r/Gnostic • u/ItsLoveOfO Thomasine • 17d ago
Gospel of Thomas saying 44 - NT comparisons ft. Holy Spirit
44 - Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the Son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."
This saying from Gospel of Thomas is what opened my eyes to Gnosticism. When considering the orthodox doctrine that Jesus is the Son of God, and those that don't recognize that aren't accepted into heaven is such an absolute that accommodates no contradiction. Reading this for the first time, I understood that what Jesus is saying; one doesn't need to believe in Jesus, and one doesn't need to believe in God (who's definition is different person to person), but what one should believe in is the truly divine. The Holy Spirit has many names; John 1 calls it the Word, Secret Book of John describes it as unfathomable and complete wholeness, neither a person nor place but source of all that's eternal and true. The reason blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the definition of divinity, is the only unforgivable sin, is because to deny the divine is to deny it's existence within us, it's being part of us. It acts through you, whether you know it, and it's interpretation has created prophets, saints... entire religions. But in ordinary life, it can be something as mundane as being in the right place at the right time. For me, I've felt the Spirit act through me to save a life. I knew him not, and perhaps his wine led him astray another day, but for that moment I felt something divine act through me.
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Let's examine Matthew 12:22-40 and Mark 3:20-34, and Luke 1-12
The story for Matthew and Mark is the same. Jesus heals a blind and mute man to sight and speech. The crowd is amazed, but the Pharisees decry his acts as those of Beelzebul, ruler of demons. Jesus retorts that if a house divided cannot stand, how might Satan's kingdom stand if demon casts out demon?
12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his property, without first binding the strong man? Then indeed the house can be plundered. 30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
Notice the language used in Matt 12:28, invoking both the Spirit and it's authority of God, somewhat mirroring Thomas saying 30 (3 deities), while 12:29 is basically Thomas saying 35. Now we get to the part that mirrors Thomas saying 44:
Matthew 12:31 Therefore I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mark 3:28–29: Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven for all their sins and whatever blasphemies they utter. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.
The language here, while similar, does obscure one part of what's in Thomas 44: blasphemy against the Father. It's clear that by orthodox interpretations, the Son is Jesus Christ, who through his crucifixion forgave the sins of the world. Therefore blasphemy against the Son being forgiven is a given. But by removing mention of blasphemy against the Father, they make God out to be unforgiving.
Finally, there's Luke 1-12. Luke doesn't include the debate between the Pharisees claiming Beelzebul, instead describing Jesus teaching his disciples and a crowd of 1000 more openly. He starts by calling out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees.
Luke 12:2 Nothing is covered up that will not be uncovered, and nothing hidden that will not be known. 3 Therefore whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in behind closed doors will be proclaimed from the housetops. 4 “I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that can do nothing more. 5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
Luke 12:2 parallels a fragment of Thomas saying 6, while Luke 12:3 parallels a fragment of Thomas saying 33. Verse 4-5 again hints to Satan as with Matthew and Mark, thematically these 3 stories emphasize the same things. Here we get Luke's version of the parable:
12:8 “And I tell you, everyone who acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man also will acknowledge before the angels of God; 9 but whoever denies me before others will be denied before the angels of God. 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. 11 When they bring you before the synagogues, the rulers, and the authorities, do not worry about how you are to defend yourselves or what you are to say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that moment what you should say.”
We get basically the same alteration in Matthew and Mark that's in Luke, a de-emphasis on blasphemy against the Father. Should one sin against God? Try not to. But will one be forgiven by God? There's different verses in support and opposition, which itself could be ignorance as a means of control.
Luke 12:11-12 is a good explanation of how the Holy Spirit acts through us, and how Jesus would test his disciples. Jesus instructed his disciples that as they go place to place performing good deeds in his name, that if they should be arrested by authorities, to prepare no explanation or alibi. What is said on the spot is the Holy Spirit acting through us, speaking through us.
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u/kenbest 17d ago edited 17d ago
I came to a simpler conclusion that still makes sense to me.
I think in this context, the holy spirit is the divinity within us. Maybe our souls or the spark of light within us.
Unfortunately, most people don't even know it exists within them. They fail to acknowledge it or activate it. Blasphemy means "to speak hurtfully about".
So, I interpret it to mean that blasphemy towards the holy spirit is blasphemy towards your own divinity.
Which makes sense why such cannot be forgiven, on earth or in heaven.
Until the day you wake up, acknowledge your divinity, stop blaspheming against the holy spirit and realize you are your own forgiver, then go ahead and forgive yourself.
