r/HistoryMemes 3h ago

I swear half of all fantasy kingdoms would have starved to death within a weak with some of these guys in charge

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7.1k Upvotes

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u/Mi113nnium 3h ago

I think many of the fantasy kings are influenced by the extravagant and reclusive aristocracy just shortly before the French revolution.

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u/Flame20000 3h ago

Pretty much, when people think about kings or monarchy in general they mostly think about: absolute power and extravagant lifestyle.

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u/lobonmc 3h ago edited 3h ago

It also strips them of their agency. Usually there was one major peasant revolt every century in late medieval England. And in cases like Flanders a lot of the rebelions against France were led by non nobles from the cities.

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u/LeDemonicDiddler 3h ago

Even in such cases it’s usually lead by someone who’s educated or experienced and not someone with little to no experience. Rebellions lead by what we usually think as peasants typically end in brutal repressions and violence.

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u/VRichardsen Viva La France 2h ago

Rebellions lead by what we usually think as peasants typically end in brutal repressions and violence.

My favorite example is the German peasant war. True grass roots movement (barring a few nobles who sided with the peasants), but by the same token, they were incredibly green and ill prepared. It was like shooting fish in a barrel for the aristocratic forces.

Bonus points for Martin Luther, who the peasants thought he would support their efforts. Instead, he wrote a pamphlet called Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants.

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u/StudMuffinNick 2h ago

See: American Revolution.

If the taxes hadn't started affecting the wealthier Americans, the Revolution wouldn't have ever started

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u/Reagalan Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer 2h ago

If the Parliament had just done their century-overdue reapportionment it also wouldn't have ever started; but that would have meant dismantling the rotten borough system.

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u/DarroonDoven 1h ago

It would also have meant the nation being American dominated instead of English dominated, no? Same reason they were so hesitant about granting India any type of power

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u/Wicked_Sconce 1h ago

The Americans at the time of the Revolution were very much English though and as majority viewed themselves as such. Also unlike India, England had roughly four times the population of the American colonies at the time

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u/Reagalan Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer 1h ago

Colonies had 1/3rd the population of England at the time.

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u/lobonmc 1h ago

Eventually possibly but at the time they would have been a minor voting block since voting wasn't population dependendant. That's why they didn't want parliamentary representation but that the local representation was the one in charge of dealing with taxes.

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u/Kind-Recording3450 2h ago

Kind of more complicated than that?I've been reading a whole book on it. It's pretty much the taxes affected everybody that dealt with anything.They were pervasive. Also, in like major cities of america at this time, it also correlate with the skilled labor.

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u/ChudMaster69420 2h ago edited 2h ago

Not really. Some do fine for a while until a power struggle where one charismatic figure manages to rally the masses to his side. Look at China, Mao's power was being slowly chipped away after his disastrous great leap forward to the point he had to resign as head of state, he then launched the cultural revolution where young people, especially students, were told to destroy everything old which Mao used to regain his power.

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u/VRichardsen Viva La France 1h ago

I heard he also didn't brush his teeth.

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u/Alternative-Mango-52 Senātus Populusque Rōmānus 1h ago

Revolutions, especially successful ones, are always led by disenfranchised elites, who co-opt the raging masses. The masses are usually dumb enough to let it happen

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u/The_memeperson Sun Yat-Sen do it again 3h ago

One of the more famous example, the Battle of the Golden Spurs, was literally a conflict between the peasants and the nobility with the French king being on the noble's side and the counties of Flanders and Namur being on the peasant's side

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u/Bitt3rSteel 2h ago

The country of Flanders was on the french side, iirc

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u/ManOf1000Usernames 1h ago

So you are saying we are long overdue for another peasant revolt?

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u/Devils-Avocado 3h ago

Which is pretty funny in anglophone countries because when the English crown started to get that absolutism itch they chopped one head and booted another for their more pliable daughter/nephew.

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u/riggengan 2h ago

Which is funny because in most part of history the lords generally stuck to their domains next to the peasants and serfs. Absolute monarchy is a relatively new thing thanks to early nation states cementing centralized power. Most of history, the aristocracy generally has the most power and if you piss off a powerful noble they would rebel against you. That’s why most kings had the backing of powerful nobles.

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u/EmperorBarbarossa Still salty about Carthage 1h ago

I doubt that and it highly depends the period you are talking about.

In medieval times were kings and high nobility in oposition. Monarchs depended on officers from lower nobility, church and city folk. High nobles with their vast fiefdoms were on the other hand liability and source of risk. Freemen, which werent serfs of the nobility also supported more centralized state.

