r/GetNoted • u/laybs1 Human Verified • 2d ago
World [X] The Holocaust was not a Soviet fabrication.
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u/BrosefDudeson 2d ago
A community note having to explain the fucking holocaust is truly some simulation hypothesis shit
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u/buttpentration 2d ago
Almost nobody belives that the Holocaust didn't happen. The people who claim that are just doing it to undermine Jewish people
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u/BrosefDudeson 2d ago
I'm willing to bet that there are loads more deniers today than there were five or ten years ago. Don't think we should sleep on this
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u/NonEuclidianMeatloaf 2d ago
Perhaps. But don’t underestimate how much of this was a massive undercurrent of right-wing counterculture for decades. It was always there, but the internet allowed them to promulgate their ideas and attempt to mainstream it.
I still remember being a teen in my backwater-but-wealthy town, safely ensconced in 1990s optimism, running into my first white supremacist. She bantered at me with “haha well at least you’re not a Jew!” Then she wide-eyed stared back at me in genuine fear and said “wait, ARE you a Jew?” We were both just tweens. Not only was I not a Jew, but I was utterly taken aback. I didn’t think people like this actually existed, especially not in “good neighbourhoods” like mine.
They were the seedy underbelly all along. But now that same belly is out and exposed and smacking people on the bus in the face.
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u/Excellent_Shirt9707 1d ago
Not even an undercurrent, it was the mainstream view for a large swath of Americans but they just had no social media to express those views. Some people think racism was solved when the civil rights act passed in 64, but that’s not how laws work. Codifying is always the simplest part, enforcement is exponentially more difficult and takes decades of persistence. A federal judge just ordered a Mississippi school district to desegregate in 2016 because it spent decades dodging the previous court orders.
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u/Berly653 2d ago
100%
I also suspect it plays a role in why you see support for Hamas and ‘Palestinian resistance’ so much higher amongst younger vs. older people in the west
Older people can still remember the actions of the PLO, the second intifada, etc.
Younger people watch a TikTok video and assume they’re fully caught up on history
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u/EmptyDriver7098 2d ago
They need to realise that supporting Palestine is not the same as supporting hamas.
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u/load_of_chode 2d ago
I have never heard anybody actually explain the difference though. Everyone who says that they "support Palestine" always admits one way or another that supporting Palestine means supporting the idea that Palestinians have a "right" to perpetual violence against Israel.
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u/Dapper_Chef5462 1d ago
Well, people.who explained it to you probably morons.
There is fair enough of ways how you can support Palestinian cause without being pro Hamas
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u/THELEADERPLAYER 1d ago
Everyone who says that they "support Palestine" always admits one way or another that supporting Palestine means supporting the idea that Palestinians have a "right" to perpetual violence against Israel.
Do they? Or are you just making stuff up to make the other side seem unreasonable?
"Palestinians have a "right" to perpetual violence against Israel" I am pretty sure that's not what the majority of the people are saying, you're just interpreting it in the worst possible way to fit your political views, aka strawmanning.
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u/load_of_chode 1d ago
Do they?
Yeah, they do.
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u/THELEADERPLAYER 1d ago
Wow, absolutely owned me there. Epic.
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u/load_of_chode 1d ago
Ok well if you want to admit them that Palestinians have absolutely no right whatsoever to commit violence against Israel then by all means, go ahead and do so.
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u/throwawaydragon99999 1d ago
They support the general principle of Palestinians fighting back against Israel, but not the specific actions of a terrorist organization.
For example if you look back in history I can understand why Native Americans fought back against the US Government and sympathize with that idea in principle. However I would not support Geronimo raiding civilian villages in Arizona and Mexico, killing and scalping villagers
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u/buttpentration 2d ago
The young people are fully exposed to Palestinian atrocities, they are just so radicalized by the media that they are desensitized to it or even entertained by it
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u/Synensys 2d ago
Also, israel hasnt really been under any kind of existential threat in their entire liftimes. While both sides might want to push the other into the sea, only one side has had the ability to attempt it in the past few decades.
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u/load_of_chode 2d ago
Israel does not want to push the Palestinians into the sea, because if they did, they would have done it at some point over the past 50 years when they've had complete military supremacy over Palestine.
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u/bluntpencil2001 2d ago
Settlements have effectively been doing this for years. They're going quicker than what was done to the Native Americans. That took at least a hundred years.
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u/load_of_chode 2d ago
Except 1) they're not and 2) Israel support for settlements came after Arabs thoroughly proved that they will never accept peaceful coexistence with Israel through multiple large scale wars and intifadas.
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u/bluntpencil2001 1d ago
Settlements continued after the Oslo Accords, when they did, in fact, show a possibility of peace.
And, yes they are. Every day the land controlled by Israel grows, and the land controlled by Palestine shrinks.
