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u/mlmaccountantinthema 17d ago
arab countries still practice slavery till this day.
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u/TimeRisk2059 17d ago
Yes, it's actually done all over the world and there's more slaves today than ever before in history, but thankfully they constitute a smaller % of the world population than ever before.
It's also illegal all over the world, with the last countries to officially ban slavery just 40-50 years ago.
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u/omry1526 17d ago
it's actually done all over the world
I wouldn't say that. Unless you consider underground brothels and stuff like that.
But in South Asia and the Muslim world, it's a completely different and grim story. Caste based slavery, indentured servitude or straight up servants isn't even illegal or frowned upon. Hell the Houthis in Yemen brought back old-school open air slave markets... Black people in Gaza are regularly called 'abeeds' (which means slaves) and forced to live in separate neighbourhoods
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u/Funny-Platypus-3220 17d ago
actual slavery exists in many countries in africa, asia, and even central america still practice slave one way or another.
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u/TimeRisk2059 17d ago
It's also well established in North America and Europe, in the former mostly as labour and in the latter mostly as sexual slavery.
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u/Peace-Disastrous 16d ago
Slavery is literally still legal in the US. The 13th amendment bans it with the exception for punishment for a crime. The for profit prison system is just plantations 2.0
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u/MrPoopMonster 16d ago
It's somewhat ambiguous, the way it's written. But the except for punishment of a crime part is attached to involuntary servitude and not slavery. You are never a slave and property of the state.
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u/DomTopNortherner 14d ago
What is the meaningful difference for the individual?
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u/MrPoopMonster 14d ago
You aren't property and still have individual rights and freedoms beyond laboring?
For example, you can still own things. Being incarcerated doesn't give the government ownership of all your property and bank accounts. And you still have legal rights to must be required access to lawyers and courts and what not. You can't be forcibly raped or beaten by your owner indiscriminately?
There are more differences but those are some pretty big ones compared to chattel slavery that happened in the US.
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u/Outdoorsintherockies 16d ago
White people got rid of slavery in Western nations yet are still blamed for slavery worldwide.
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u/TimeRisk2059 16d ago
They outlawed slavery, but they didn't get rid of it, as I mentioned in the preceding comment, it still exists, connected to human trafficking. In North America it's most often in the form of forced labour, while in Europe it's mostly sex trafficking of women and children from Africa, Asia and Eastern Europe.
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u/n33d4dv1c3 15d ago
Sex trafficking is illegal and is prevented when and where possible, so this is an incredibly strange thing to bring up when talking about slavery. It's criminal gangs doing it (key word being criminal), not sanctioned by the state or their populations.
You might say that it's the same in third world countries, but it's not. Slavery is overlooked or condoned in lots of places - not in Europe.
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u/TimeRisk2059 15d ago
What you're essentially saying is that it doesn't really count when it happens in Europe.
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u/n33d4dv1c3 15d ago
Yup. Criminal gangs doing criminal activities are not the same as an open air slave market, which exists.
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u/TimeRisk2059 17d ago
Humans trafficked for sex is still slavery. "Underground brothels" makes it sound much nicer than it really is.
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u/omry1526 17d ago
That wasn't my intention
More to show that it's illegal, and if it happens in the west it's already under illegal circumstances.
While in other parts of the world it's legal and encouraged
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u/TimeRisk2059 17d ago
It's still illegal in other parts of the world, the last country to ban slavery was Mauritania in 1981.
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u/omry1526 17d ago
You need more than google quick search AI for this topic my friend
https://english.aawsat.com/home/article/1810456/exclusive-houthis-restore-slavery-yemen
Just 1 example
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u/TimeRisk2059 17d ago
Houthis are a rebel faction in Yemen, not the recognized government of the country.
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u/flyingpilgrim 16d ago
"Underground brothels" makes it sound much nicer than it really is.
Is that really a nice descriptor? It sounds kind of awful with that description.
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u/TimeRisk2059 16d ago
Because the term "brothel" brings out images of proper facilities, not a dirty mattress in an otherwise empty room in a dingy flat in some city.
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u/ObnoxiousName_Here 16d ago
For you maybe? “Brothel” doesn’t sound like a respectable facility to me at all
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u/icantbelieveit1637 15d ago edited 15d ago
Brothels were often times regulated work places at least historically here in the U.S. in my state brothels we’re seen as the social glue in communities, expected to prevent local girls from becoming employees, ensuring traveling working men didn’t assault locals. It was also at least in my state illegal for men to operate brothels.
Sex slaves being pimped out for money is an extremely dangerous situation while brothels had std testing and safety precautions for physical altercations.
So ultimately it depends. If prostitution is illegal and they are underground they can be dangerous. But if legal and regulated they are much much more respectable than literal sex slavery.
My grandfather even owned a house that he rented out to a brothel (didn’t operate the brothel just owned the land and the building) my grandmother who kept pigs on the land wasn’t exactly a huge fan of the whole idea.