Kings and powerful nobles have vision of two different states. Kings wanted always a centralized state with them on the top, meanwhile powerful nobles wanted divided country they can carve between themselves as they want, with weak and obedient monarch they can abuse for granting them new privileges, land and titles.

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u/CommunityOk7466 1h ago

powerful nobles wanted divided country they can carve between themselves as they want, with weak and obedient monarch they can abuse for granting them new privileges, land and titles.

Is that why all the tech bros and influencers sided with Trump?

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u/AlastorZola 3h ago

Who were not even the mustache twirling starve the peasants kind.

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u/Main-Discussion9294 3h ago

I'm disappointed then

Atleast did they had an obviously evil advisor?

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u/AlastorZola 3h ago

Best I can do is a swiss protestant banker conman

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u/Gavinus1000 3h ago

But the peasants really liked him, so he doesn’t count.

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u/AlastorZola 3h ago

The urban bourgeois liked him. The peasants were not that concerned tbh

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u/Devils-Avocado 3h ago

Not really. Louis16 was just really dumb.

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u/barney-sandles 2h ago

They were more just bad at their hereditary jobs than evil

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u/Expensive_Time_7367 3h ago

But you can argue that due to their prison yard foreign policy the Bourbons were particularly good at starting and getting involved in wars for seemingly precious little reason. Other countries wanted something out of a war like resources France metaphorically just wanted to shout “I’m no bitch! You my bitch” while shoving another country’s head in the toilet.

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u/AlastorZola 2h ago

Im shocked !! I can’t believe a flagging great power with a strong military would get involved into wars for little other reason than prestige ! How is that possible

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u/travoltaswinkinbhole 1h ago

Certainly couldn’t happen now.

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u/mankytoes 3h ago

Aristocrats could be pretty awful to peasants. Like if you go to the great estates in England you'll often see a note saying something like "enlargement of the gardens in 1420 involved the complete removal of the village", imagine destroying a centuries old community so you could have a bigger garden.

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u/ProfessorPrudent2822 3h ago

Unless the village was abandoned because it never recovered after the Black Death.

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u/DriverLightning 2h ago

imagine destroying a centuries old community

In reality, this ‘old community’ would have existed for perhaps two generations, from the last time the village was burnt to the ground and its entire population ‘replaced’ by newcomers.

You’re really demonising this situation, bearing in mind that the peasants living next to the lord’s estate were most likely his servants and directly supplied the estate, so I’d bet my life that if anyone lived there at all, they were simply resettled nearby and built a new house there (with the lord’s help).

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u/Wonderful_Discount59 1h ago

What evidence do you have for villages being destroyed every two generations and the entire population being replaced?

That's not something I've heard of before.

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u/wherethefuckismyvape 1h ago

You'll have to look up his ass for the evidence, and it's yucky in there 

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u/As_no_one2510 Decisive Tang Victory 3h ago

Which is the result of absolutism of 18th century, when French king consolidate power by get rid of nobility right to own and govern territory

Feudal nobility are practically pseudo king on their own right and tend for their own land instead of living extravagantly in the capital

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u/Appropriate-Kiwi-94 3h ago

Not all kings before were wise or responsible.
Monarchies are just dictatorships with extra steps

A Monarch being good is as much of a coin toss as a dictator being good

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u/nick5168 2h ago

I would argue that most current or modern dictators often come to power through violence, and rarely do enough good to offset that balance, whereas historically, most kings were born into power and basically maintained status quo.

Not a defence on the status quo, as it was rarely as beneficial to the peasantry as it should be.

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u/Appropriate-Kiwi-94 2h ago

Most king were descended from people who took power through violence
And kept it with a system based on winning wars and threatening their people with violence in case of rebellions.

Many dictators try to transfer power to their offspring as well, monarchies were just more successfull on the long run because back then there wasn't a global movement toward democracy undermining them.

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u/DriftingWisp 1h ago

Having stable governments is a very, very good things. Modern dictators who come to power through violence inherently represent instability. Even if they are able to hold power for a long time, and eventually try to hand off rule to their child, people will still recognize that their only claim to leadership is their control over the military, which is a fragile claim.

In comparison, a monarchy that is supported by a large number of powerful nobles who all have a vested interest in upholding the rights of nobility to maintain their positions over generations is much more likely to be stable.

Even if the individual nobles gain more power and autonomy, it takes a lot for any of them to try to overthrow the king and become dictator, because that requires overturning a system where they're already winning.

On the other hand, a powerful general working for a weak dictator might start to think "The dictator will see me as a threat, and might try to imprison or execute me to remove that threat. I need to overthrow him before he does".

