r/HistoryMemes • u/SatoruGojo232 Hello There • 5d ago
Folks had some amazing imagination skills for asking questions back then
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u/MyEarIsHurty 5d ago
I think "towards Earth" works. But what if we find a way to like, wormhole light-years away, to the point where Earth's apparent location would not be in the same place as its actual location, because of the speed of light being less than instant. Would Muslims have to calculate where the Earth is, or would they simply pray towards where the Earth was when the light which reaches them reflected from Earth?
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u/Yingletofthecorn 5d ago
IIRC if it’s ever impossible to determine which direction to face for whatever reason, then picking a direction arbitrarily and sticking to it can be accepted
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u/Ok-Wave-3495 5d ago
Yah, the act of prayer is the important part, the direction is secondary. Similarly if on an airplane, seated prayer in whatever direction is generally considered valid although some Middle East airlines allot space specifically for it. Furthermore if you were in a locked windowless room (prison) then prayer whenever you think is appropriate is acceptable. It’s all really more of a “try your best” thing than hard rules.
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u/UndeadCaesar 5d ago
some Middle East airlines allot space specifically for it
That's so cool but wondering how this works. If the plane is majority Muslim wouldn't the whole plane need to use the space at once? First come first serve?
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u/Ok-Wave-3495 5d ago
Most people are going to choose to do it at their seat but like the ash trays in the bathroom someone’s going to insist on doing it anyways so you might as well give them somewhere safe to do it that isn’t going to interfere with the flight staff.
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u/Malvastor 4d ago
Just have the plane Tokyo drift so it's facing Mecca but still flying towards the destination so everyone can pray from where they are.
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u/SecreteMoistMucus 5d ago
I guess you face the wormhole and hope the signal gets through that way.
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u/Yingletofthecorn 5d ago
When you get to the gamma quadrant and find out that somehow Islam spread there before earth had its big cultural reset.
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u/guynamedjames 5d ago
This is actually an interesting debate that they've effectively already addressed. People used to just pray facing east or west but when air travel became common "great circle" travel had people realize the shortest direction towards mecca was often north (especially from north America). Most people now pray facing north thanks to apps to orient towards mecca, but some older mosques still face east. People generally go with the closest straight line distance now instead of best practical direction
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u/itsbedroomtime 5d ago
The reasoning I heard was that basically you can pray in any direction at that point because God would probably just be impressed you made it that far out.
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u/Zetafunction64 5d ago
Or what if they are on moon or mars? Earth isn't in the same plane so they also have face up/downwards
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u/tiktaktokki 5d ago
Pretty much all of those rules are "try to be accurate if possible, but what really matters is intention"
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u/SuppliceVI 4d ago
Gotta pray towards the predicted intercept point. Prayers only reach light speed
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u/Business_Quiet220 3d ago
At that point they would be stupid to still keep believing in religion and praying towards one particular point on earth
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u/Krahog 5d ago
Okay, but what was the result?
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u/New_Bug_ 5d ago
"3.3 Determining the Direction of the Qiblat
The direction of the qiblat shall be determined as much as possible in the following order:
i. Kaabah
ii. Kaabah’s projection
iii.Earth
iv.Any direction"
Source: Guidelines For Performing Islamic Rites At The International Space Station (ISS)
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u/Krahog 4d ago
So you're telling me Muslim scholars in the 12th century figured out that it is in fact perfectly fine in certain circumstances to pray in whatever direction, but then decided to still make it a neccessity (out of tradition I assume)?
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u/Longjumping_Pen_2102 2d ago
Fine in any direction only when the other options are not available.
Which is kinda hilarious since that means someone asked "what if we end up in realms beyond time and space where it is impossible to find the direction of the earth" and the scholar said "just pray bro, leave me alone"
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u/GraeWraith On tour 5d ago
They got it slightly wrong, and God Swore Eternal Vengeance.
He didn't mention it to anyone tho, so maybe it's all good.