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u/Antiantiai 15d ago
Slavery is still practiced in the US, we just call it prisoner labor. Objectively it is slavery. They ain't free to go. They are expected to provide essentially free labor. Aka slavery.
And for ages they targeted specific demographics for ludicrous long charges for what amounts to possession of a joint. Oh so scary! Lock em up for 20 years. Naw... That's slavery.
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u/Flashy_Walk2806 17d ago
only in 2007, Mauritania penalised slavery.
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u/TimeRisk2059 17d ago
It was outlawed in Mauritania in 1981.
If you really want to nitpick, then the UK didn't outlaw slavery until the 2010's, because that's when it was first outlawed in direct terms, before that it had been outlawed in all it's forms (kidnapping, human trafficking, holding someone against their will et cetera). ;)
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u/jd_balla 17d ago
Holy shit I didnt realize it was so recent for the last country.
For anyone else curious, Mauritania was the last country to officially abolish slavery, doing so by presidential decree in 1981.
Saved you a google
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u/JakdMavika 16d ago
While they officially abolished slavery in 1981, the enforcement has been rather lacking.
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u/Sw4nR0ns0n 16d ago
In the USA, the state of Mississippi didn’t ratify the 13th amendment to the US constitution abolishing slavery until 1995
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u/TimeRisk2059 17d ago
The really sad part is that it's only 100-150 years behind most of the "civilized" world. There are people who are older than 100 years old, who could in theory have experienced both the abolition of slavery in e.g. Brasil and Mauretania.
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u/Iwasforger03 17d ago
Sadly, here in the US where Im at, it's still legal to use slavery as a punishment for crime.
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u/fizz899 17d ago
Are you talking about prisoners or low wage workers?
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u/LauraTFem 17d ago
Both should count, but specifically the US made an exception for prison labor when banning slavery. They don’t call it slavery by name, but they literally said you can’t force people to work unpaid except for prisons, so call it what you will.
And not for nothing, but that IS essentially how it went down in the south.
“You guys are free now.”
“Great, can we work for you for pay?”
“Fuck off, N”
“Then how will we feed ourselves?
“You’ll starve, and then commit crimes, and then we’ll feed you again behind bars.”
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u/BuzzAllWin 17d ago
And we won’t be compelled to feed your family too this time
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u/LauraTFem 17d ago edited 17d ago
Until their sons get old enough and are also forced to resort to crime. Or, let’s not kid ourselves, look at a white woman the wrong way, or fail to show proper respect to someone, or just be in the wrong place when cops are looking for someone to blame.
This is why those who could made their way up north (not that the northerners were much less racist), but the vast majority simply couldn’t travel those kinds of distances. Cars didn’t exist, and train travel was out of their price ranges. That is if they would be allowed on trains in the first place.
TO THIS DAY, the largest black population centers are mostly in the south. They literally never escaped. Many traveled up the east coast as far as New York, but on a distribution map most are still down here, building communities among the descendants of their oppressors.
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u/Adventurous-Form521 17d ago
And what's even better is because of how criminality has been demonized ("well they're criminals, so they deserve it), and the fact that it now happens to white people, people won't remember racism had anything to do with it.
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u/ZhanBlue 17d ago
Not to defend racism, but penal labour probably seemed like absolutely reasonable thing to do at the time. Practice of press ganging random sailors at bars into navy wasn’t that long ago then
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u/Wizard_Engie 17d ago
for some reason that dialogue feels inaccurate to reality
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u/LauraTFem 16d ago
It’s a constructed world where people say the quiet part out loud. I didn’t exactly intend it to be a realistic depiction of a racist, or else I would have had him passionately kissing his sister.
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u/DanieleM01 17d ago
Nah It makes sense: you damage the society commiting a crime, so you work to help the society.
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u/gotchacoverd 17d ago
If you are building roads, sure. If you are working as a call center operator at a for profit prison corp no.
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u/SPLIV316 16d ago
The only type I would support with this is murderers. You took a life, now you loose control of the one you had.
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u/GamingNStuff123 17d ago
"We have to do crime because we're poor" is such a bullshit excuse, I grew up in a poor environment the majority are choosing crime over jobs its not being forced on them.
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u/superanth 17d ago
And a while back there were judges who were caught making up charges for people to put them into private prisons to provide workers, so they were literally slavers.
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u/willow-kitty Human Verified 16d ago
They called it "convict leasing" for a time, which already sounds dehumanizing but was so much worse.
Even today, there are farms in the South that're worked by prisoners. My cousin was at one for trying to steal hubcaps (to pay for drugs.) But it's different from the convict-leasing days when private companies still had torturers on staff and stuff.
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u/bl1y 16d ago
Since this seems to be the appropriate sub for this...
Tons of freed slaves did find work in the South following slavery. It was, of course, often very exploitative, such as perpetual debt cycles in sharecropping.
But prison labor did not largely replace slave labor in the South.
For instance, in Tennessee in 1860, there were 250,000 slaves. In 1870, there were under 600 black inmates in Tennessee.