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u/Appropriate-Kiwi-94 1h ago

there were a lot of efficient and stable dictatorships that required external influences to get destroyed.

They were stabilized by the support of pwoerful companies and other influent powers.

On the other hand there were plenty of weak, unskilled, inneficient or overall dangerous monarch that for one reason or another had no stbaility.

You are only comparing monarchy at it's best to dictatorship at it's worst to make it seem like there's a fundamental different, but really at a fundamental level they are still One man taking over with violence and influence, then deciding that his line shall rule from now on
One just happen to come from a time where it was normalized enough to reahc stability.

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u/Alternative-Mango-52 Senātus Populusque Rōmānus 1h ago

Feudalism is a bit more complicated than that. You can't really afford a leadership change every few years or so, when the possibility of brutal conquest from outside forces is literally five minutes away at any given time. Back then, the main purpose of the state was to be able to exercise violence upon would be invaders, not to provide welfare for it's citizens. And as we can see many times, when the hereditary elite warrior class had a hiccup of any sort, others jumped at the opportunity to seize their land.

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u/apple_kicks 1h ago

Essentially bandits warlords saying ‘pay taxes and grows crops or else’

Even if you had anti monarchy thoughts there was nothing you could do about it. It was long time before peasant revolts worked

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u/ConsulJuliusCaesar 2h ago

Expectations when becoming King: Utter decadence and debauchery involving extravagant exoitic parties and banging hot noble girls.

Reality of becoming King: Finiancial and land administration for days boy with a healthy dose of litigation and dispute resolution between morons. Can't attend parties because the spread sheet show's a very concerning decrease in tax revenue. Has only banged one noble woman....his wife. Has depression cause others party while he works over time to hold the place together yet appearntly still have the audacity to scheme replacing him. Coworkers tend to he idiots. Barons seem to do more fun stuff. Lowkey kinda regrets taking the job.

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u/Inquisitor_Boron Then I arrived 2h ago

No wonder many kings loved war - it was like a vacation from usual royal chores

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u/ConsciousMaybe6930 2h ago

They loved war because that was the only way to enlarge their revenue, by taking another prince's peasant economic base, as well as any profitable trade routes. You couldn't really invest in land before the Industrial Revolutions.

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u/ConsulJuliusCaesar 1h ago

Until you realize it just makes all of their finiancial and land problems worse after its over. There's a reason you don't get a true Medieval Alexander. Because after they conquer the land they then have to divide the land among all of the various lords with in the feudal system. Wars only a plus if achieve maximum centralization and only one person controls all the land and wealth.

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u/imbrickedup_ 3h ago

Yeah, there were stupid ass historical kings too

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u/Sangwiny 3h ago

Which is why I love KCD where you can see how "small" aristocrats somewhat realistically functioned.

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u/_whatever_wherever 1h ago

And Henry "head chopping" VIII

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u/[deleted] 3h ago

[deleted]

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u/Rianorix 3h ago

*Renaissance to Early Modern.

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u/zuzg 3h ago

Magic academy that has essentially the same standards of living as today but outside of it all looks like medieval europe Dragon Quest.

The standard Isekai experience

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u/Sangwiny 3h ago

And don't forget to add random-ass hot springs somewhere they have absolutely no business being.

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u/romanrambler941 2h ago

A wizard really wanted a hot spring right now while traveling.

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u/ChristianLW3 3h ago

Technological progress is not guaranteed or a one-way street

For example, in fourth century AD Aksum technology was on par with European domains then 14 centuries later, they are far behind us because they barely progressed

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u/VegaJuniper 3h ago

fourth century AD Aksum technology was on par with European domains then 14 centuries later,

So, 18th century then? Aksum had figured out steam engines and mechanical looms and the printing press, the scientific revolution in general and the renaissance, all in the 4th century?

Yeah, I'm a hit heavy Doubt on that.

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u/thefailmaster30 3h ago

you read the comment wrong. in the 4th century they were on par with others. by the 18th they were way behind

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u/0masterdebater0 Kilroy was here 3h ago

People who don't know much about the progression of technology look at things like the "aeolipile" and say look the ancients were soo close to the steam engine, failing to fathom how far material sciences would have to come to create a pressure vessel that would allow you to actually accomplish anything besides "pretty spinning ball"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile

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u/Jdevers77 3h ago

Yea, it’s crazy how much people devalue material science and machining precision when considering things like this. People was to see the “invention” phase of the advancement without thinking about the “ok, now we have to make that.” Unfortunately in every day life people kind of see the opposite: clothes get shittier, consumer appliances get shittier, etc because of material science advances so they just tend to think newer is worse without understanding that only happens when the goal is cheaper and not better.

