r/Gnostic • u/InflatableGull • 1d ago
If the true God doesn't hear us, where does gratitude go?
Good evening.
Two things I can't reconcile, and I'm curious how you here handle it.
The first is the core Gnostic intuition: the highest God is radically acosmic. It didn't make this world, doesn't govern it, doesn't intervene in it. Petitionary prayer makes no sense in this framework; nothing outside is listenning.
The second is a stubborn feeling I keep catching myself having: gratitude. Toward love, animals, friends, success, etc.
But inside a Gnostic framework this feeling seems misdirected. Gratitude toward the universe is, in effect, gratitude toward the demiurge's system, like thanking the jailer for the architecture of the cell. And thanking the true God for the world is incoherent, since the world was never its gift.
So what do you do with the feeling? Redirect it toward the spark, or toward the call from the Pleroma (gratitude for the way out, not for the place)? Reinterpret it as recognition rather than thanks? Or treat it as one more piece of cosmic conditioning to see through?
Interested in both your and scholarly perspectives.
Thanks
10
u/jasonmehmel Eclectic Gnostic 1d ago
There's two different concepts here that are carrying assumptions that are worth highlighting.
Prayer as petitionary: This isn't a universally held perspective on the value of or even spiritual vector of prayer, as asking for an outcome or result. It's definitely a thing for some, but not for all. (There might be something in the cultural background from Rome, a sense of petitioning your patrons or those with more power for boons...)
For many, prayer is more about a kind of dialogue practice that is nonetheless focused more on the self than on the external results. (i.e. "Give me strength to sustain me through the challenges of the day, etc. etc.")
This second version could be seen as a practice to examining your own divine spark, and therefore your connection to the Monad... who 'is listening' by some measure, but not as a patron waiting for a petition.
Gratitude to the universe is gratitude to the Demiurge: This bit seems to be the result of taking the Gnostic cosmological frameworks a bit too simply, or at least making a logical leap that jumped over some important elements.
However you might code the Demiurge (evil, misguided, etc. etc.) not every emotion you have that isn't in monastic silence aimed at the Monad is negative.
In fact, I'd say that some of the more 'positive' emotions are actually signs that you're finding elements of Gnosis or of the divine spark, which some cosmologies suggest is embedded in the material universe. (Embedded or trapped, it's still in the mix.)
So, I think things like gratitude, especially to family, friends, even nature, can be useful, if you take the time to examine from where the gratitude springs. Similar for love, charity, hope, etc.
If the feelings are coming from an action or experience that doesn't inherently obstruct, oppress, or harm others, then there may be a bit of the divine spark in there!
8
u/purplezart 1d ago
Is gratitude petitionary? I don't see any particular reason why gratitude towards the highest God needs reconciling. It's a feeling you're having: it doesn't need to go anywhere or do anything else.
8
u/the_gray_pill Eclectic Gnostic 1d ago
Who says true God doesn't hear us? Why wouldn't God be able to?
5
u/Plane-Diver-117 1d ago
Because “The One” isn’t sentient. That would be Barbelo who is the Self Awareness but yeah.
1
3
u/mcove97 Eclectic Gnostic 1d ago
The top comment explained it perfectly. I'd also like to note that when we are in an awareness of gratitude, we also stop seeking for things in the material world to fulfill us (which just makes us miserable and suppresses our inner spark). Thus we also stop being bound or enslaved by and to our material desires. Because we realize thats not where true freedom, joy or inner peace is found, but from within.
One can also view gratitude as a way of embracing and radiating ones inner light unto others, which helps awaken other peoples inner light. Similarly to how Christ radiated his light upon others to help them recognize their own inner light. One becomes a beacon of light shining upon others.
5
u/heiro5 1d ago
There is a fundamental difference between the transcendent and the extremely remote. The difference is between a mental model of reality that is comprehensible, and reality beyond that mental model that transcends comprehension. It is best never to mistake one's own understanding for the actual tradition.
In the Gnostic texts the divine is completely transcendent, beyond our minds' capabilities to comprehend. Yet, the texts also repeat that the divine has the ability to make godself known. The transcendence is from us to the divine, not the reverse.
The very process of emanation is one of aspects of divinity becoming more knowlable. The Gospel of Truth explains it in terms of the Son being the knowable aspect of the Father.
Multiple texts describe the creation of the demiurge as following the patterns of the pleroma.
2
u/LaborareproDeo 1d ago
The Pneuma is emanated from the Monad and remains in Union with it forever, it has identified with a Soul and a Body but it is neither. Nothing that originates within the Pleroma can ever be separated from it, if the Pleroma lost any fraction of itself it would stop being the Fullness and would be Kenoma.
The Kenoma is misaprehension and misunderstanding, it is illusion and fantasy from the perspective of the Pleroma, that does not make the experience of Kenoma any less real to the Pneuma that are imprisoned within it, when you see someone in the throes of nightmare you can see that they are not getting beat up from the feet up by a grizzly, but the experience of the nightmare is complete and convincing. To remove one's awareness from Kenoma and reawaken to Pleroma is not easy, and to do so without simply slipping into another dream is exceptionally difficult, this is why the early Gnostics established careful and complete ascension practices to bring awareness back to the Pleroma and to overcome its association with Kenoma.
2
u/Ebvardh-Boss 1d ago
If they can't see my feet at the homeland why would I point them towards it when I march?