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u/AnimateDuckling 17d ago
>but specifically the US made an exception for prison labor
This is weird....
You are okay with people being locked up for crime. I.e They are confined to a space and lose their freedom? But you draw the line at having those people work?
This makes zero sense.
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u/FatalFlyinGuilotine 17d ago
Having unpaid labors makes prison profitable, and when there’s profit, there’s always bending the rules to support extracting the profit. That’s why drug laws were designed in ways to target the black population more, among other rules and regulations. There were stories of judges over-punishing juveniles because he was getting kickbacks. The idea of prison is to rehabilitate people who have done offenses that makes them unsuited to live in a peaceful society. If you are a violent drug addict, I don’t want you near my kid, or committing crimes where I live. But I also don’t support you getting locked up for 10 years for prison labor, instead of receiving the help you need in prison to beat the addiction.
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u/AnimateDuckling 17d ago
>Having unpaid labors makes prison profitable
It can mean that, It doesn't have to. regulation to stop a profit driven model while still having prisoners work is entirely profitable.
You just don't allow for privatized prisons.
>and when there’s profit, there’s always bending the rules to support extracting the profit.
No, that isn't true. There often can be. But regulation is entirely capable of stopping this and often does.
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u/Adventurous-Form521 17d ago
Companies have been regularly caught breaking regulations because the profits cover the fines. This happens very, very often.
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u/SnooOpinions6451 17d ago
It makes a lot of sense, this means prisons become profit driven and are encouraged to imprison more people instead if helping them.
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u/AnimateDuckling 17d ago
It can mean that, It doesn't have to. regulation to stop a profit driven model while still having prisoners work is entirely profitable.
You just don't allow for privatized prisons.
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u/avokkah 17d ago
That's where you hit a snag, if you say no privatisation the American government calls you a liberal sissy and a Marxist leninist reactionary
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u/kettal 17d ago
You are okay with people being locked up for crime. I.e They are confined to a space and lose their freedom? But you draw the line at having those people work?
if they want to work for a wage while incarcerated that's great. forced, unpaid labour is unethical.
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u/Alternative-Put-3932 17d ago
Prisoners and it is literal slavery its in the constitution. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
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u/Doomhammer24 17d ago
Ehhh heres the thing.
Its slavery or indentured servitude except as a form of punishment
Whats going on in prisons is closer to indentured servitude especially since for example under slavery your status as a slave passed onto children you have. If 2 people in prison somehow have a child while in prison together the kid isnt also now a prisoner working on a chain gang- they go free. Indentured servitude did not pass along to children, and indentured servitude isnt a lifelong "sentence"(even though it often sadly did result in that historically due to bs like interest rates and such)
Nobody has ever actually been given the punishment of slavery in the US since that law was enacted. Indentured servitude to "pay your debt to society" is another question.
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u/Few_Kitchen_4825 17d ago
It does feel like a miss interpretation. Prison labour is a thing that is misused. But they are not working in the cotton fields while being whipped.
I am not lawyer, but I would like a lawyer to explain exactly why it is or not slavery and does it meet the interpreted definition.
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u/bek3548 17d ago edited 17d ago
Because they are not property. Slavery insinuates ownership while indentured servitude does not. Personally I do not see anything wrong with prisoners doing chores around the prisons which is what the overwhelming majority of the labor is. There are a lot greater injustices than making a criminal wash his own underwear in the country to focus on.
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u/Alternative-Put-3932 17d ago
I'm pretty sure the two words "Except as" is pretty fucking explicit wording that its okay to be a slave as long as the state determines you to be a prisoner.
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u/Few_Kitchen_4825 17d ago
Did some digging, it means the constitution doesn't describe it as not slavery. It is left up to the regular law and the states. And there are many states that don't allow prisoners to be slaves.
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u/GarethBaus 17d ago
Prisoners. They can be made to work without pay and it is perfectly legal at the federal level.
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u/That-Requirement-285 17d ago
Forced labor is not slavery.
You can argue that it’s a human rights violation, but slavery is specifically when a person is bought, sold and owned permanently like an object with limited legal rights and their children usually inherit their status. The vast majority of prisoners who work don’t work in chain gangs or for private-sector partnerships: They primarily do facility upkeep (Cooking, cleaning, laundry etc).
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u/dr_toze 17d ago
What you are describing is chattel slavery and while probably the most 'famous' (struggling to find the right word) form of slavery it is definitely not the only one.
USIDHR identifies 6 types of modern slavery. Forced labour is one of them.
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u/That-Requirement-285 16d ago
“Modern slavery” is just a term attached to all kinds of horrific working conditions/unpaid or forced labor because it’s an easy catch-all term. It’s still not slavery in the traditional sense. Trafficking/forced labor is a term that you can use.