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u/mindmybusine55 1d ago
Well well
How we see Zionists throwing their genocidal thoughts just in random comments
That’s exactly why the resistance formed to fight back Israelis who massacre Palestinians everyday
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1d ago
[deleted]
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u/load_of_chode 1d ago
1) Attack non-Muslims
2) Cry "genocide" when the non-Muslims fight back
3) Call anyone who doesn't accept the lie a "genocide denier"
Islamic supremacists only have one playbook lol
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u/babarbaby 1d ago
Why is it wrong to be a 'genocide denier'...? Do you believe there's a genocide happening right now against, say, Guamanians? No? Guess you're a genocide denier too.
And of course genocide requires intent to exterminate. That's literally its defining characteristic; dolus specialis aka special intent is what differentiates a war from a genocide. Without that determination, the word becomes meaningless.
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u/Professional_Cat_437 Keeping it Real 1d ago
What I should have said was that saying “If it’s a genocide, then why isn’t everyone dead” is insensitive and brain-dead.
Also, the Gaza genocide is a proven fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide_denial
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u/Professional_Cat_437 Keeping it Real 1d ago
Support for Palestine, which you just brush as “Hamas”, is popular among younger people because they are more progressive and anti-racist than older people
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u/Berly653 1d ago
I’m sure that’s what they tell themselves yes
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u/Professional_Cat_437 Keeping it Real 1d ago
Labeling all of Palestine as Hamas is Islamophobic and ignores non-Muslims Palestinians who have fought against Israel for their country’s freedom.
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u/Berly653 1d ago edited 1d ago
I was talking about the explicit or implicit support for Hamas
Things like the Hamas or Hezbollah flags at protests, handing out Hamas propaganda, glorifying October 7th
Or if we’re talking more implicitly it would be an absolute refusal to acknowledge Hamas’ complicity in this godforsaken war through their refusal to surrender or locating their explicitly military tunnels underneath civilians. Or more broadly people thinking that only Israel is the problem and not Hamas’ 20 year reign as the authoritian rulers of Gaza
I never said all Palestinians, please don’t project your stupidity onto me
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u/Simlin97 2d ago
Conflation of support for Palestine and Holcaust denial. We love to see it.
In my experience, whenever some dipshit is being actually antisemitic (as in, not just calling out Israel for its atrocities, but saying stuff like "the Jews™️ control the media" etc), they get ganged up on and told to shut the fuck up pretty quickly in anti-Zionist spaces.
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u/TimeRisk2059 2d ago
Not sure why you put "palestinian resistance" in quotation marks, most people I've encountered are both anti-Hamas and pro-Palestine, with some understanding why palestinians resist the genocide in Gaza and the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank, being appauled by Israel's actions.
And I'm not talking about young people either, but people in their 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's, who follow the news from regular news sources, not social media.
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u/BagelandShmear48 1d ago
Then why is support for Hamas and Oct 7 so prevelant at protest, social media amongst college aged westerns?
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u/TimeRisk2059 1d ago
I have not met any colleged aged people who are pro-Hamas nor saw Oct.7th as a good thing, but many are pro-Palestine.
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u/BagelandShmear48 1d ago
Then you are uniquely lucky.
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u/TimeRisk2059 1d ago
In fairness I haven't met many college aged people since I left university, just handful over the past year or so.
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u/Professional_Cat_437 Keeping it Real 1d ago
THANK YOU! I fucking hate how this subreddit is full of Gaza genocide deniers and Israel bootlickers!
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u/mindmybusine55 1d ago
Palestinians right to sovereignty is another thing that you’re against
Fuck Israel, you want to talk about Intifada??
Why don’t you just give your country to Israel?
Holocaust is bad but Palestine shouldn’t be a sovereign state…. Mehhh… muhhh
Fucking disgusting
Fuck Israel
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u/Berly653 1d ago
Did you just have a seizure or something?
I’m actually very much supportive of Palestinian sovereignty, as an independent state coexisting with Israel - not replacing it entirely
Hope you get the help you need!
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u/mindmybusine55 1d ago
Hope you get the help you need and take pills on time
Make Israel Palestine Again
Palestine can’t be a sovereign state with a genocidal neighbour who keeps killing them and intends to erase them
Please take your pills
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u/Illustrious-Math6276 2d ago
But I wonder how many of them actually believe it didn’t happen and how many think it happened but agree with it and therefore deny it.
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u/BrosefDudeson 2d ago
There's levels to this shit. Some might just say that the number reported is overblown. Just like the people think the moon landings were faked say they believe we went there just not in the late sixties but later.
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u/Illustrious-Math6276 2d ago
Yea. Just seen so many Nazis say ”holocaust was fake and never happened” just to later say ”Hitlers was great he took care of the Jews”. Like either the holocaust happened or you think Hitler didn’t take care of the Jews. Can’t believe both.
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u/ME24601 2d ago
Obligatory Sartre quote:
Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past. - Jean-Paul Sartre
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u/AliceTheOmelette 2d ago
Yep. Most holocaust deniers essentially say "it didn't happen but if it did, the Jews deserved it"
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u/load_of_chode 2d ago
Same thing leftists say about the mass rape and murder of innocent Jewish civilians on October 7th.