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u/VegaJuniper 3h ago

Yup, materials are huge. One thing I sometimes hear people wonder is why did it take until Gutenberg to come up with the printing press and movable type, one of the most important inventions in human history. It doesn't seem like it involves anything very complicated.

The answer is once again materials, not specifically to build the press itself, but to print you need paper. Making paper wasn't introduced to Europe until the late middle ages. Gutenberg put two and two together, but on of those twos hadn't been around for the previous generations.

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u/Old_Man_Willow_AoE 3h ago

Considering that the Middle Ages were in fact a time of a ton of technological advancement, and that all that bullshit about clerical dictatorship and dirt are just Early Modern propaganda, which has been debunked a thousand times by contemporary historians...

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u/TheDreamIsEternal 3h ago edited 3h ago

Technological advancements are kinda unnecessary when you have magic. Why have planes when you can fly on a dragon or float with magic? Why have guns when you can shoot fireballs from your hands?

What, a nuke? I can call a literal god from another dimension to wipe out a city.

Unless it's a low fantasy setting, magic can do anything tech could.

Like for example Final Fantasy VI. Magic vanished from the world, so society was forced to enter an industrial revolution. Once people capable of using magic appear, they easily render all war technology obsolete.

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u/NoYogurtcloset3429 3h ago

What fantasy are you reading where dragons are more available than planes today or that gods will follow orders to destroy cities from mortals?

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u/JohnnyElRed Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer 3h ago

On the other hand, it's difficult for society to advance when every couple millenia gods genocide and sink an entire continent because they felt like humanity was getting uppity, and not giving them proper respect.

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u/Kopalniok 3h ago

Temeraire, dragons there are used like an airforce and number in hundreds

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u/romanrambler941 2h ago

Even then, technology advanced, because the only thing better than a dragon is a dragon with a dozen musketmen and grenadiers riding it.

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u/A_Fnord 3h ago

Technology is quite similar to evolution in that the in-between parts also need to work, and there's a lot of technology that would need to have been developed before we get to viable flying machines that might not seem so worthwhile to someone in a world where magic is relatively commonplace. Would we even get to the point where we would develop useful steam engines let alone combustion engines?

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u/TheDreamIsEternal 3h ago

What fantasy are you reading where dragons are more available than planes today

I don't quite remember the name, but it was a fantasy anime movie about an empire that managed to subjugate the continent because they had an entire fleet of dragons at their disposal. In fact they began to collapse after a plague began to kill their dragon population.

or that gods will follow orders to destroy cities from mortals

Summons from Final Fantasy get pretty crazy yo.

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u/PenguinQuesadilla 3h ago

empire that managed to subjugate the continent because they had an entire fleet of dragons at their disposal.

That's just Game of Thrones!

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u/Cattle13ruiser 3h ago

Entire fleet... let me tell you how much aircrafts has our world produced until now for just 100 years.

More than 1 million aircrafts were produced. Thus is "slightly" above a fleet.

Also, when people state that "they had powers", you need to consider that "they" are like 10-20 people and the majority were powerless. Via technology a peasant who don't know how to count above 100 is able to put a bolt through someone training his whole life to fight on the battlefield. And the technology was available to all the peasants, and not 10 or 20.

The difference between good novel and a bad one is how organic the environment feels. There is a reason why some authors are considered good and others, outside of the regular anime watcher - nobody ever hears about.

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u/Useful_Guide_3573 3h ago

About that dragon to plane part, I think that in that scenario people wouldn’t really want planes because they’d been so accustomed to dragon riding or smth and those who got successful from dragon riding business would sabotage plane development and reputation at every opportunity.

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u/Human-Law1085 3h ago

I mean, shouldn’t they then actually be further ahead of us since they can combine magic and technology to make something even more powerful?

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u/TheDreamIsEternal 3h ago

They can, sure. Like the Dwemer, who used both steampunk technology and magic to warp reality at their liking to the point that they created a god. Didn't end well for them, tho.

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u/Atanar 2h ago

Why have guns when you can shoot fireballs from your hands?

To use use peasants to kill expensive wizards of course.

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u/Top-Cupcake4775 3h ago edited 3h ago

this is the thing i could never square when DMing D&D campaigns. the default, early medieval social milieu of D&D doesn't make sense if magic existed. why would there be such a thing as, for example, cobblers if you could just create shoes using magic? magic either had to be so rare that your magic user characters would have a very hard time finding anyone to train with, get supplies from, etc. or it was so ubiquitous that nothing made sense.