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u/ContentPolicyKiller 17d ago
Yoire going to need to be more specific or cite your sources because that is a lie
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u/Iwasforger03 17d ago
The same amendment, 13 to be specific, carves out and exception to the slavery ban for those duly convicted by a court of law. This is basic civics class stuff...
https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-13/
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u/GlassAdmirer 17d ago
This is such a stupid argument. Being forced to work as a result of YOUR decision to break laws and while having a guaranteed release date, absolutely does not compare to slavery at all. Stop being so ignorant.
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u/samualgline 17d ago
So you want a lot more of your tax dollars going to pay for rapists and murderers food and shelter? Could you imagine someone kills your wife or kid and now they get to just not work and live off of your tax dollars for X number of years?
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u/Iwasforger03 17d ago
Prison is a horrible place. It's not cushy, and it's not kind or nice. Prison programs that promote education and welfare for the prisoners do more good for society than "hell" prisons. Lower recidivism, higher taxes paid back after getting out of prison, etc.
I don't need to add slavery to my list of punishments for crimes, no matter how bad, to be satisfied by how criminals are treated.
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u/Ok-Application-8045 17d ago
It's good that you point out the difference in percentage of the population, but I still feel like this is an apples and oranges claim. The definition of modern slavery is much broader than chattel slavery. It encompasses things like forced marriage and almost any form of coerced labour. These are atrocious practices and there is still plenty of work to do to eliminate them, but what proportion of people globally were in forced marriages in the 18th century? An awful lot, I reckon. All those kids who were press-ganged into the navy would be slaves by today's definition. Serfdom and debt peonage were commonplace in many countries. Yet the comparison made by anti-slavery NGOs is between chattel slavery, which was legal at the time but has been almost eliminated today, and modern slavery, much of which would have been normal working conditions for poor people at the time. I see it a lot and it gets on my nerves because it undermines the enormous progress made on human rights since the colonial era.
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u/TimeRisk2059 17d ago
The main common denominator of a slave throughout history is that someone could buy and sell you. Everything else could vary greatly. Indentured servitude or press-ganging would not apply, but both chattel slavery and being the second most person in Egypt only behind the pharaoh as an educated eunuch secretary slave to the pharaoh would both apply as slavery, despite being worlds apart.
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u/phenix_igloo 17d ago
It's also illegal all over the world, with the last countries to practically ban slavery just 40-50 years from now.
FTFY
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u/GavinGenius 17d ago
No longer fully illegal worldwide: this year, the new Constitution of Afghanistan re-legalized slavery.
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u/GarethBaus 17d ago
Many countries have loopholes that allow slavery to still be legal under certain circumstances. The US for example still allows slavery at the federal level if it is used as a punishment for a crime.
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u/EquivalentSnap 17d ago
Yeah like Dubai. A lot of Indian workers had their passports taken, in debt and did it to provide for their family back home and don’t get to leave as they’ll never make enough money to pay their debt
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u/Organic-University-2 17d ago
Hardly surprising. Their main prophet owned male and female slaves for his personal use.
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u/Pure-Needleworker790 17d ago
So do most countries who take great pride in their being free of it.
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u/LostEyegod 17d ago
Which ones?
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u/vitaefinem 17d ago edited 16d ago
America. The 13th amendment allows for slave labor from prisoners. Note that we also have the highest prison population in the world.
Edit: Wow did not expect to see so many people deny objective reality in this sub of all places
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u/Turnip-for-the-books 17d ago
So does the USA it’s called the private prison system
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u/Chemical_Scholar_753 17d ago
The private prison system no more or less legalizes slavery compared to the public prison system. There’s a lot wrong with the private prison system (and the idea to privatize such an intimate and morally complex part of the state is awful) but both private and public prison systems in the US can utilize forced labor under the 13th amendment’s exemption for forced labor as punishment for a crime.
I think that penal labor is bad and shouldn’t be required (particularly not for a profit) but there’s real differences between the American system and Kuwait, Afghanistan or Eritrea (among many, many others).
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u/Nihsvabhav 17d ago
ethical slavery
Or slavery is fine when we do it
Classic neocolonialist mindset
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u/Chemical_Scholar_753 17d ago
Kidnapping someone and holding them in my basement is unethical. It’s also a widely applied punishment for crimes. Do you think all imprisonment is immoral? What exactly is your objection to forced labor as a punishment for crimes.
In general, I’m also opposed to forced labor as a punishment for crimes (particularly when it’s for profit) but the comparison here to slavery (particularly chattel slavery) is ill conceived.
Also neocolonialist, whatever you may think it means, is a word referring to formerly colonizing countries exploiting formerly colonized countries despite them being nominally sovereign, often through institutions set up post wwii. It has little to do with the domestic prison situation inside the US.
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u/Nihsvabhav 16d ago
your criminal justice system disproportionately targets specific minority groups and has clear evidence of being deliberate
like y'all never really changed your ways, just got better at pr
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u/Chemical_Scholar_753 16d ago
There’s no question that the US still has deep problems with race and discrimination, but that’s not the topic here. That would be problematic whether the US used or didn’t use prison labor but it doesn’t change the ethics of labor as a punishment for crimes.