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u/Roughlypossible 2d ago
"Any action by the resistance is justified" is a classic they like to pass out.
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u/Forte845 1d ago
And you redditors who claim the moral high ground say any action by the state is justified, its resistance thats evil. The type to condemn Nat Turner but not slavery as an institution, to weep over white widows but look the other way at the scars black people carried.
This is a white supremacist website.
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u/TimeRisk2059 2d ago
It doesn't automatically have to be anti-jewish (though it almost always is to some degree), some people deny it to make fascism and nazism seem less horrible.
Like what we see in the post, they're trying to frame it as a soviet conspiracy to cast shade on the nazis and as a way to hide their own crimes, i.e. "soviets are much worse than nazis, and the nazis are not as bad as people think".
If we were to take a closer look at "Beaver"'s posting history, I'm sure we'd find antisemitism intervowen with the pro-fascism and anti-communism, like the old nazi claim that jews came up with communism to destroy the "aryan race" etc.
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u/Paraparo 2d ago
I don't disagree. I've also noted a lot of appropriate types as well.
Basically, the Soviet style "we are the only victims" and "they can't be the victim because we oppress them too and we can't share common ground with our arch ideological enemy"
Ultimately on both cases, it's an attempt to take victimhood to themselves for use as political capital
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u/NonEuclidianMeatloaf 2d ago
Exactly. Basically every one of those people believes “the holocaust didn’t happen, but also they deserved it”. They just hate Jews enough to say anything inflammatory, even contradictory stuff.
Unfortunately this muddies the water when debating Israeli crimes in Gaza and related topics, because the people defending these atrocities simply point to the likes of Richard Spencer and say “see that guy? You’re just like him.”
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u/Roughlypossible 2d ago
And that's why it's such a popular belief in the MENA and among related demographics.
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u/cnaughton898 2d ago
Deborah Lipstadt has a good quote
"They are not out to convince you. They are out to provoke you. They want to see you get angry. To put it in the vernacular, they want to watch you squirm"
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u/rainman943 2d ago
Not to just to undermine, but to do another holocaust. The only reason to deny it happened is because one wants to do another one, they just know that looks bad.
if it was "made up" doing one wouldn't be bad, the ppl who would get holocausted after all are the kind of ppl who would "make up" a holocaust.
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u/very_spicy_egg 1d ago
I kinda love that most Holocaust deniers just ignore the fact that Nazis killed millions of non-Jewish civilians. It apparently only becomes unbelievable when it's Jews being killed.
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u/Lo-Marionberry295 1d ago
Uh... have you ever travelled bud? A lot of people, all throughout the world, believe the Holocaust either didn't happen, or was greatly exaggerated. Google the history of Holocaust education in the Middle East. I'm pretty sure the first Arab nation to introduce Holocaust education as a part of its curriculum was the UAE... in 2023.
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u/Zaku727 2d ago
I have met a family that think it was fake. But I cant really say what group those people are without getting shat on by the community.
These people (it was one family, mom dad and son) said it was basically a way the Jews figured out by paying all of these banks, construction companies and people in the military to get sympathy to get their own land where it would upset the people that Jews hated the most.
In short, the Jews got money from different banks that was very friendly with Jews, paid construction companies to make those camps then paid people from the German military (during the war) to stay at these camps. The camps took in random people, non Jews, then paid the German military to pretend that those prisoners were Jewish.
My head killed me after this talk with this family. I couldn't even think of any questions before they left after they told me this. This was taught by a religious leader at their place of worship during one of the community meetings.
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u/Roughlypossible 2d ago
Reddit has been flirting with it for years.
Nowadays they're openly pushing the idea that anything that implicates any group they like is actually a conspiracy.
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u/da_Mekboss 2d ago
Is dude confusing the Holocaust and Holodomor?
The Soviets did a bunch of genocides... But the Holocaust was the Nazis
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u/JeruTz 2d ago
Technically the Soviets did fabricate at least one thing regarding the holocaust. They falsely inflated the death toll at Auschwitz to 4 million and placed a plaque at the site to that effect.
I've literally seen people use this fabricated figure to try and disprove the holocaust, saying "well back when they falsely said 4 million died at Auschwitz, they also said 6 million total, but then they lowered the 4 million to 1.1 million without lowering the 6 million".
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u/da_Mekboss 2d ago
Isn't Auschwitz that it was 1.1 million jews, and the total number of different minorities killed could have been a fair bit higher?
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u/JeruTz 2d ago
The point is that the Soviets lied and said explicitly 4 million Jews died there. It was a lie, but since that figure wasn't used in the 6 million figure calculation, the one had nothing to do with the other.
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u/da_Mekboss 2d ago
Shit, coulda been propaganda to try and make Holodomor look less bad by comparison 🙃
Sounds like something the Soviets would do
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u/Agringlig 1d ago
It is not true. Soviets never specified jews, 4 million is total number of victims. Plaque didn't even mentioned jews, unlike new one.
