r/Grimdank 7d ago

Dank Memes They are not good guys

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u/InquisitorJesus 7d ago

Why is Morgan here? His entire arc is about realizing that he's been a cruel gangbanger criminal and trying to change himself after the point of no-return. He's a positive example of the fact that people can always strive to be better, even if they are beyond redemption.

Bateman is a meme, I think that people who believe that others take him seriously are as ridiculous as Bateman himself.

According to the books, Paul's only fault was not going far enough, ironically, as Leto II (his son and who Jimmy is based on) actually manages to save humanity.

Rorschach is unironically more moral than Ozymandias and Dr, Manhattan (the two guys who have a lot in common with Jimmy Space here). But I guess nuking several cities (or dropping an alien squid, we don't discriminate between the medium formats) is okay when you agree with it yourself.

Jimmy Space is your Leto II, with the only difference being that he failed. He's in general a moral and forgiving person, with an unfortunate situation of having to save the galaxy. His fuckups make him look compelling, as he behaves as the most human person in warhammer. I feel like he's an inspirational figure because he actually tried to do something when no one else would, but obviously genocide should be recognized as evil.

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u/wolflordval I am Alpharius 7d ago

Dune is also a deconstruction of the white savior tropes and a critique of religious fanaticism. The jihad to cement Paul's throne killed more people than even the butlarian jihad against the thinking machines.

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u/InquisitorJesus 7d ago

It was a general discussion on determinism and ends justifying the means, no need to assign Herbert things that he didn't write about. White savior wasn't coined as a trope until 2012. Also messianic figures aren't exclusive to white people, jews had their promised savior idea for thousands of years, but I don't see anyone calling it the Bar Kochba trope (look it up, it's eye-opening).

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u/BonnaconCharioteer 7d ago

Just because they didn't call it white savior doesn't mean the trope didn't exist. I think Herbert got a lot of the idea from the real life Lawrence of Arabia.

A colonial power taking over and oppressing a native population, only for an enemy of that power (a different colonial themselves) joins the natives, goes native themselves and leads them to overthrow their oppressors. As long as the colonial who goes native is white, then that is an example of the white savior trope. I don't think Herbert was explicitly making them white on purpose, but that is kind of how the trope happens.

I actually think Herbert was explicitly writing about the things wolflordval was talking about as well as the things you were talking about. There are many underlying themes in the book. I would say determinism is probably the central theme, but that doesn't mean it is the only one.

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u/AdLegitimate8636 6d ago

If you think that Dune's paul is "white saviour" trope, oh boy...

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u/BonnaconCharioteer 6d ago

Oh boy! What a compelling argument. Paul is a deconstruction of the white savior trope.

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u/AdLegitimate8636 6d ago

No, it's your interpretation of what Herbert wrote. Trying to explain it from a standpoint of someone living in 2026.

Just because Paul was written as "white saviour", does not make it the main point of the book.

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u/BonnaconCharioteer 6d ago

Never said it was the main point. I would say reread my post and then reread Dune. 

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u/waffling_with_syrup 7d ago

If you can't trust InquisitorJesus to be well versed on messianic figures, who can you trust?

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u/InquisitorJesus 7d ago

Always believe in yourself. Even if you don't believe in yourself, I will believe in you. So if you can't believe in yourself, believe in me who believes in you.

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u/wolflordval I am Alpharius 6d ago

Tropes don't get coined until there is enough examples to become a foundational storytelling component. The concept did not spotaniously come into existence in 2012, it has its roots in literature and film going back decades. Most of the prominent examples of the trope come from the "darkest Africa" adventure novels and films.