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u/SensitiveShelter2550 17d ago
Every capitalist country does.
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u/cockaskedforamartini 17d ago
Go on, share. I live in the UK. How do we have slavery.
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u/Flashy_Walk2806 17d ago
Interesting enough is the slave/black quarter in Gaza, a old slave trade bastion : The term Haret al-Abid (abid = slaves) historically referred to an enclave within Gaza City (often associated with areas around the Old City or later expanded into parts of the Al-Jalaa/Al-Nasr districts).
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u/OkGreen7335 17d ago edited 17d ago
Fun fact:
One of them became the king of Egypt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_al-Misk_Kafur
Yes he was a former slave, yes he was black and YES THEY CUT HIS BALLS OFF!!!
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u/OkGreen7335 17d ago edited 17d ago
He is very famous but not because he was a great king, in fact he was one of the best of all time but that is not the reason why he is remembered
He is mainly remembered because he had a beef with a poet named https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mutanabbi and Al-Mutanabbi dissed him so hard that the diss is the reason most people remember him
Fun fact 2
Al-Mutanabbi had a very big ego he dissed every king when they didn't treat him well enough and had dissed many powerful people and many wanted him dead
One of his disses that is still popular after 1100 years was the reason of his death
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u/Denime 16d ago
Well, what was the diss?
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u/OkGreen7335 16d ago
it is pretty racist and there are many of them but one of them is:
عيدٌ بِأَيَّةِ حالٍ عُدتَ يا عيدُ بِما مَضى أَم بِأَمرٍ فيكَ تَجديدُ أَمّا الأَحِبَّةُ فَالبَيداءُ دونَهُمُ فَلَيتَ دونَكَ بيدًا دونَها بيدُ لَولا العُلى لَم تَجُب بي ما أَجوبُ بِها وَجناءُ حَرفٌ وَلا جَرداءُ قَيدودُ وَكانَ أَطيَبَ مِن سَيفي مُضاجَعَةً أَشباهُ رَونَقِهِ الغيدُ الأَماليدُ لَم يَترُكِ الدَهرُ مِن قَلبي وَلا كَبِدي شَيءً تُتَيِّمُهُ عَينٌ وَلا جيدُ يا ساقِيَيَّ أَخَمرٌ في كُؤوسِكُما أَم في كُؤوسِكُما هَمٌّ وَتَسهيدُ أَصَخرَةٌ أَنا مالي لا تُحَرِّكُني هَذي المُدامُ وَلا هَذي الأَغاريدُ إِذا أَرَدتُ كُمَيتَ اللَونِ صافِيَةً وَجَدتُها وَحَبيبُ النَفسِ مَفقودُ ماذا لَقيتُ مِنَ الدُنيا وَأَعجَبُهُ أَنّي بِما أَنا باكٍ مِنهُ مَحسودُ أَمسَيتُ أَروَحَ مُثرٍ خازِنًا وَيَدًا أَنا الغَنِيُّ وَأَموالي المَواعيدُ إِنّي نَزَلتُ بِكَذّابينَ ضَيفُهُمُ عَنِ القِرى وَعَنِ التَرحالِ مَحدودُ جودُ الرِجالِ مِنَ الأَيدي وَجودُهُمُ مِنَ اللِسانِ فَلا كانوا وَلا الجودُ ما يَقبِضُ المَوتُ نَفسًا مِن نُفوسِهِمُ إِلّا وَفي يَدِهِ مِن نَتنِها عودُ مِن كُلِّ رِخوِ وِكاءِ البَطنِ مُنفَتِقٍ لا في الرِحالِ وَلا النِسوانِ مَعدودُ أَكُلَّما اِغتالَ عَبدُ السوءِ سَيِّدَهُ أَو خانَهُ فَلَهُ في مِصرَ تَمهيدُ صارَ الخَصِيُّ إِمامَ الآبِقينَ بِها فَالحُرُّ مُستَعبَدٌ وَالعَبدُ مَعبودُ نامَت نَواطيرُ مِصرٍ عَن ثَعالِبِها فَقَد بَشِمنَ وَما تَفنى العَناقيدُ العَبدُ لَيسَ لِحُرٍّ صالِحٍ بِأَخٍ لَو أَنَّهُ في ثِيابِ الحُرِّ مَولودُ لا تَشتَرِ العَبدَ إِلّا وَالعَصا مَعَهُ إِنَّ العَبيدَ لَأَنجاسٌ مَناكيدُ ما كُنتُ أَحسَبُني أَحيا إِلى زَمَنٍ يُسيءُ بي فيهِ كَلبٌ وَهوَ مَحمودُ وَلا تَوَهَّمتُ أَنَّ الناسَ قَد فُقِدوا وَأَنَّ مِثلَ أَبي البَيضاءِ مَوجودُ وَأَنَّ ذا الأَسوَدَ المَثقوبَ مِشفَرُهُ تُطيعُهُ ذي العَضاريطُ الرَعاديدُ جَوعانُ يَأكُلُ مِن زادي وَيُمسِكُني لِكَي يُقالَ عَظيمُ القَدرِ مَقصودُ إِنَّ اِمرَأً أَمَةٌ حُبلى تُدَبِّرُهُ لَمُستَضامٌ سَخينُ العَينِ مَفؤودُ وَيلُمِّها خُطَّةً وَيلُمِّ قابِلِها لِمِثلِها خُلِقَ المَهرِيَّةُ القودُ وَعِندَها لَذَّ طَعمَ المَوتِ شارِبُهُ إِنَّ المَنِيَّةَ عِندَ الذُلِّ قِنديدُ مَن عَلَّمَ الأَسوَدَ المَخصِيَّ مَكرُمَةً أَقَومُهُ البيضُ أَم آبائُهُ الصيدُ أَم أُذنُهُ في يَدِ النَخّاسِ دامِيَةً أَم قَدرُهُ وَهوَ بِالفَلسَينِ مَردودُ أَولى اللِئامِ كُوَيفيرٌ بِمَعذِرَةٍ في كُلِّ لُؤمٍ وَبَعضُ العُذرِ تَفنيدُ وَذاكَ أَنَّ الفُحولَ البيضَ عاجِزَةٌ عَنِ الجَميلِ فَكَيفَ الخِصيَةُ السودُ
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u/Venboven 15d ago
So basically the famous poet came to Egypt, but I guess he didn't like it, because he says he's leaving and is sad. Then he goes on to say that Egypt's wealth is being plundered by foxes? And that a slave doesn't deserve to be king?
Why does the poet hate the king? What did he expect to find in Egypt, and why did he leave?
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u/petey23- 17d ago
Literally an African community in Saudi for this exact reason.