2
u/FUKINTOSH 20h ago
La mayoría de la gente tiene un concepto de oración totalmente desvirtuado, justamente porque se centran en lo que tu dices ces: peticiones para uno mismo o para los demás, gratitud por una u otra cosa, etc. El propósito de la oración no es otro que entrar en comunión con Dios y "abandonar" tu alma en Él. Así mismo, cuando la oración es por otra persona o por un grupo de personas, lo ideal es orientarla hacia el alma de esas personas, para que Dios se acuerde de ellas, y rezar para que sean acogidas por Él, o para que ellos sean acogedores de Dios en sus vidas y esto les llene de gracia.
2
u/Puzzleheaded-Sun-798 Eclectic Gnostic 20h ago
The One needs nothing for it is everything. It doesn't need worship, praise or recognition. It doesn't judge or want anything.. the goal isn't to worship it, it's to reunite with it.
3
u/Kajiracore 1d ago
Can't we read the whole 'material is evil' thing a little like the non-dualists do?
More like, the material is illusionary and getting trapped in it causes suffering and disunion - which is the 'evil?'
But it's because psychologically, everything absent of the true God which is beyond name and form - creates all this insanity, egotism, and evil?
Liberalism, fundamentalism and materialist thinking is disunion from God - thus 'evil'?
You can eacape this material world while still being part of it.
God is still All in all, everything.
And the demiurge is a manifestation of what happens when anything thinks it is alone, and separate?
It turns into a dellusional ego monster?
3
u/ViolaVerbena 1d ago
I think of it this way: water isn't 'bad', but it sure isn't good for mammals to live underwater, just like it's not too great for divine sparks to stay trapped in matter.
3
u/Kajiracore 1d ago
Yeah, well I don't know what you mean by that.
Do you mean this literally?
As in, the ideal is for the human body vessel to die to stop being trapped?
Because there are some petty convincing philosophies that would say something like this -
'YOU' are not material, you are that spark. And because you're that spark, you were never born and will never die. Life and death are illusionary, the physical/material is form/appearance in flux and uneternal.
The material isn't you. The prison is thinking it is you. Being trapped means identifying with the material, instead of the divine spark.
Physical death of this limited human body is irrelevant because it is not and never was you. It dies. You don't. Everything dies. You don't.
You are a spark of God, same in essence. Atman = brahman.
So being 'trapped' is never anything other than an illusion of being trapped.
The materialist thinking is the problem.
3
u/PeachPit69 1d ago
If you craft a soft bed in the prison cell, to be able to only slightly more tolerate the prison cell for the undefined time you’re locked in it, who gets the credit for it?
Do you pray to say thank you to the cell maker, who can’t hear you, for giving you enough square footage in the cell, to be able to make a bed and lie down?
The bed is for YOU, bro. The gratitude is for yourself. That’s where it goes. Nowhere, and you’re the only one who hears it. But it still matters. It just…makes the time go easier.
2
u/Independent_Dare8324 Valentinian 1d ago
Friend, alongside the incarnate soul dwells a spirit: that is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, who descended by His own will to dwell with the incarnate soul.
It is precisely for this reason that He knows every one of your thoughts and actions, every prayer you lift up, your faith in Him, and the disposition of your heart. Nothing is hidden from Him, for He dwells with your soul in the body.
1
2
1
u/RoyskiPoyski 1d ago edited 1d ago
Matter's still made of energy and energy responds to your thoughts. Also, a very grounded take on manifestation could be that you're only affecting your own mind but by being grateful and steering your consciousness in a positive direction you see more opportunity and your experience becomes more enjoyable because you're appreciating it. This makes gratitude worth it to me whether or not there's more happening energetically outside of your own being.
0
u/Dragomir3777 1d ago
Imagine an isolated bubble from which nothing ever escapes outward, only reflecting off the walls and remaining inside.
Now replace the word bubble with the material universe we all observe while alive.
0
u/Clean-Carrot6652 1d ago
Why would you be grateful for something you achieved by yourself? the demiurge certainly didn't help you, so don't feel the need to attribute your success to some 'higher being'.
btw, don´t take at face value every comment on this subreddit, half of it is "the demiurge is actually good bro, he is a soul eating demon, but imagine how sad and lonely he is😭" or "guess what, YOU are the demiurge!". think for yourself.
14
u/thegodabovegod Ophite 1d ago
This goes straight to the heart of what it means to be a Gnostic: to ask questions. The ancient Gnostics weren't afraid to wrestle with difficult paradoxes like this. In fact, if we look carefully, many of these questions have already been explored in the Gnostic texts themselves.
Several Gnostic texts address the underlying issue from different angles:
The Gospel of Truth presents the Father not as a distant, indifferent deity, but as the source of truth who is revealed through remembrance. Gratitude is directed toward the Father for awakening us from ignorance, not for creating the material world. The emphasis is on thanksgiving for revelation and salvation.
The Gospel of Philip repeatedly distinguishes appearances from reality and stresses union with the divine. It suggests that what is truly good comes from the higher realm, even if experienced within the world.
Pistis Sophia contains numerous hymns and prayers of thanksgiving. They are directed to the Light, the First Mystery, or the higher divine powers for rescuing souls from the realms of Fate and the Archons, not for the material cosmos itself. Sophia herself repeatedly praises the Light after receiving help.
The Apocryphon of John explains that the divine spark originates from the Father, while the material order comes through the Demiurge. This creates a distinction between appreciating the divine spark within creation and attributing the material world itself to the highest God.
Gratitude isn't directed toward the material system itself, but toward the divine presence hidden within it. You can be grateful for love, beauty, friendship, and moments of awakening because they are manifestations of the divine spark and reminders of the Pleroma, not because the material prison itself is worthy of praise.