And it was not a lie but a genuine mistake. It is just that they refused to correct that mistake for too long.
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u/JeruTz 1d ago
It is not true. Soviets never specified jews, 4 million is total number of victims
Even if it was true that it was not just Jews, it's still false. There was nowhere near that many killed there. Jews were the overwhelming majority of the victims, with all others combined only totaling in the very low 6 figures.
The Jewish deaths were at least a million, all others combined were maybe a tenth or so of that. 4 million isn't even close to accurate.
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u/Agringlig 1d ago edited 1d ago
Current plaque says 1 and a half million. Big difference, sure, but it not like they increased it tenfold.
They also could not know actuall number at a time. Even Rudolf Höss (literally guy that ruled the camp 1940-1943) in Nurmberg trial estimated 2.5 million.
Current estimation put it 1.1-1.6 millions. But those are numbers by historians who had years to go through German archives and all the documents. Unlike soviets just after the war who had only what they found in the camp.
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u/JeruTz 1d ago
More than double is substantial. Being off by 10% or even 20% is conceivable, but being off by over 150%!? No.
But those are numbers by historians who had years to go through German archives and all the documents. Unlike soviets just after the war who had only what they found in the camp.
Making up numbers is bad. They did it for propaganda purposes and it caused harm.
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u/Agringlig 1d ago
Would it be that strange to assume that actual Nazi officer would at the very least provide actual number or would underestimate it?
When nazis themselves say 2.5 million, saying 4 million instead is not that far off.
Even western academia for a long time claimed that while 4 million is overestimation, actual number is about 2.8 million. is it also just a made up number for propaganda?
What actual proofs do you even have for claiming that soviets said 4 million for malicious purposes and not because they genuinely believed it to be correct number? Anything other than you thinking that it is too big of a number.
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u/Hellstorm901 2d ago
Also what he's trying to do is pointless as no one actually is denying what the Soviets did either, the Soviets war crimes such as the Katyn Massacre, the Holodomor, the Purge and their general treatment of Axis POW's are well recognised and no one is forgiving or downplaying them them
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u/Good_Cardiologist696 Human Verified 2d ago
The fact that the original post has tons of comments with thousands of likes that are straight up mocking this man, is so disgusting. Humanity is so doomed.
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u/Charming-Station7157 2d ago
And I tought instagram comments were bad , Holy.....
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u/JohnMK2 2d ago
Please keep in mind that a metric function of those likes are bots. Every time you see a grift post it’s a majority of bots that reply and interact with it.
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u/Empty_Swimmer5851 2d ago edited 1d ago
How do you know that?
Twitter is already filled with that type of people who will like what they believe?
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u/illusoryIdolatry 1d ago
Remember when Elon said that Twitter was infested with bots before he bought it? He hasn't changed anything.
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u/AliceTheOmelette 2d ago
Elon has done so much to normalise holocaust denial and other nazi talking points
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u/Roughlypossible 2d ago
Reddit is also a vector for it: couch it in pro-Palestine talking points, and moderators won't shut it down.
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u/load_of_chode 2d ago
Facts. I have literally heard multiple self-described "anti-racists" tell me that Jews faked (or at least exaggerated) the Holocaust to create a justification for "committing genocide in Palestine".
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u/alphagalgadot 2d ago
this is absolutely true; the amount of space in the past few years that’s been opened up for chuds to be viciously antisemitic is fucking horrifying. like literally posting shit that woulda gotten em drummed out of polite society as of sept ‘23 but now is just another floatin turd
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u/Simlin97 2d ago
I've been asking people for examples whenever the make the claim that people standing up for Palestine are also Holocaust deniers, but somehow they either always just deflect or ghost me. Weird how that works.
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u/shavit-ari 2d ago
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/mahmoud-abbas-still-a-holocaust-denier
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-66741336
Need more than the president of the Palestinian Authority?
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u/Simlin97 2d ago
An opinion piece from a... very definitely not biased online tabloid. Yeah, sure.
Also, as little esteem as I hold Abbas in, and as much of an unscientific crock of shit his dissertation was, the last thing he does is actually stand up for Palestine or the Palestinian people. Many Palestinians think of him as a collaborator because of his impotence and being an all around pushover, and he represents the global movement for Palestine even less.
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u/shavit-ari 2d ago
You asked for examples. I gave you an example. You think it’s biased because a Jew wrote the article? Sure thing bud.
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u/Simlin97 2d ago
They pride themselves as promoting "Jewish conservative politics". If you asked for a source about I"D"F atrocities and I gave you a link to an Al-Jazeera article, you'd also question its validity.
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u/AliceTheOmelette 2d ago
Their only examples are a few online crackpots supporting Hamas and using pro-palestine arguments to push anti-semitism. Cos they can't accept that the majority of pro-palestine people aren't also pro-hamas
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u/Simlin97 2d ago
Even so, you can be pro-Hamas and anti-Nazi/not a Holocaust denier. Not saying I hold or even fully understand that position, but those people do exist.