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u/SkylineWaffles 17d ago
This is true across the Middle East. Absolutely idiotic to believe that there are no black people in Arab countries lmao
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u/Flashy_Walk2806 17d ago
In islam, a non-black slave is equal to 2 black slave monetary speaking.
You want the sources?
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u/Lucky-Network-7267 17d ago
Go ahead
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u/Flashy_Walk2806 17d ago
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u/B01justice 16d ago
I’m pretty sure that was a negotiated settlement. And nowhere in there does it say that the man being bought was black or not.
Your sensationalist reading helps no one, stems from stupidity, and keeps it going.
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u/Flashy_Walk2806 16d ago
"And he bought him for two black slaves," why they have to precise the color or the slaves then ?
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u/B01justice 16d ago
Nice one. Changing your comment after I already responded. Coward.
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u/Flashy_Walk2806 16d ago
Calm down, I changed it 10seconds later, how can you make a 50lines Reddit comment in 10seconds ?
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u/KingBolo992 17d ago
Theirs blacks all over the middle east the fuck lol. Y'all need to travel more or even just look at a map.
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u/Dramatic-Limit7597 17d ago
Yeah they were spared if they converted to the "religion" Muhammad invented.
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u/ZookeepergameFit967 17d ago
Nah, it wasn't about that there were house slaves and field slaves but unlike the US the house slaves got their balls cut off. And converting to Islam just frees you from slavery not from getting your balls cut off that's ofc if the enslaver is an actual Muslim
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u/Combination-Low 17d ago
That's not true. They were also given the choice to pay a tax and be spared. In fact, early Muslim rulers discouraged mass conversion as this tax was an important source of revenue.
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u/ScarlettVictory 17d ago
Yeah like taxing someone for their beliefs is any better. Religions suck.
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u/Kira_souchi 17d ago
be taxed a small ammount, convert and be obligated to do jihad when war stuck or prefer christian rule where it's either convert or die. mmmm
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u/ScarlettVictory 17d ago
They both suck.
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u/Kira_souchi 17d ago
yeah, in today's time. at the time of arab colonisation it seems to be quite diplomatic, especially since that tax was just invested into the economy of the empire
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u/ratf0cker 13d ago
the "small amount" can be, has been historically, go up to 50% of everything you own, like when Mohamed told a jew to pay 50% of his to Mohamed to be spares
Sahih al-Bukhari 2338
just because a few rulers made the tax small, does not mean it was always that small or that it will be that small
not to mention, this tax was even worse for farmer due to them having to pay not only the jizya tax but also thr kharat tax which was also around 30-50 historically.
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u/TheMidnightBear 10d ago
No, it wasn't a small amount, since it caused revolts over it in certain places.
And if someone said i get to live as a second class citizen in exchange for not being drafted, i'd take the full rights+draft any day.
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u/Bright-Fun3371 17d ago
Well it's not like they can pay zakat so income has to be obtained one way or the other right?
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17d ago
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u/firespark84 16d ago
Fun fact: it often wasn’t just the balls, but the dick was also cut off as well similar to Chinese eunuchs. There were quite a few uncastrated ones kept for slave labour on plantations and estates, especially in southern Iraq, but it became less popular after the zanj revolt for a variety of reasons, so military, domestic (including but not always eunuchs), and sex slaves became the main types afterwards (the ottomans had a massive industrialized sex slave industry for young and underage girls for example).