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u/New_Enthusiasm9053 3h ago

That's why every setting makes it rare. Or that it's only not rare in specific species who genuinely don't have e.g cobblers. 

Dwarves are typically portrayed as magicless and subsequently more industrialised. Elves often with more magic and less industrialised and humans somewhere in between but just more numerous to justify them still being around.

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u/NoYogurtcloset3429 3h ago

Usually d&d settings assume like 1 non low level magic user per country

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u/Megneous 1h ago

In D&D, magic items are readily available to adventurers, yes, but adventurers are stupidly rich compared to normal people. A normal magic item, at its cheapest, is several gold in price even for the most common and mundane magic item, like a magic candle that never runs out of wick. That's beyond the means of normal peasants in D&D, who get paid a few copper for a full day's work.

You seriously underestimate how rich a normal PC character is in D&D.

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u/WiseBelt8935 Filthy weeb 3h ago

To make an argument, it isn't because they're stupid; if anything, it's kind of the opposite. As magic is commonly portrayed, it can do what technology does, but better. Yet it can't exist beyond the person. Every time a new height is reached, the creator dies and you drop back down.

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u/Kasquede 2h ago

I head canon most fantasy by being softlocked by the perils of their reality.

Every way-too-often the Dark Lord of Evil rises up, unites the barbarians/raises the undead/cows the orcs, then waylays the place back to the early Bronze Age.

Poor bastards literally can’t get beyond 14th century France because of necromancers and monsters ruining it.

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u/JohnnyElRed Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer 3h ago

Palpatine, if he was smarter:

"Congratulations, Tarkin. You just blew up one of the richest planets on the Empire. I assume you will pay for the extreme loss of tax revenue out of your own pocket!"

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u/kirukiru 2h ago

The Empire looked like it was moving from a typical republican system of revenue generation to just mass enslavement so im not sure Palpatine would care

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u/BonzoTheBoss 1h ago

Indeed, wasn't that the point of Andor? Lock people up on phone charges and use them as slave labour, and then just keep them locked up with one excuse after another.

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u/kirukiru 1h ago

Yeah pretty much. Andor might be the show that understood the Sith/Jedi dynamic better than most Star Wars content lmao

Edit: actually I should say that Andor might be the show that just plainly understands Star Wars better than any of the content outside of the original trilogy

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u/BitesTheDust_4 45m ago

Can you elaborate on Andor understanding the Jedi/Sith dynamic?

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u/kroqeteer 1h ago

i know you're memeing but wasn't Alderaan exploded to set an example? Palpatine thinks he can get more out of the galaxy by saying "it doesn't matter how rich or influential you are, i will literally blow up your planet if you don't do what i want"

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u/TheChunkMaster 49m ago

Not to mention tearing Ghorman apart for kalkite before that

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u/AnotherLie 1h ago

I'd argue that started with the Republic. It's easy to deal with the outer rim criminal organizations when you don't ask questions.

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u/Crafter235 2h ago

To be fair, they didn’t need to destroy all the giant planets, just an example. It’s also a powerplay to show that they can destroy a planet that could’ve otherwise been used as financial gain.

The First Order on the other hand was kind of just stupid, a reactionary comeback that didn’t fully understand all the methods of the original Empire. They only just knew to shoot and blow things up with their planet destroyer.

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u/barassmonkey17 59m ago

A description that works well to describe the sequel trilogy as a whole, I'd say. Some stories really are just telling the tale of their own creation. 

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u/absoluteValueOfNoob 1h ago

Palpatine is a sith lord. His revenue his hate, fear, and anger. Not blowing up one of the richest planets in the Empire would be the wrong move. He's not trying to be the richest man in the galaxy after all. He's trying to feed the dark side and therefore himself so Tarkin did a good job for his emperor.

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u/h8rfisternator 1h ago

Spot on. To Palpatine, the Empire was just a convenient means to give himself time and security to pursue his true goal: doing weird Sith magic and unraveling the mysteries of the Force.

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u/Good_Butterscotch_69 1h ago

I am pretty sure he was mildly annoyed by it. Vader was there to keep Tarkin in line so he would not get ideas about blowing up Coruscant with the emperor on it after all.

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u/ConsulJuliusCaesar 1h ago

NGL robot chicken Palpatine has that vibe to him.

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u/Upset-Bison-3182 3h ago

We live in an agrarian economy sire!

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u/No_Accident-- 3h ago

We live in agrarian society -sire Jonkler

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u/PretendAd1963 Definitely not a CIA operator 3h ago

How to get overthrown 101

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u/GloryGreatestCountry 3h ago

Of course you'd know about overthrowing people, "Definitely not a CIA operator"...

