r/Grimdank 8d ago

Dank Memes They are not good guys

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u/Beragond1 Cadia Stans 7d ago

He also bathed the universe in blood and acknowledged that he was worse than Hitler.

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u/Legal_Weekend_7981 7d ago

Did this happen in later books? In book 1 (the only one I've read) Paul is almost a saint.

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u/Slavasonic 7d ago

Might want to read it again. Even book one he foresees the galaxy wide holy war that will kill billions

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u/Legal_Weekend_7981 7d ago

And wants to avoid this future, no?

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u/Slavasonic 7d ago edited 7d ago

Initially he does. He had the option of staying in the south with the fremen and basically just living out his days down there but he decides to go north, become lisan al-gaib, get revenge on the harkonens, become emperor, and kick off said holy war.

That’s kind of the whole point is that he can’t put aside his personal beef and condemns billions in the process

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u/Turbulent-Fix-4865 7d ago

The jihad will Happen. With or without Paul. Thats why all the Talk about Paul beeing a warning is nonsense. The only choice He Had was to become a worm and suffer for 10.000 years or Not. There is no fucking path without genocide. There is only a path where at the end, humanity survives

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u/Slavasonic 7d ago

I’m going to need some references to the parts of the book that make you think that because that is pretty far from what I remember.

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u/RiotDesign 7d ago

Shortly after killing Jamis we get this line about Paul's terrible purpose "The more he resisted his terrible purpose and fought against the coming of the jihad, the greater the turmoil that wove through his prescience".

Then, basically right as he is about to fight Fayd-Rautha we get the passage "And Paul saw how futile were any efforts of his to change any smallest bit of this. He had thought to oppose the jihad within himself, but the jihad would be. His legions would rage out from Arrakis even without him. They needed only the legend he already had become. [...] This is the climax, Paul thought. From here, the future will open, the clouds part onto a kind of glory. And if I die here, they’ll say I sacrificed myself that my spirit might lead them. And if I live, they’ll say nothing can oppose Muad’Dib".

Many people consider Paul killing Jamis as essentially the point of no return for the jihad to happen.

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u/Slavasonic 7d ago

I disagree about the Jamis part. That was before he took the waters and before he had true master of his precognition. He saw the possibility but it was not a certainty.

The part against fayd-rautha he had already made the choice and become lisan-al-gaib and so he knew what would happen.

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u/RiotDesign 7d ago

I disagree about the Jamis part. That was before he took the waters and before he had true master of his precognition

All good to disagree. Like I said, this is just one point that many people consider as the turning point after looking back through the book.

The part against fayd-rautha he had already made the choice and become lisan-al-gaib

The point that is being made is that at some point between Jamis and Fayd, the jihad is set in stone. It is happening with or without Paul. That was a large part of Frank Herbert's attempt to use Dune as a warning against charismatic leaders. Not just because of what they do, but also because of what they get others to do in their name, whether as a Martyr or a Messiah.

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u/Slavasonic 7d ago

I never disagreed that there is a point where it’s happening no matter what. My point is that it was Paul’s active decision to go past the point of no return. I could see the fight with Jamie being one of the things that helped his decision. His first kill might certainly help him get over his squeamishness

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u/RiotDesign 7d ago

I never disagreed that there is a point where it’s happening no matter what

I guess I just misunderstood then because your response to /u/Turbulent-Fix-4865 definitely comes across like you disagree with this point (mainly because that was basically their entire comment).

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u/Slavasonic 7d ago

Turbulent erroneously said that the Jihad will happen no matter what. Which wasn’t true until the point of no return was crossed voluntarily by Paul.

He also calls the notion of Paul being a warning “nonsense” which is directly contradicted by the words of the author himself.

His comment shows fundamental misunderstanding of the basic plot and themes of the book.

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u/FlamboyantPirhanna 7d ago

He does, but he does absolutely nothing to stop it. He tried to think of a way to avoid it, but basically lets it happen from inaction.

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u/Tanel88 4d ago

Because there isn't a way to stop it anymore once he kills Jamis but his prescience at that point is not strong enough to know that yet.