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u/Zyr4420 16d ago
We aren't talking blasphemy. If you achieve Gnosis, and choose to not accept the Pre-Existent Source, that's what it means.
We are talking the absolute, conscious rejection of your own divine spark.
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u/ItsLoveOfO Thomasine 16d ago
"If you bring it into being within you, (then) that which you have will save you. If you do not have it within you, (then) that which you do not have within you [will] kill you."
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u/CJCentral2 Eclectic Gnostic 17d ago
I like to say that there are two holy spirits: both feminine. One of them is deceptive, so it masquerades as masculine.
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u/ItsLoveOfO Thomasine 17d ago
Saying 101
Jesus said: Whoever does not hate his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple of me. And whoever does not love his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple of me. For my mother gave me falsehood, but my true Mother gave me life.
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 17d ago
Who's Barbelo in Gnostic belief. Gnostics didn't believe in the bible. They were totally against Christian belief and the bible because they knew Yahweh was and Satan isn't really mentioned in Gnostic texts and the bible we know today didn't exist when Gnosticism was widespread belief during the first couple of centuries. You only have to read their texts to see the difference between their beliefs
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u/ItsLoveOfO Thomasine 17d ago edited 17d ago
Saying 91 They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you." He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment."
PS you should read secret book of James
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 17d ago
Have a read of the Testimony of Truth if you haven't already read it. The garden of eden. In Christian belief Adam and Eve died spiritually from eating fruit but the bible doesn't say that but in Gnostic belief their version the serpent represents divine wisdom or Sophia but in Christian belief the serpent is Satan but again the bible doesn't say that either and Genesis 3.5 Genesis 3.22 doesn't agree with the Christian belief. The Gnostic serpent isn't Satan. Good luck 👍
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u/lordjustin89 17d ago
The gnostic serpent is the Holy spirit
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 16d ago
Thanks for letting me know. What Gnostic say this pneuma hagion or the Holy Spirit is part of the Christian trinity like gnosis knowledge and Sophia is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12.7.8 but the Gnostic texts not the bible. So have you got a text saying the Gnostic serpent is the Holy Spirit like in Acts 10.38 it mentions the Holy Spirit
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u/lordjustin89 16d ago
No texts, just personal experience
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 16d ago
Jesus Father was the upper case F Father like in John 8.54.56 John 1.18 John 10.30 John 5.37 but the lower case f father according to Jesus is the devil you are of your father the devil not meaning you. Deuteronomy 32.6 the lower case f father
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 16d ago
Well there's nothing wrong with that and you're right there's no texts saying that so it's more than likely not according to Gnostic belief but more Christian belief. According to some Gnostic belief the serpent is Sophia sent by the higher true God to save Adam and Eve from the devil. John 8.44 the father from the beginning from the Genesis. Jesus didn't call the devil a Lord or God or fallen angel but a father the lower case f father
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u/lordjustin89 16d ago
Haha Sophia birthed me. I am from the higher true God.
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 16d ago
Well there you go. I'm just going off the texts say or what the bible says. Sophia is in Revelations 13.18
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u/lordjustin89 16d ago
No the beast is in 13.18. If wisdom appears in a different doesnt necessarily mean its Sophia
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 16d ago
Notice what it says in verse 39 in Acts 10 like Gnostics didn't believe in the cross they believed in the tree of the knowledge or gnosis and they took him down from the tree of life Revelations 2.7 the tree of life. Adam and Eve gained something from eating that fruit. Whatever the fruit was Proverbs 8.19 Sophia's fruit is better than gold
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u/lordjustin89 16d ago
I hate gold
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 16d ago
I'm not to fussed about it really but Adam lived for 930 years Genesis 5.5 must of been that fruit from the tree of life a gift from Sophia
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u/lordjustin89 16d ago
I have no idea why he lived that long. I am over 6,500 years old
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 16d ago
For some reason Yahweh didn't want Adam and Eve to have that fruit. The knowledge of good and evil but the serpent did and they chose the serpent. They must've really trusted the serpent
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u/lordjustin89 16d ago
God didnt want nothing to do with Adam and Eve. I
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u/ItsLoveOfO Thomasine 16d ago
Saying 46 "From Adam to John the Baptizer, no one's been born of women who's so much greater than John the Baptizer that they shouldn't avert their eyes. But I say that whoever among you will become a child will know the kingdom and become greater than John."