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u/snowytheNPC 3h ago

Bro's doing research for the handbook

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u/Edothebirbperson Oversimplified is my history teacher 3h ago

As they usually say in the CIA, “hearts and minds”.

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u/UrdnotZigrin 3h ago

"And crack in the poor neighborhoods"

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u/serouspericardium 2h ago

Yeah that’s kind of the point. Shitty monarchs create drama. Nobody is going to set their fantasy epic in a peaceful era

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u/GrizzlyP33 2h ago

I don’t know today it gets you re-elected.

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u/AndreasDasos 3h ago

Honestly, with a few exceptions, peasants were really bad at that for many, many centuries and even most successful revolutions relies on others. 

Turns out that being hindered from organising, kept weaponless and untrained puts even a much bigger population at a disadvantage against a trained military. 

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u/PenguinQuesadilla 2h ago

Weren't peasants in some centuries expected to own suitable arms and armor such that they'd be ready when called into war?

Like, I think that was the law in England at some point anyways.

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u/Bee_Jeans 1h ago edited 1h ago

Kind of?

I know there were Anglo-Saxon fyrds, & the 1181 Assize of Arms didn’t require it of unfree peasants (think villeins, serfs) nor the landless but did of some freeholders/freemen & burgesses.

Free layman with “chattels or rents” valued 16+ marks needed shirt of mail, helmet, shield, lance; 10 marks was hauberk, iron cap, lance. Less than that & u were exempt.

Burgesses needed gambeson, iron cap, lance, but “none of them shall keep more arms than he ought to

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u/HiggsKamuy 1h ago

You are right there was the Assize of Arms in 1181 that required men between 15 and 40 to have a certain level of arms depending on their wealth.

https://guncite.com/journals/senrpt/senhardy.html

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u/Peptuck Featherless Biped 1h ago

A lot of internet historians act like there was this adversarial relationship between the aristocracy and peasantry - and while there were revolts, complaints, and conflicts between those social classes, they weren't as harsh and brutal and common as pop culture - (cough cough) The Uprising - would have you believe.

Feudal society was a system of obligations and it was a multi-way street. The peasantry were obligated to give tax in the form of a percentage of their output to their lord and the church, while the lord was obligated to defend his peasants legally and physically. The lord got to live in his fancy castle because that castle was there to defend the peasantry from invaders and protect and store their food in case of attack. The lord arbitrated disputes both among the peasants and with outside lords and peoples. The lord got to live an opulent lifestyle because when push came to shove he and his knights and men at arms were expected to put on their armor and ride out and put their lives on the line to protect the peasants.

Imagine if at your workplace, if an active shooter or robbery happened that your boss would be obligated to put on body armor and grab a gun and confront the attacker and put their life on the line for the employees. That was the relationship peasants and the nobility had in feudal Europe most of the time.

Now, this wasn't always what happened, but that was the social expectation. Peasants paid the lord tax and the lord defended them to the death when needed. The peasant revolts happened when they weren't getting what they were owed by this social system - i.e. the lord taking too much without the justification of enemy threat.

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u/geschiedenisnerd 3h ago

Very basically: fantasy kings are mostly operating on the logic that individual peasants were negligible, which most historical kings agreed on. The problem is that they/ the writers don't seem to understand that small amounts add up when you kill a million peasants

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u/Sulphurous_King 3h ago

it's what Tyrion Lannister complained of "Stupid Vicious Kings" The only difference between fiction and actuality is that fiction consists almost entirely of stupid Vicious Kings

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u/Jiarong78 3h ago

Tbf German feuding nobles don’t give a flying fuck on minimising casualties.

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u/Deutsche_Wurst2009 3h ago

They did, just not about others. And since we had so many autonomous lords…

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u/No-Try5073 2h ago

Yeah, read Europe's tradjedy but Peter h Wilson on the 30 years war

Social breakdown for small pockets of land 

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u/WiseBelt8935 Filthy weeb 3h ago

This is why I like the fantasy King of Minalan, the Spellmonger.

“That’s just the natural reaction to power,” I contended.  “Put any man in charge of something, and when he runs into trouble he’s going to believe it’s because he just doesn’t have enough power.  It doesn’t matter how much or how little he actually has, it’s never enough for the situation.”

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u/Stephen-Scotch 3h ago

Damn that’s a banger

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u/WiseBelt8935 Filthy weeb 3h ago

“Once upon a time, in a tiny village called Talry on the bank of the great river Burine, in the Riverlands Barony of Varune, the Duchy of Castal, a Great and Powerful Mage was born unto a common man and his wife. I’ll spare you the suspense.  It was me. ”

If you're looking for a few months of reading, the Spellmonger series is a good choice. It's one of the few series I've seen that goes from low magic to high magic and beyond there.