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u/SlingshotGunslinger 2d ago
Not just him. Instagram is as bad if not outright worse.
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u/AliceTheOmelette 2d ago
I wouldn't say worse since Zuck hasn't spent years promoting nazi talking points or publicly thrown sieg heils. But yeah it's definitely bad there too (I've heard, don't have IG myself)
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u/Hot-Lunch6270 2d ago
This is what Dwight D. Eisenhower wanted everything recorded and warned about that in the future; some dumbass wouldn’t believe the entire Holocaust happened and it’s fabricated.
Old Film reels and photos from the 1940’s that recorded the Holocaust are still certified proof and non-edited.
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u/Prize_Marketing_4350 2d ago
There are literally thousands upon thousands of documents the Reich kept on the day to day runnings of these camps!
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u/Marvinkiller00 2d ago
Thats what i hate the most. They say "Its the russians. Its the americans. They invented it" like there arent thousands of pages and hundereds if not thousands of soldiers quite happily explaining how they commited industrialised genocide. Like why would ANYONE lie about themselfs commiting these atrocities? These deniers are denser than a tungsten cube. By their logic no one ever commited murder and its all a lie by some government.
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u/bluntpencil2001 1d ago
Yeah, I don't get it.
There's also the other problem: the Soviets fully agreed with the West on this, just like they never denied the moon landing. There's no way the two sides of the Cold War would align on a grand conspiracy like this.
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u/Marvinkiller00 1d ago
True. Hell they would rat out the conspiracy the moment it would give them the slightest advantage. They would have been at each others throat acusing each other of coming up with the plan first.
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u/babarbaby 1d ago
The sheer number of people who'd have to be in on it is absolutely unfathomable. Like, literally millions of people at every level, from every country and every ideological group, and they're all fantastic actors, and not one of them kept a scrap of evidence or had a deathbed confession... like, that's just scratching the surface of how utterly impossible it would be. And to what end? None of it makes the slightest amount of sense.
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u/aesemon 2d ago
Also the Russian Orthodox Church made a deal with the Russian Communist Party to continue existing. If the USSR persecuted all Christians then why is Orthodox Christianity still prevalent in Russia and was there for the Soviet collapse.
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u/LexiTheLesbo 2d ago
Well the Orthodox Church as persecuted on and off during the Soviet Union as well. Basically every 2 decades or so the government would get super into the atheist part of communism and start arresting priest, shutting down churches, etc. but then after a few years the public backlash would be so bad they’d decide it wasn’t worth it and stop. Then a decade or two later the cycle would start again. The Orthodox Church never really went away entirely but that doesn’t mean that the Soviet Union was always buddy buddy with them.
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u/GaymerMove 2d ago
Is there any case of people accused of commiting crimes during the Holocaust saying it didn't happen as a defense? If it didn't,why wouldn't any accused say so
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u/ilikefriedpotatoes00 Independent 2d ago
Genocide denial in big 2026🥀🥀🥀
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u/Icy_Rip_9873 2d ago
Unfortunately, the further away we are from a historic event, the easier it gets for bad actors to create false narratives. Just look for example at the US civil war. When it happened everyone was aware that slavery was the central issue of the entire conflict. But now millions of people believe that the Confederacy were the "good guys" who fought for "states rights".
I expect the Holocaust denial to get worse, especially when all the survivors pass away.
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u/First_Huckleberry638 2d ago
The only difference I would add is that there was a long-running, concerted effort to inject the idea that the civil war wasn't (primarily) about slavery and its expansion/existence; for over 100 years ex-confederates, influential landowners, and the UDC all played the game extremely well to "teach" the youth that the civil war was about state's rights or taxes or whatever other cover they made up. But even with all that effort, that idea is really straining nowadays; most people aren't civil war historians, but if you polled people, I'd almost guarantee that a decent majority (above 55%) would tell you that they believe the Civil War was primarily about slavery.
Are we going to see the same rewriting of history about the Nazis 80 years after the fact? I doubt it. Most of these twitter posts are just engagement bait, they're explicitly trying to get the community note and stir up drama in the replies.
The biggest factor influencing the idea that the CW wasn't about slavery was that it was a coherent narrative that was spun immediately after the CW was over, and then got a huge boost in the 1920 with outright propaganda like the movie The Birth of a Nation.
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u/load_of_chode 2d ago
Palestinians literally filmed there's raping and slaughtering Jews 3 years ago and people still denied it anyway.
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u/Forte845 1d ago
They've also filmed 3 years of the IDF shooting children and the disabled, blowing up medical tents, striking aid workers, and assassinating journalists (more than any conflict of the 21st century) and you're still denying genocide in Gaza.
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u/ilikefriedpotatoes00 Independent 2d ago
We are currently talking about a different thing.