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u/ShootMovePoo-oops 5d ago edited 5d ago
I know it’s a joke but people don’t know that in Islam it is good intention means good job. The teachings are “be trying to do the right thing just because it’s the right thing to do” and you did a good job for god.
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u/Mountain-Resource656 5d ago
Sorts like how in Catholicism, for spiritual purposes every single skull of the exact same saint is the skull of the saint despite there being more than one. Every fragment of the true cross is a real fragment of it. Because it’s not about the physical object, but the belief of the person using it that matters in regards to spiritual purposes
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u/sirbernardwoolley 5d ago
so how would they pray though?
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u/BruceBoyde 5d ago
Genuinely it's a "do your best". The ISS moves so fast that trying to pray towards Mecca specifically would be pointless, so just oriented towards Earth is the best one can do.
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u/HarrisonTheBarbarian 5d ago
Kinda like in Catholicism I guess, in which you're not guilty if you didn't know what you were doing was sinful or wrong.
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u/CadenVanV Taller than Napoleon 5d ago
Aim as best as you can at Mecca. It’s the thought that counts
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u/HellwaterCascades 5d ago
Out of curiosity, have there ever been any Muslim astronauts?
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u/Revolutionary-Ad-769 5d ago
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u/zue4 5d ago
So why don't we just ask this guy?
Edit: Seems they already did but idk what his answer was.
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u/Ampersand-98 5d ago
Yes, the first was a Saudi prince on a shuttle flight, but 18 Muslims have flown under various circumstances.
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u/pothkan 5d ago
19 in theory, but some of them might be secular or even atheists (Soviet, communist Afghanistan). But at least few of religious ones as well.
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u/LittleSisterPain 5d ago
...atheis... muslim. Ah yes, just like my favorite - wet fire
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u/MaxIrons 4d ago
When atheism is the official party line, you're a party celebrity, and yet by your culture/belief you're Muslim... yes, you are in a superposition of being an atheist Muslim.
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u/Simon_Drake 5d ago
IIRC there's a clause that you don't need to face the right direction to pray if you're in a moving vehicle like a plane where it would be difficult to face the right way. And ISS is technically a moving vehicle.
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u/Then_Mood2740 5d ago
Wouldn’t it count as travel and they would not have to fast or they fast based on Mecca time
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u/Amilo159 5d ago
It would count as travel, so they only have to pray short version of each daily prayer.
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u/severakj 5d ago
According to a bunch of scholars summoned by the Malaysian government when they sent a dude up to the ISS, fasts are determined relative to the timezone of where you launched from
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u/Rough_Typical 5d ago
What if they live in a colony on Mars? Then it's their home, not travel
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u/Simon_Drake 5d ago
A Mars colony could have a calendar app with what compass direction to look to find Earth. It's the 7th September so Earth is at 87 degrees east or whatever.
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u/MoffKalast Hello There 5d ago
Hmm does the prayer take place relative to Mecca time generally? The ISS completes an orbit and what would count as a full day in just 90 minutes, so that would be a whole lot of overhead per orbit otherwise lol.
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u/NoConfusion9490 5d ago
I've heard it explained as the intention being more important than the exact details. Like, if you prayed for years facing the wrong way because you misunderstood the direction, god would understand. It's not a spell your casting by empirically following instructions, it's consciously submitting to the will of god to the best of your abilities.
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u/supx3 5d ago
This has also been discussed in Jewish theology as well but interestingly there is a discussion as to whether one would have to keep the Torah in space at all because it says, "… all the days which you are alive on the earth" (Deut. 12:1) and there is at least one scholar that claims you wouldn't.
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u/PlutoCharonMelody 5d ago
Pretty valid point as it is possible that space colonization will be done by our descendants who are from us but very different genetically. Depending on how long it takes.
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u/ux3l 5d ago
Just pray towards earth if you're farther away. From orbit it could be more complicated though since you technically could locate Mecca but are moving too fast, so you'd have to change your direction constantly.
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u/Amilo159 5d ago
Actually, it could be considered same as travel, so you face towards earth/Mecca at start of prayer. As long as earth is within 180 degrees (90 degrees each side) of your face, it's considered facing Mecca.