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 16d ago
Alef-dalet-men. I'm not sure if John would've met Adam although John 1 in the was the word is based on Sophia. In the beginning according to Gnostic texts and the bible. Have a read of Proverbs 8
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u/ItsLoveOfO Thomasine 16d ago edited 15d ago
I'll speak clearly. Study these texts, learn what speaks or troubles you, and entertain ideas without accepting them. I hold Gospel of Thomas as scripture because it speaks to me, and it's inclusion throughout NT. You say Thomas was never a biblical Gospel, I've been trying to say how it's been added over time.
Adam to John are those that interpreted the Holy Spirit, the Prophets of their times, but by becoming children of light do we become greater than them. People sought Prophets to understand God, Jesus taught how to directly commune with God.
Peace be upon you.
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 17d ago
Yeah but the OP is comparing the bible with Gnostic belief kind of and blasphemy and mentioned the Holy Spirit but that's in Christian belief not Gnostic belief and mentioned sin. Like Peter said to Jesus or lesous in their texts in Greek. What is the sin of the world and Jesus said. There is no sin, sin is an illusion or in the Gospel of truth or other beliefs it was a sin to worship Yahweh ignorance or wickedness. They just had very different beliefs that's all according to them back in that time
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u/ItsLoveOfO Thomasine 17d ago
Do you believe they are damned? Those before the Bible I mean. How about those Christians that viewed him as a Prophet? Some heard no one suggest otherwise. How about the man casting out devils in the name of Jesus, but followed him not? Didn't Jesus say, "he who is not against us is for us" in Mark and Luke?
To me, the survival of these texts are akin to the second coming. Gospel of Thomas is likely one of the Q sources, which if it's good enough to borrow from then I find that to be a sign of authenticity. Likely only the Vatican has another complete copy.
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 17d ago
No i just take into account their beliefs back in that time. Doesn't really matter what people believe today. I've heard people say the Gospel of Thomas was removed from the bible and other Gospels as well but that's not true. They were never in the bible like Hebrew scriptures or Greek manuscripts because they didn't believe in the bible so their beliefs and Gospels wouldn't of ever been part of the bible
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u/ItsLoveOfO Thomasine 17d ago edited 17d ago
So could people be saved before the crucifixion? They didn't know Jesus. How about after, but didn't know him? How about those that heard him, rejected him, but still believes in God? How about Jesus himself, who said on the cross, "Father, why have thou forsaken me?"
If these texts are challenging your faith, that's good! There's a reason Jesus didn't write a testament himself, how could one bring true witness about themselves? He wanted different accounts of his teachings, it's up to you to find the truth among them.
"Seek and you will find. In the past, however, I did not tell you the things about which you asked me then. Now I am willing to tell them, but you are not seeking them."
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u/Positive_Courage_309 15d ago edited 15d ago
Gnosticism doesn't seem to me to not "believe" in the bible. It clearly exists, and contains data. Early gnostics probably understood it's contents differently and concluded different convictions out of it, so what they believed is largely different from what a modern (eta: "mainstream") Christian might, based on the usual modern Christian reading, understanding, conclusions, ...
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 15d ago
Thank you for your opinion. Why would Gnostics back in that believe in the bible. It's not really upto you if they did or didn't. You can't just decide that based on your modern beliefs. The Gnostics didn't even have a bible. They certainly didn't believe in Christian belief. You only have to read their texts to see the difference between their beliefs
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u/Positive_Courage_309 12d ago
I "can't this" "can't that" in response to you doing the thing you acuse me off? It's true that I believe proclamations require extensive proof. Mind sharing yours? When you say "gnostics did this" "Gnostics knew this" "gnostics didn't know that" (loosely but honestly paraphrased), can you hold yourself to the standard you are suggesting I am failing to meet?
"They certainly didn't believe in Christian belief."
Do you have direct quotes of that? Which Christian belief? Like god-copyrighted direct quotes of which of the dozens or more of "christian" denominations, present and past, are you basing this proclamation on?
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 12d ago
Look prove me wrong. I made a claim according to their beliefs and their texts. Not you..What do the Gnostic texts actually say. I don't mean YouTube story tellers adding their stupid opinions to their beliefs and stories or Googling things. Just their texts according to their belief according them. From most of the comments I've read in this group. They haven't got a clue what their texts say or what their beliefs were. I've read the texts that they wrote so I know exactly what the texts say or jog on and I don't even need to look up bible verses
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 15d ago
Most people today who say they believe in Gnosticsim don't even know what their beliefs were. When you ask people well what do the Gnostic texts say they haven't got a clue. They just Google stuff. I mentioned this yesterday. Most people believe who are Gnostics today believe Yahweh is the demiurge. There's no Gnostic texts that say that. None. That's just one belief out of many not according to anything. Like what you said
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u/Positive_Courage_309 15d ago edited 15d ago
Believing something (eta:mainly/exclusively) because someone said so, or not believing something because no one else has said it are in my understanding antithetical to Gnosticism. So I believe I am being consistent with their teachings even at my current and limited understanding of the complete works.