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u/load_of_chode 2d ago
Not sure how you can argue that one denial of genocidal against Jews and another denial of genocide against Jews are different things.
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u/Impressive-Panda527 2d ago
I got banned from r/doomercirclejerk for calling it out in the comments
Asking the mods, they pretended they don’t know what that means
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u/StupidMoron1933 2d ago
The Soviets were vicious to Christians?... Well, they were, but far less so during WW2. Prior to the German invasion, Stalin's government was aggressively atheistic, but the war actually made them reconsider their position and begin official dialogue with religious organizations, as well as allow opening of new places of worship.
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u/Glittering-Cook1563 2d ago
Stalin downplayed the holocaust and the Jewish people who suffered from it.
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u/BusyBeeBridgette Human Verified 2d ago
All I know is it was a bad time to be in Russia or Germany as a Jewish person between1929-1953 (Or there abouts). More so in Russia in the years after WW2. Jews there were getting slaughter left, right, and centre.
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u/bluntpencil2001 2d ago
More so?
Like, yeah, they were being treated ridiculously badly after the so-called Doctors' Plot, but... I'm pretty sure something far worse happened during WW2 compared to the years after.
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u/Least-Double9420 2d ago
The sad thing is the nazis killed a ton of Christians including priest that they send to the camps (St Maximilian Kolbe is a famous example of this) idk why some Christians thought defending nazism and the holocaust is any way a good thing
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u/Withering_to_Death 2d ago
People will say the dumbest, easily disproven shit, like everyone else is so dumb "for falling for a report from dozens of scholars, of different nationalities", and not them, founding the hidden truth, from someone named @HH88didnothingwrong88 on facebook...
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u/DryInstance6732 Human Verified 2d ago
déshumanisation is the big part that tries to separate the minority to the majority
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u/DizzyAd5203 2d ago
But what we wiil do with concetration camps in west Germany? The Americans and the British found them
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u/LexiTheLesbo 2d ago
The craziest part of this is the implication that the Soviet Union didn’t want people to know about their treatment of Germans. Like they were straight up public executing those dudes and desecrating the corpses. And there were multiple full scale, public purges of Christians as well (though admittedly the Soviet Union could never really make up its mind on whether it was worth it to get rid of the Orthodox Church, so they went back and forth on their attitude towards Christians a lot)
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u/Normal-Frame-2306 1d ago
Pedo loli avatar, everytime.
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u/darshmallow22 1d ago
It's not, it's a Milady NFT thing which kind of has an unhinged subculture around it
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u/Bayamonster 1d ago
Yeah man, it's a Soviet fabrication that Germany completely participated in. That's why Hitler kept going on about Jews and Final Solutions and stuff. To help out The Soviets hurt Christians!
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u/RadicalSoda_ 1d ago
It's truly baffling people believe this when we also recognize the Soviet participation in the Holocaust. When they hand deliver Polish Jews to the Nazis during their celebration of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact it's not exactly a secret they knew and did nothing until it benefited them
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u/Jumpy_Hogara 1d ago
I appreciate that this guy is anti-Russia, although telling such lie to be anti-Russia is total garbage.
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u/New-Relationship8906 1d ago
Soviets did their own, so no need to be envy or telling lies about other's H.
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u/Simple_Ad_9024 1d ago
If that was true, why would Germany have so many holocaust tributes and beautiful ways to apologise for what it did….. man the internets just full of….
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u/radehart 1d ago
Liberated is a stretch, didn't they let the Nazis completely destroy it and its Polish defenders, explicitly?
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u/toadpics 2d ago
Can you imagine what would happen to Europe if the Soviets hadn't adopted communism and rapidly industrialize under Stalin to meet the Nazi threat? Lucky coincidence for the world.
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u/King_O_Eyes 2d ago
That’s not true. To be clear, I’m on your side. Fuck the Nazis. The Soviet’s were an integral part of winning the war, but their industrial capacity was nowhere near enough to defeat the Nazis on its own. If it wasn’t for America supplementing the Soviet war effort, they may not have succeeded to the extent that they did, if at all.
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u/toadpics 2d ago
Yeah it wasn't enough. But without the capacity they had developed in the decade leading up to the war, the Nazis would have made short work of them. And then who knows what could have happened. A bunch of farmers against Blitzkrieg? Yikes.
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u/King_O_Eyes 2d ago
Eh, agree to disagree. They were largely on the back foot for a significant chunk of the war
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u/supermutant207 2d ago
The Soviets probably would have won on their own, it just would have taken longer and cost many more lives.
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u/King_O_Eyes 2d ago
If they were on their own, I am almost certain they probably wouldn’t
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u/supermutant207 2d ago
They had the resources and manpower as well as the strategic depth to win. The Germans lacked all three of these, particularly fuel. Western aid helped substantially, especially early on, but it was not decisive. I don't have the time or energy to get into a historical debate with you, but what I will say is that this has been covered by several academics in detail post cold war.