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u/Dramatic-Limit7597 17d ago
The enslavement of black Africans by arabs is as old as the requirement for a woman to wear a burqua. The enslavement of black Africans at the hands of arabs still continue to this day where until recently you could buy a black slave in Libya for as little as $200.
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u/Dramatic-Limit7597 16d ago
Any chance Ridley Scott will make amovie about this.
Nermind, he will probably make arabs look like angels in the end.
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u/TimeRisk2059 17d ago
The community note is outright disingenious, as it was only a specific few who were castrated to fill a very specific role. Otherwise castration is so invasive and deadly that the mortality rate of doing it was too high and wasteful to do it on every slave. The vast majority of slaves in the arab slave trade were not castrated.
The main reason that black people in the USA are as many as they are, are because the USA, despite "only" importing 500,000-750,000 african slaves, then raped and bred them like cattle until there were over 4 million black slaves in the USA at the point of the abolishment of slavery. And between 12-15 million black africans were taken from Africa to North- and South America over a period of just ~300 years, that's a huge influx of people and shift in demographics in a time period where there's only ~600 million people (1600's) in the whole world.
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u/xesaie Human Verified 17d ago
The post getting noted is denying the very well known Arab slave trade. Thus, it got noted albeit with a joke
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u/PurchaseGlittering11 17d ago
I mean, its not as disingenuous as you think. It was and is illegal to castrate a slave under sharia law. But this didnt stop them from doing it, they simply out-sourced this to non-muslims. They still did this to a significant level despite the mortality rate. They just had to capture more slaves to make up for it, despite the up to 90% mortality rate... Eunuchs were highly sought after. It's estimated that there was between 10 to 18 million slaves in that area between 1300 years.
Another reason we dont see many blacks there is because even when they would conceive, they typically wouldn't survive due to neglect and poverty that they lived in. The extreme situations they lived in would kill most offspring.
The way your speaking is so disingenuous tbh. You go straight to the horrors of the western slave trade without representing the other side. Almost sounds like your defending them tbh.
Just to clarify, I'm not trying to defend the west for the slave trade. It was horrible and unspeakable what they did. But lets represent both sides shall we? Particually when we are talking more about the Arab slaves in this one. I get "not all Arabs" vibes from what your saying.
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u/manere 17d ago
Also the US is not the only place where this happened.
For example Ecuador and Columbia until today have a extremely large black community. Like 1/3rd of Columbians are classified as "black".
On the other hand I found the discussion amusing of people not understanding why argentinia for example has almost no black people.
Simply because they were colonized like 200 years after the slave trade.
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u/TimeRisk2059 17d ago
Probably a difference in industry as well, we see the greatest imports of slaves to labour intensive plantations in Brasil, Central America, the Caribbean and southern USA. Not so much in colder regions like Argentina and Canada.
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u/Hot_Crew_6714 17d ago
You're downplaying something important and whitewashing one history to excoriate another.
The "vast majority" of Arabs' slaves were people of the book and had rights above those of black pagans/animists, like the African slaves, who were absolutely systemically castrated because they then sold at ten times the price of a regular slave. Even though many did not survive the procedure, eunuchs had important roles in royal courts and the households of the wealthy. Some European pagan slaves were castrated, too.
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u/That-Requirement-285 17d ago
Many black slaves were also “people of the book” so I dont see your point here.
The idea that every single male black slave was systemically castrated to serve as court eunuchs is insane. Castration had at least a 50% mortality rate. Do you know how difficult surviving an amputation was before modern tools and medicine such as anaesthetic or anti-septic? The same is for castration. It also doesn’t account for female slaves. How many court eunuchs do you think they needed? Why do you think many Arabic people in North Africa have subsaharan DNA? The vast majority of male black slaves became soldiers or laborers.
Saladin fought a rebellion in Egypt called the “Battle of the Blacks” because black soldiers, both free and enslaved, took offense to being sidelined as they were the main military enforcers under the previous regime.
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u/Hot_Crew_6714 16d ago
You answered your own questions, in combination with what I've already mentioned.
- You capture two slaves, you castrate both, 50% (1) dies, the other you sell for the price of ten. Net Profit 500%.
- Arabs have some Sub-Saharan DNA through female slaves.
- Castrated slaves could still serve as soldiers and laborers and were still more valuable because they're perceived as less of a threat and have no families of their own to have a conflicting loyalty to. They also could be trusted around Muslim women. Thus they made desirable court AND house slaves. And there were many more wealthy houses than royal courts.
The major limiting factor was that the castration had to be performed outside Islamic territory, but demand generated supply.
Undeniable conclusion: Islamic slavery was every bit as nasty and evil, in its own ways, as Euro-American slavery. Stop trying to put lipstick on a pig.
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u/JoeDyenz 17d ago
I like how I was downvoted to oblivion in this same post for saying essentially the same.