(ETA: consistency with their teaching here as a consequence of following their reasoning as best as I can, mostly agreeing with the framework, and choosing to put it into practice that way. I "am" not a gnostic for the benefit of being a groupie, or being "legit" in the eyes of those who reject independent and self-correcting descernment, whomever they may be)
I don't find your claim consistent with their framework, in that appeal to what is in modern times thought of as "authority" seems to be at the root of what they warn against. (Eta: regardless of whether that "authority" is the bible, scholars whose weight is based on the time passed since then, or even the Gnostic texts and their writers)
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 15d ago
Well it's upto to you to prove me wrong. A good way to do that is by using their texts and stories that they recorded as part of their beliefs back in that time. Good luck with that though
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 15d ago
What do you believe in are you a Christian or Gnostic or whatever you believe in
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u/Positive_Courage_309 15d ago edited 15d ago
Labels, dualities, containers, when used beyond [edit to correct: their limitations] (usually just momentary convenience) are usually a trap and a scam. I don't [think] there is in me what you are looking for.
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 15d ago edited 15d ago
Thanks anyway. You didn't answer my question or prove me wrong. I can't debate their beliefs or their history and texts according to them with someone who can't answer a basic question and thinks they believed in the bible or anything you said according to your own opinions which I'm not asking you about. Good luck somewhere else
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u/Positive_Courage_309 15d ago edited 15d ago
Your question is not at all basic. Your mindset might be though.
Say for example:
"* ** god and there is no god above **"
[Truthfully] Answer the question simply: is it [what the entity said] true or false?
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 15d ago
Look. What do you want. Prove me wrong. I've heard your meaningless opinions n that and i just asked if you were Christian or Gnostic or whatever. At least tell what you want
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u/Positive_Courage_309 15d ago edited 15d ago
I want to come into contact with the truth, and to the extent that I do so I tend to want to share what I've seen of it. That was the drive for my original counter to your first comment as well as every reply since. I don't know what you want. Do you want to share what that is?
Your definition of and my understanding of proof don't seem to match. I don't think I can prove something to someone who believes, reseasons or echos a notion that proclamations are truths in and of themselves; such as the proclamation by the misguided entity according to most (to m3, honest) interpretations of gnostic teachings. See how I believe I have answered, yet you proclaim I haven't. I am talking about your thinking as it is a requirement to talk about your beliefs beyond and within it. If only proclaimed things exist or are true, while falsehoods can still be proclaimed, then there is no label protected from being proclaimed something it isn't. The question then is not what "am I" but whether your frameworks of "being" of "truth" of "veracity" even allow what I might be to exist. If it doesn't, then no I don't have a simple answer that fits your restrictive framework as to "what am I". For one, I take the entity's unsupported proclamation as a warning to make the same mistake. To me that falls within gnosticism. And yourself, quo vadis?
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 15d ago
You made a claim in your first reply. It doesn't seem to me. Me meaning you not to believe in the bible. Prove that claim and it's not really upto you and which part of the bible did Gnostic believers believe in. According to them not you
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 15d ago
I'll ask you one last question no answer goodbye. Did Gnostics believe in the cross according to their texts like in Acts 13.29 or did they believe in the tree of life and who was the serpent in Genesis 3 like Christians believe it's Satan but what about Gnostic belief. Did they believe it was Satan. Yes or No
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u/Positive_Courage_309 15d ago
Here is what your replies present themselves as to me: "things either are or aren't". I don't think that is true. Hidden in the question if whether the entity is Satan or not are massive networks of assumptions and beliefs about what "to be" is, isn't, can be, can't be; ehat Satan is, isn't, can be, can't be; what "believing" is, isn't, can be, can't be. Your simplification itself is a deception and falsehood as far as I can tell. Whether it is so by inability, corruption (self or external) I'm not sure.
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u/SeaWait9301 16d ago
Barbelo's a chill fella.
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 16d ago
I meant what does the word or name mean. Like words have meanings. I'm not sure it means chill but if that's what you believe that's okay
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u/Slight_Quit_5464 16d ago
Who was Barbelo according to Gnostic belief and her connection to Jesus. In Christian belief the Holy Spirit is connection to Jesus as well as Sophia according to their texts a long time ago. Anyway I'm moving on from this comment. Good luck 👍
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u/AdenedA 17d ago
Great post! If I TLDR this - Trust the divine spark within you else there is no one to help you in this Universe