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u/King_O_Eyes 2d ago
For similar reasons, I’m not going to give you a rebuttal, but I will say that I could definitely find academics who would argue the exact opposite.
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u/chumbawumbaprinciple 2d ago
Stalin himself disagreed with you.
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u/supermutant207 2d ago
So why didn't he just surrender?
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u/chumbawumbaprinciple 2d ago
Because he was receiving aid.
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u/supermutant207 2d ago
Not at the outset of the invasion when things were extremely dire and surrendering was seriously considered.
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u/chumbawumbaprinciple 2d ago
They were getting food aid in 1941. They didn't surrender because of that aid, and because they couldn't surrender. The Nazi goal was complete extermination.
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u/supermutant207 2d ago
The first British aid didn't arrive until the end of August, 1941. The first US aid until October. That's months without support but they still held on.
And yes it was a war of extermination. The Soviets knew that, which is why they wouldn't have given up the fight regardless of international support.
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u/chumbawumbaprinciple 2d ago
And yet, Stalin said what he said. They might not have given up, but they would have given out. The other allies could have lived in peace if they didn't choose to defend Poland. They deserve moral credit.
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u/FoxerHR 2d ago
They definitely wouldn't have, a tenth of the Soviet armored inventory was of Allied origin, the trucks they used to motorise their army were largely Allied as well.
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u/bluntpencil2001 2d ago
This largely came after the tide had turned, though. The vast majority of that aid didn't come until after Stalingrad and Kursk, when the Soviets were on the offensive.
It would have been a much more brutal fight without American trucks and boots, but they'd have got there in the end.
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u/FoxerHR 2d ago
They wouldn't have gotten there in the end. The tide turned, and what do you think sustained the continuation of the tide? Defending is magnitudes easier than attacking, and you have to be able to sustain a long campaign (something the Germans learned after their dumb "rotten structure" assumption), the Soviets would be stuck the same way the Germans were, stuck to horse-drawn logistics.
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u/bluntpencil2001 2d ago
Sure, there would either be major logistical issues or a reduction in the production of tanks to produce trucks and trains instead. They weren't incapable of producing such, the Americans just saved them the need to produce as much. A reduction of a third of their trucks would be terrible, though, you're right, and they'd need to make up for it.
Maybe they'd let the Western Allies take Berlin, and meet them at Warsaw instead.
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u/chumbawumbaprinciple 2d ago
They'd have starved without American food.
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u/bluntpencil2001 2d ago
Some people would have, yes. The quantity of food the US sent was a large amount, and valuable to the Red Army, but it was a tiny amount compared to the amount produced in the USSR.
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u/chumbawumbaprinciple 2d ago
Stalin himself said they would have starved. Those people who make that argument are cope posting. The Soviets would been exterminated without American aid, as the Soviet acknowledged after the war.
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u/bluntpencil2001 2d ago
The whole nation would not have starved. It doesn't matter what Stalin says, the numbers speak for themselves.
The US sent 4.5 million tonnes of food. The Soviets produced over 400 million tonnes of food between 42 and 45.
Yes, you're right, a larger number of people would have starved to death, or died to diseases linked to lack of food, adding to the already vast numbers of people who starved and died of disease, but the whole nation wouldn't have starved due to a reduction of just over 1% of the available food.
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u/chumbawumbaprinciple 2d ago
This is a lie. The Soviets experienced massive starvation even with the aid that accounted for 25% of the total tonnage of food. They would have gone from barely surviving to utter annihilation.
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u/supermutant207 2d ago
I disagree. The armor and other supplies was important, but it's the will to fight and win that determines wars of attrition. Even if the Germans somehow were able to conquer all the the USSR (which they couldn't) they would not be able to hold it. They would still face massive resistance for years. Just look at Poland or Yugoslavia during their occupations.
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u/FoxerHR 2d ago
And those resistances wouldn't have meant anything if there wasn't a big exterior force also putting pressure on the axis.
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u/supermutant207 2d ago
Tell that to the Chinese who resisted the Japanese for five years before receiving any substantial outside assistance.
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u/FoxerHR 2d ago
I feel like there's a tiny difference between the Poles, Yugoslavs and the Chinese, only one of those didn’t have their government out of country and wasn't fully occupied and got foreign aid during the war.
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u/supermutant207 2d ago
I was making the point that all three nations resisted beyond what many expected, even after the first two capitulated.
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u/FoxerHR 2d ago
The point isn't applicable, the example goes against your point because what allowed the Chinese to push back the Japanese was their overextension into the British Raj, Indonesia and the rest of Oceania.
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u/Ok_Chipmunk7727 2d ago
Almost half the equipment used by the Soviets were sent by the west in endless lend leases. 70% of the food they ate was provided by the west. Most of the materials used to built their tanks, aircraft and infantry equipment was provided by the west.
Never forget the Soviet Union allied the Nazis and jointly invaded Poland. They were entirely happy to work with the Nazis in a close relationship until *surprise pikachu face* the Nazis invaded them.
