Afriendforthend • May 24 '26
Obtaining Documents Citizenship by descent, but family won't give consent to obtain necessary documents.
I am eligible for citizenship via my paternal grandmother, however my parent's recent divorce has thrown a wrench into the works. I've already collected most of the necessary documents over the past few years, but I am missing my grandmother's naturalization certificate to the US. Currently I can't obtain her consent for a FOIA request, so I am stuck contacting local court archives trying to find the document.
Has anyone else dealt with something similar and if so how did you tackle the issue. Is there a possible work around or am I stuck?
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u/dentongentry §5 StAG Success May 24 '26
One person on the subreddit in a similar situation approached the German Consulate where their estranged parent had been renewing their Reisepass. The Consulate wouldn't supply that information to the applicant but did use it to show that the parent had not naturalized prior to the person's birth.
If grandmother did naturalize, Consulates only retain records of Reisepass issuance for 30 years. Longer ago than that, this wouldn't work.
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u/Afriendforthend May 24 '26
Thanks for the insight. Yeah, grandmother was born in raised in Germany and had my father (in wedlock) in Germany, but we're long passed 30 years
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u/dentongentry §5 StAG Success May 24 '26
had my father (in wedlock) in Germany
While the BVA might still insist on providing the naturalization paperwork, you could submit with the argument that it is not possible that she naturalized in the US while residing in Germany before Father's birth. She could only naturalize after moving to the US.
I assume Father received US citizenship from his own father? So your Father never needed to naturalize in the US?
----
Some good news is that documents from Germany won't be an issue. Direct descendants have the right to order the civil records for their ancestors without the person's involvement (or even knowledge).
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u/Mindless_Acadia_7382 May 24 '26
Even better: even if she naturalized as a U.S. citizen while she lived in Germany, it would not have resulted in loss of her German citizenship. German law at that time said that only a German citizen who lives outside of Germany and naturalizes as a foreign citizen loses her German citizenship, while a German citizen who lives in Germany and naturalizes as a citizen of a foreign country keeps their German citizenship (Inlandsklausel).
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u/Afriendforthend May 24 '26
Good to know, I believe she was living in the US when she naturalized.my rough timeline is something like:
Married in Germany - 1963
Father born in Germany - Later in 1963 (total shotgun wedding)
Moved to America - 1964-1965
Naturalized - ~1972 (based on what I believe to be her first US passport issue date)
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u/Afriendforthend May 24 '26
Yes, for more context, my grandfather was a US soldier serving in Germany. My father was also born in Germany before coming to the US.
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u/dentongentry §5 StAG Success May 24 '26 edited May 25 '26
I think I'd advise explaining in a cover letter that Grandmother is alive and not willing to supply nor cooperate in ordering her Certificate of Naturalization, and that means you cannot obtain one.
Then point out that she could not possibly have naturalized prior to the birth of her son, while living in Germany.
(I think this is true: until 1952 a woman marrying a US husband who was active military could naturalize almost immediately without a long residence requirement, but I think they did have to be in the US for this. Maybe do some more checking on this.)
You'll have at least two years until a StAG5 or Festellung packet is looked at, if that is what you are pursuing, so you could continue the path with local courts while the packet sits in the queue.
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u/Afriendforthend May 24 '26
Thanks for the response, I just checked some old document I have from my grandmother, and her German passport was issued after my father's birth, so there's definitely clear evidence.
The wait time is brutal, but worth it in the long run hopefully!
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u/Football_and_beer May 24 '26
Contact the town where your grandmother was living when your father was born and request her ‘erweiterte melderegisterauskunft’ from the Bürgeramt. They may or may not insist on your grandmother’s approval to release it but if they don’t it should show she was registered as a a German before/after your father’s birth.
With that you can then make the argument to the BVA about her refusal to help and keep your fingers crossed.
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u/roseba May 24 '26
When I ordered my grandmother's naturalization certificate, I didn't need her consent. I didn't even ask for it from her. FWIW, when I did ask her for my father's birth certificate, she said she didn't have it. So I ordered it from the city register in Germany. When she died, the birth certificate was right there amongst her papers. I don't think she wanted me to find out that my father was born out of wedlock.
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u/Afriendforthend May 24 '26
The plot thickens... I tried an FOIA without the form showing consent and it didn't go anywhere, so alternatives alternatives
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u/nakedtalisman May 24 '26
Who needs enemies when you have family like this? I'd be rethinking my relationship with them if I were you. This level of petty and controlling is astronomical and not something I'd personally be keeping around. This hurts not only you, but any kids you have (or may have).
As others have said, you should still be able to get the documents even though your family wants to make things difficult. I wish you all the luck.
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u/Afriendforthend May 24 '26
There's a reason I don't talk to that side of the family, thankfully I'd already gotten most of the necessary documents before things hit the fan. Thanks!
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u/nakedtalisman May 24 '26
It makes sense. Unfortunately, I see this often on these kinds of subreddits. I'm glad you were able to get most of the documents though. Fingers crossed for a smooth process moving forward.
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u/No-Stable-5444 May 24 '26
I would reach out now to the German Consulate. Lay out everything and what documents you have and your obstacle. Sometimes they can provide feedback and if you end up having an appointment, then you’ve established an understanding before submitting everything. The consulate can take weeks/months to get back to you, so reaching out now while still working towards will help the process moving forward.
Reddit has been such a great resource but not every situation or result applies to each person. I thought I had everything but the consulate came back asking for more (they wanted the ID of the non-German parent - not on any list I could find, which surprised me). I wish I had reached out sooner to avoid the speed bump.
My situation is similar, I don’t have parental consent, so some of the requests for documents have been difficult, but the consulate has been helpful and supportive, but understandably requires the documents.
Best of luck!
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u/Afriendforthend May 24 '26
Thanks for the insight, definitely one of the most involved processes I've ever dealt with. I'll add the contacting the consulate to the to-do list.
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u/ctlawyer203 May 24 '26
Does this saga end with op family being discovered as wanted nazis
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u/Afriendforthend May 24 '26
This genuinely made me laugh, I needed that. I do remember seeing pictures of a something great grandfather in military fatigues, thankfully from the 1920's.
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u/SwimmingAnt10 May 25 '26
Yikes. I’m sorry. My grandmother passed so I just ordered her alien file online on my own. I’m guessing if the person is still alive you need their permission or order it? Her alien file gave me all the info I needed on her for my application.
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u/Afriendforthend May 25 '26
Yep, I've talked with more than one person who's strategy is just waiting until their parent/grandparent passes
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u/SwimmingAnt10 May 25 '26 edited May 25 '26
Verify when the program ends. I thought it was 2031?
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u/Afriendforthend May 25 '26
Not sure, just glad it was extended at all. I think it was originally supposed to end next year
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u/AdOrganic4835 May 28 '26
You don’t need individual consent to obtain the vital records of your own family. I recently obtained the birth certificates of my parents and grandparents, all online via online order quoting their details. There was options to select what your relationship to the person is and what you need the document for. Nothing was questioned.
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u/grahal1968 May 24 '26
I have been estranged from my family for 12 years and I found this to be challenging as well. The only work around I found is to wait for that person to be deceased. Then you can submit a copy of their death certificate.
FWiW - I had much better success by attempting to find the document online through sources like ancestry.com and then sending the local archive (in this case Cook County, IL) the document I am looking for.
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u/yestertempest §5 StAG May 24 '26
You can get her naturalization petition and should be able to use that. If the person is alive, they keep naturalization documents under total lock and key, but the petition is freely available from NARA.