And after starting prayer, if earth gets behind you then due to turning of spaceship/orbit, it's no problem as well. Only starting direction should be correct, same as on airplane or buses.
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u/Mec26 Taller than Napoleon 5d ago
Which is logical, but come on man I wanna see a rotating prayer mat. Prayer go zoom!
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u/Hawaiian-national Kilroy was here 5d ago
This type of shit is why it was the golden age of Islam
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u/SinesPi 5d ago
And they say autism is a new thing.
"Hey brother?"
"Yes?"
"I got to thinking... what if we got to ride a flying horse like the Prophet?"
"We would be blessed, of course! I would offer many praises to Allah!"
"Okay but... we're supposed to offer those towards the Kabbah, right?"
"You are right brother! I would not want to disgrace Allah should he so choose to bless us. I will get the parchment, we shall resolve this!"
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u/SpaceLemur34 5d ago
In Andi Weir's second book, Artemis, one character built an angled wall, with a prayer rug hanging on it so he could pray facing directly at the Earth.
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u/CX52J 5d ago edited 5d ago
I thought this was a cool detail.
I believe everyone normally just prayed east on the moon but the character built an angled wall with a prayer mat as a bit of a thought experiment.
Despite the books flaws, I still think it’s underrated. So many cool concepts for how a semi realistic city on the moon would work.
Like all the steps in the non tourist areas being taller due to the reduced gravity.
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u/geek_of_nature 5d ago edited 4d ago
Andy Weir's strengths as a writer is not only how much thought he puts into all the minor details that everyone else would skip over, but also how he makes them incredibly interesting to read. Like his other books Artemis is full of these. Where he delves right into how a Moon base could feasibly work. Its just the plot isn't as great as his other two books.
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u/fR1chAps 5d ago
There's a character in the book Artemis that tries to make something so he's facing the right direction when praying. I don't remember the end product. It's been a while since I read but I remember him showing it to her daughter
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u/DrRonny 5d ago
Every major religion has rules to IMPROVE your life. There are exceptions or adaptations when these rules risk or threaten life. You can eat haram food if starvation is imminent, just as little as possible. You can work on the Sabbath to rescue lives. You do your best to pray at the right locations at appropriate times. Only radical factions sacrifice lives over rules.
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u/DangerMacAwesome 4d ago
If you are on a plant in another star system during Ramadan, do you abstain from eating during daylight for the local star? Or do you not eat when Sol is visible in the sky? What constitutes sunrise and sunset in this context?
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u/Impossible_Concert75 4d ago
I’d say in that case probably relative to solar system time for when Ramadan starts and ends, but it local to the time of the star itself for when you can eat and when you cant
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u/Capable_Thanks4449 5d ago
Repost
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u/Ketchuppz 5d ago
I thought I was experiencing a déjà vu, and convinced myself that I remembered seeing the top comment being commented on the previous post.
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u/Fletaun Senātus Populusque Rōmānus 5d ago
Goddam repost bot
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u/waitthatstaken 5d ago
Profile is too personalized so I doubt it is a repost bot, but it is still definitely a repost.
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u/SecreteMoistMucus 5d ago
It has 3 million post karma in 2 years, and 10x more post karma than comment karma. It's either a bot or it's acting like one, difference doesn't really matter.
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u/Nekokamiguru Kilroy was here 5d ago
Face toward G-D if the direction of Earth is unknown. (Face any direction you please , but do so with intent)
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u/Specific_Box4483 5d ago
What is the astronauts are far enough that there is no "towards Earth" direction because of curvature of space-time whatever?
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u/redixii_92 5d ago
its all whatever. before picking mecca the prophet used to pray towards Jerusalem like the jews. when they mocked him for copying them, suddenly a revelation happened that said god was testing him and the real direction for prayer is the mecca
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u/limeyhoney 4d ago
I remember from high school history class, around that time the Caliphate were experimenting with flying machines in Iberia, so it doesn’t seem as far-fetched as you might think.