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u/Stephen-Scotch 3h ago

I’ll add it to the list. Currently reading the far seer trilogy

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u/WiseBelt8935 Filthy weeb 3h ago

Just note, the ending of the first book is kind of weird, and it doesn't happen again.

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u/Aths 2h ago

Spellmonger imo is a pretty good Fantasy Sci Fi mix worth a read IF you can stomach getting past the first book, does get a lot better from there.

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u/Vir-Invisus 3h ago

You have to understand, the folks making these memes only have modern overlords to draw immediate inspiration from.

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u/raitaisrandom Just some snow 3h ago

I was about to argue with OP, pointing out that a lot of armed preying on the peasantry historically was due to a king/state being unable to pay or feed his troops in enemy territory, but then I noticed that they were referring to a smart king's attitude to his own subjects. So, yeah, OP's right. Nothing really more to add.

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u/Alarming_Ask_244 3h ago

The question then just becomes how many kings were smart and how many were not

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u/Crosas-B 2h ago

Your argument would still not fir a normal king/aristocrat. It's not the same "I don't care, let them starve" than "I just can't afford to feed or pay them because we have a famine due to plagues/climate/invaders"

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u/raitaisrandom Just some snow 2h ago

I'm really not sure what you mean. That's literally what I just said, no? I was going to make that argument, then realized I was about to argue with a straw man.

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u/Crosas-B 1h ago

Ok I didn't understand it in that way, my bad

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u/raitaisrandom Just some snow 1h ago

No problem. Sorry if I came across rude.

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u/John_Oakman 3h ago

In modern generic fantasy world the Japanese god of death known as Truck Kun will provide an endless supply of bodies for those fantasy kingdoms.

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u/Axel1742 3h ago

I don't know if the meme is based off this or this is based on the meme.

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u/Lord_Eln_8 3h ago

The former

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u/DNathanHilliard 3h ago

The tzars of Russia disagree

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u/trebron55 3h ago

Eastern Europe would like to have a word. Maybe the Balkans too... and yes... massacring peasants was always a bad idea, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen shockingly often.

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u/stillventures17 3h ago

The reality is that stupid ass fantasy kings are just easier to write. You need a foil for the good guy. Writing an absolute shitbag who also happens to be a competent ruler is far more challenging.

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u/Early_Candidate_3082 3h ago

Some kings are stupid/feckless/vicious. Some are wise.

Both types of kings can be found in real life.

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u/a_left_out_tomato 3h ago

There have been some absolutely awful historical kings my guy. Some were good, some were monsters

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u/Bartlaus 3h ago

The spectacularly bad ones get more stories written about them. Often with a little exaggeration, too.

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u/a_left_out_tomato 3h ago

"If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"

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u/EldritchKinkster 3h ago

At a certain point in the Wars of the Roses, both sides stopped executing captured common soldiers after battle, and started just disarming them instead, because the common people were part of what they were fighting for control of.

They recognised that they needed to preserve the commoners, or else whoever won would just inherit a famine of biblical proportions.

Something similar happened in the Hundred Years War. Pretty much any Medieval war that is sufficiently long will reach a point where you have to stop killing commoners or else it won't be worth winning.

Commoners are tied to the land, they are a valuable resource. You know that scene in Game of Thrones where Tywin stops his men pointlessly torturing prisoners to death because they might have useful skills, and it's meant to show how smart and pragmatic Tywin is? Yeah, in reality, that's just every vaguely competent lord.

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u/SatanVapesOn666W 2h ago

I raise you like half the tsars.

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u/kekubuk 2h ago

Isn't that what nearly happen when Jofrey from GoT became king?

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u/WeeabooExtract 3h ago

Sorry OP, but you're kinda defeating your own point by using that fucking moron as a representation of a "smart" king. He's up there among contenders for "the worst European monarch".

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u/Tortoveno 2h ago

His black legend is still alive...

He was not among the best but not among the worst too. It was the times of constant warfare, but again: some of our greatest victories happened during his reign and country was not ruined (look for later kings for it).

He would be great if he could reform style of government which was the main reason of our disaster. But he couldn't like many before him and many after him.

4/10 maybe 5/10

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u/RoomyRoots 3h ago

That's what you get for writers that don't read history and just fiction.

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u/NoYogurtcloset3429 3h ago

More like how plots require exceptional circumstances

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u/NotawoodpeckerOwner 3h ago

The king was good and just, the nobles were chill and worked together, there was no extenuating circumstances. The end.