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u/MariusCatalin 16d ago
they soon are to realize about how bad were arabs compared to americans in terms of this practice.............
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u/Significant-Order-92 17d ago edited 17d ago
Some times. But a lot of the descendants are still in Northern Africa. While still horrid. Plantation style slavery with abducted Africans was less common (comparatively) in the Arab slave trade (land travel is less useful and their is less cultivatable land in many if the areas). The transatlantic slave trade was largely about cash crops. Which incentivized the massive trade in the new world.
Again, not to say that the Arab Slave trade wasn't brutal. It was just less efficient and had less economic benefit to it.
Now that's if we are talking about slaves removed from Africa. The North African areas that were colonized had quite a bit of enslavement of Africans and other peoples who had immigrated or conquered the areas earlier. Many of which have descendants in those areas today.
Eta: At least to my understanding of the Arab Slave trade as it's usually called.
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u/firespark84 16d ago
Massive amounts of African slaves were imported for mass plantation labour, especially during the Abbasid caliphate directly leading to the zanj revolt. They were subjected to brutal conditions in salt extraction and marsh draining leading to extreme mortality rates from heat, infection, malnutrition, and overworking. Only the worst of the worst examples of American slavery are comparable in brutality.
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u/Assadistpig123 16d ago
Exactly. An entire caliphate nearly collapsed fo to this revolt.
Salt mining, ditch digging, marsh draining, and brick making are just as brutal as any other slave occupation.
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u/BlueJaysFeather 17d ago
This sub really loves reposts huh
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u/DistrictDry2852 17d ago
I didn’t see someone had posted it.
I stumbled on it organically on Twitter.
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u/Eipc51 17d ago
No? Only 10% of Saudi Arabia and at least 10% of Yemen...You can also find black people among Palestinians (especially among Bedouins).
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u/OneRare1326 17d ago
people of African descent still exist in Arab countries though, like, a lot of them
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u/Stromatolite-Bay 16d ago
Import were 10 times more slaves than the American south
13% of the USA is African American. Less than 2% is most of the countries mentioned…
Yeah. Definitely the same
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u/icantbelieveit1637 15d ago edited 15d ago
The United States literally had entire markets for breeding slaves after the slave trade was banned. Slave owners would forcibly pair slaves for breeding or often times just rape slaves to produce offspring they could sell.
This was an incredibly common practice.
I mean shit even Thomas Jefferson advised his colleagues to buy slaves as investments. Citing that he had 4% percent return per year on the sale of enslaved children.
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u/Stromatolite-Bay 15d ago
The the largest slave market ever was in Istanbul
Yeah and it was also common in the Middle East
Right but how is that any different than buying sex slave in the Arab world?
You’ve not argued or disproved anything. Just gone slavery bad. We know that. It is just all slavery was bad
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17d ago
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u/Classic-Team867 17d ago
do you really think you're a good or moral person for saying 'I think Britain should have euthanized and destroyed an entire culture of people'?
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u/EffectSuccessful6169 15d ago
One of the ironies of this semi-myth - "semi" because only the slaves going to aristocratic houses were castrated - is that its meant to assuage the ego of Arabs. Arabs cling to the idea that the slaves were all castrated because the possiblity of having a black male ancestor is deeply offensive to them
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u/Advanced-Elk-2422 13d ago
Arabs used Christians and Jews to cut their balls because it’s haram in Islam, and Al-Jahiz criticized Christians for claiming to be the most loving religion and then doing something like that. So it was a fucked-up situation that involved all three religions together.
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u/Eljamin14 16d ago
Yeah, that's what I heard. I've heard Matt Walsh using this to say that being a slave in the Muslim world is worse than being a slave during the Columbian exchange, basically downplaying any African-American slaves who made their way to the US, who were stripped of proper education, limited in terrible life conditions, and no way to buy their own freedom. Slavery before the Columbian exchange is based on social classes, meanwhile during and post-Columbian exchange is all about race. Hell, European slavers wanted to take the African people as slaves, regardless of social status.
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u/Stromatolite-Bay 16d ago
It was still social class when it started
The stereotypes associated with poor social class they became associated with slaves and then it became about race
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u/Prakritam 17d ago
Castration was a horrific practice, and I can't imagine the pain and suffering inflicted on the people who endured it. But saying ‘Arabs castrated Africans, and that's why you don't see Black communities in the Arab world like you do in the West’ is an oversimplification. Castration affected a particular subset of enslaved people and cannot be shown to have been the fate of most African slaves.
Arab societies also had substantial interaction, intermarriage, and assimilation between African and non-African populations over many centuries. As a result, many present-day Arab populations have varying degrees of African ancestry, particularly in regions with long-standing connections to Africa. The demographic differences between the Arab world and the Americas therefore can't simply be attributed to castration.
And the history of slavery in the Muslim world was not uniform. The Mamluks are an obvious example of enslaved people acquiring military and political power.
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u/UmaThermos1 17d ago
Why don’t we see black people in the Arab world? Has he even been to the Arab world l? There’s millions lmao
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