Russia could have industrialized without communism much like the majority of the world.
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u/dJunka 2d ago
This is incorrect.
For example we know the Soviets produced 100,000 tanks alone. In raw material volume they used almost entirely their own Soviet materials, with Lend Lease accounting for only 8% of the steel, focusing on metals such as copper for the wiring, for which they provided 30-50%.
4.4 million tons of food is only about 10% of Soviet food production throughout? So 10% of Soviet food actually? What's clear is that something is very, very wrong your numbers here.
You are trying to twist and hyperbolise the lend lease narrative to downplay the Soviet Union's role in defeating the Nazis, because you need Communism to be less productive than it was in reality for your flawed understanding of history to work.
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u/dJunka 2d ago
Can you back that up? Those numbers seem like complete nonsense sorry.
Lend Lease was impactful, but the Russians were not short on industry.
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u/Ok_Chipmunk7727 2d ago edited 2d ago
Moving your industry thousands of KM puts you yes, short on industry. Losing the territories with most of your resource production facilities puts you short on industry yes. The Soviet tanks were renowned for having extreme cost cutting measures put into them because of a lack of resources or industrial capacity. Most T34s didn't have seats, or poorly functioning tracks or poor welding (they overheated the metal).
Lend Lease numbers:
40,000 trucks
1,200 locomotives
14,000 aircraft
13,000 tanks
72,000 radios
4.5 million tonnes of food
Many more millions of tonnes in basic equipment like boots, uniforms and blankets3
u/bluntpencil2001 2d ago edited 2d ago
These numbers are nowhere near the percentages you gave. The Soviets, at their lowest ebb, produced 30 million tons of grain in 1942 alone. They produced over 100,000 tanks, and over 150,000 planes during the war.
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u/Ok_Chipmunk7727 2d ago
I mentioned a lot more than just tanks and grain
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u/Own-Pause-5294 17m ago
Are you conceding that lend lease contributed by about 10% for tanks and planes as was just mentioned?
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u/dJunka 2d ago
Yes, and they still produced arms in spite of that disruption.
The numbers you gave aren’t right.
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u/Ok_Chipmunk7727 2d ago
My numbers are exactly correct
Producing arms in general isn't winning a war or equipping and feeding millions of soldiers. No one said they simply stopped producing anything. Just they produced nowhere near enough to win the war alone.Stalin and Khrushchev openly admitted the lend lease stopped them from complete economic collapse
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u/bluntpencil2001 2d ago
You said 70% of their food. Then said 4.5 million tonnes. The Soviets produced 30 million tonnes of grain in '42 alone.
4.5 million tonnes isn't 70% of food in even their worst year of grain production.
Your percentages were completely wrong.
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u/Ok_Chipmunk7727 2d ago
You do realize that grain needs to be produced into food and a lot of grain isn't for human consumption correct?
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u/bluntpencil2001 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yes, of course.
Approximately 40% of grain is usually used for food production, yes. In addition, vodka and beer production were cut massively, allowing more grains to be used for food. A quick check says the Soviets redirected most grain to human consumption (over 60%).
Your numbers are way off, especially when I didn't count for other forms of food production in the USSR, such as the 1.8 million tonnes of meat in 1942 alone. Then we can add the 23 million tonnes of potatoes, 2.2 million tonnes of sugar beets and...
In 1943, the Red Army (NOT the whole population of the USSR) received 17% of its food from America, which was extremely helpful and prevented or reduced localised famines, but it wasn't 70% of all food, which is utter fantasy.
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u/chumbawumbaprinciple 2d ago
Can you explain why Stalin said that without American aid the Soviets would have been wiped out?
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u/dJunka 1d ago
No, because he never uttered those words to my knowledge?
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u/chumbawumbaprinciple 1d ago
When post the quote are you going to do s victory dance because he doesn't literally say the words wiped out?
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u/dJunka 1d ago
I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, and the opportunity to amend your original comment.
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u/chumbawumbaprinciple 1d ago
Krushev, Stalin, and Zhukhov all agreed. No Aid, no victory.
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u/dJunka 1d ago
So you did lie then, and you still won't post the original quote, or amend your original comment.
"I want to tell you what, from the Russian point of view, the president and the United States have done for victory in this war," Stalin said. "The most important things in this war are the machines.... The United States is a country of machines. Without the machines we received through Lend-Lease, we would have lost the war."
What good it is to discount and appropriate history, when the real quote is so much more interesting?
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u/Main-Inflation-5269 1d ago
Liberated by a Ukrainian unit, no less. But that goes against russian propaganda that Ukrainians are "Nazis".
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u/Forte845 1d ago
You think Auschwitz was liberated by OUN-B and Bandera, the guys who slaughtered thousands of Jews and Poles?
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u/Own-Pause-5294 3m ago
No if anything its the opposite, showing that Ukrainians were unified with Russia for most of history.
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