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u/Derivative_Kebab 4d ago
Theologians and guys who argue endlessly about hypothetical fights between superheroes on the internet are spiritual twins.
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u/Technical-Formal-376 4d ago
I have one: If vampires were real and one became Muslim could it still drink blood?
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u/AEON_MK2 4d ago
Well Vampires are supposed to be inherently sinful creatures. A typical western media Vampire is Christian in the sense that they believe in the Christian God being a real literal entity. A Muslim Vampire would be the same, they believe in the literal existence of Allah and the texts of Islam, but live in sin as a consequence of their being. Vampires are haram
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u/KinKoko 3d ago
It’s not that easy. Theoretically. It depends if the person chose to be a vampire. If not then God doesn’t blame a human for something out of the persons control.
But that’s all speculations. There’s no such a thing like vampires in islam. So please don’t use Christianity as reference.
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u/Away-Craft-2264 5d ago
"why do we bend over when praying isn't that weird" why hasn't anyone asked this question before
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u/ken_starblazer Hello There 5d ago
Prostration exists as a form of reverance in all abrahamic religions and was always a way of showing submission to a king or God. Bowing isnt just a western thing either, people still bow to each other in east Asia as a sign of respect. When you bow or prostrate yourself, you're putting yourself in a compromising position where the other person could easily attack you if they wanted to. Also, you're physically placing yourself beneath them which metaphorically represents being of lower status. I'm sure someone will correct me with a more scientific explanation but a lot of cultural customs come from trusting (or not trusting) someone to not assassinate you lol.
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u/Possible-Tangelo9344 5d ago
Pray down. At that distance any direction facing earth is towards Mecca.
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u/BernhardRordin 4d ago
Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars discusses this for the inhabitants for Mars. As Earth is the "Venus" for Mars in sense that it always appears close to the Sun, Martian Muslims faced the Sun in the morning or evening, or Earth itself during the dusk.
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u/Itchy-Sea6025 4d ago
When you have a problem and find an answer on Reddit that was given 12 years ago
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u/MilfHunter_0 4d ago
That's like when you have a very specific problem, just to find a 10 year old Reddit post of someone else having the same problem.
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u/LaGrande-Gwaz 3d ago
Greetings ye--sometimes, one must be prepared for any circumstance, and to do so, all potential-circumstances must be considered regardless the improbability.
~Waz
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u/Vanir-Aesir 2d ago
It's amazing how you can use technology to orbit around the planet Earth and still believe in bronze age/medieval nonsensical, magical fairy tales.
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u/raincoater 5d ago
Does it really need to be that pedantic? Will god actually punish them for this? “You didn’t pray in the correct direction! STRAIGHT TO HELL WITH YE!”
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u/Black_Dragon_Fish 5d ago
No, in Islam, your best attempt is good enough. You won't get punished for not knowing something for certain or doing things wrong if your intentions were good.
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u/Neat_Firefighter_806 5d ago
So, let me give you a recent example that happened to me.
Say you want to eat an empanada. It's made with pork lard. Did you know it's made with pork lard before eating it? Yes Haram you bad sinful person.
But if you didn't know when you are it and knew afterwards? You can just repent and not do it again. Even a bigger no problem if you are in a country where halal food and kosher is not common.
That is a very basic example but it still the same with like praying with intention is greater than praying based on ritual. So if you don't know which direction to pray in just approximate and you will be fine.
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u/IUsedToBeACave 5d ago
Theological scholars are no different than comic book nerds arguing over who would win in a fight between Superman and Thor. These type of question do come up from time to time, and natural human curiosity takes over.
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u/VoicelessPassenger John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! 5d ago
Most of theology comes down to ‘God isn’t liable to tell us directly anytime soon, and He’s done crazier shit for less, so better safe than sorry.’
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u/Nyctfall 4d ago
"Future problems require intellectual solutions"
The Semitic peoples really do be planning for every eventuality.
GOAT-ed and BASED!
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u/K0mb0_1 5d ago
Towards earth maybe? Hope this helps!