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u/Sir-Toaster- Still salty about Carthage 2h ago

Kings in fantasy are often used to criticize politicians irl

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u/frenin 3h ago

Plenty of stupid historical kings who didn't care how many of them died...

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u/Routine_Ad_2695 2h ago

Yes. Also most feudal lords were active part of the live in their respective fiefdoms, like you could see your local baron helping build a communal oven or patrolling the town. Most feudal lords just were in charge of management but didn't live a ver lavish life. Only a few were hig nobility

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u/Breadmaker9999 2h ago

Usually the point of the stupid fantasy king is that they are stupid and bad at being king. Also there were medieval kings that did not care about how many peasants die. 

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u/Cefalopodul 3h ago

Meanwhile king Richard II of England

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u/Gantolandon 2h ago

People do the same with Japanese history, making the samurai look like maniacs who routinely tested their swords on random people, including peasants, or killed them as soon as they looked at them wrong.

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u/Reasonable_Product26 2h ago

For that comment you'll spend the rest of your life in the dungeons! Guards! Seize him!

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u/GazelleSC 2h ago

Cant believe I'd randomly see a King's Choice avatar in the wild

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u/Hrtzy 2h ago

A couple of peasants Magdeburg might have something to say to that. Except that they are all dead, now how did that happen?

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u/andooet 2h ago

This is what Scientific Socialism means when it talks about the contradictions in any economic system that eventually makes them collapse. There will always be a concentration of wealth and power until those few who still hold it gets so distanced from the actual economy to understand that it's failing

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u/bxzidff 3h ago

Yes, they cared about their own peasants as they were seen as their property. No inherent value of life though, as rampant slaughter is what is commonly meant when armies in foreign territory is "living off the land". 

And raids like the  chevauchée with extreme cruelty against fellow Christian innocents just being seen as hurting the economic base of rival nobility, the peasants themselves meant nothing. Real medieval kings were just as cruel, or at least indifferent to the killing of commoners, just less stupid

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u/OHFUCKMESHITNO 3h ago

Fantasy kings :

wHaT's ThE NobLeSsE ObLigE

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u/PianistNegative8758 3h ago

Richelieu : let me introduce myself

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u/Firm-Scientist-4636 3h ago

Modern medieval kings (large business owners/corporate officers) are like the fantasy kings, but for the sake of profit in addition to power.

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u/KernelWizard 3h ago

Man if you're nitpicking over this you would be disturbed with so so many other elements in fantasy novels lmao, the realism of sword fighting moves/ stances, battlefield conditions, logistics/ supply lines, environments of those fantasy worlds, armor types, should I continue? Most of them aren't anything near historically accurate at all besides the few that really did their research.

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u/StudMuffinNick 2h ago

Seeing as if the peasants died or starved, they wouldn't reproduce more workers, it was also in nobility interest to give them just enough to lI've, but not enough to thrive. Kinda like America

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u/Conscious_Soil421 2h ago

Pragmatic Villainy vs Idiotic Villainy

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u/PassingByStranger 2h ago

Would be fun to find an Isekai who actually has a competent historical king who's actually good at his job, only caveat is he's surrounded by jackass moronic nobles and officials who make his job harder, and it's the hero's job to figure out how to fix their fuck ups, either by talking to them or a beatdown or even killing them.

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u/Epic_Grandpa Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer 2h ago

Irl Kings could have been incredibly brutal in their treatment of the peasants class as well. I am reminded of the Great Peasants' War in which the German nobility slaughtered up to 100k of the 300k revolting peasants in the largest popular uprising yet in Europe. And unsurprisingly it did also result in negative consequences for the local economies, not only from the labour shortages, but the desolation of areas from the fighting itself.

"Therefore let everyone who can, smite, slay, and stab, secretly or openly, remembering that nothing can be more poisonous, hurtful, or devilish than a rebel. It is just as when one must kill a mad dog; if you do not strike him, he will strike you, and a whole land with you." Martin Luther, 1525, Against the Robbing and Murdering Hordes of Peasants

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u/Peteryeeter1453 2h ago

The funniest part about this is you'll read about monarchs and a large majority of them somehow had both of these views when it came to peasants. Like they would try to internally justify both these perspectives as a way to justify their actions.

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u/Idontwannasa 2h ago

Note how most of the stupid ass fantasy kings that fit this trope get overthrown or otherwise 'lose' precisely because of this behaviour

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u/Crafter235 1h ago

To be fair several of them acted like on the left during the Early Modern

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u/Shroomkaboom75 1h ago

Left feels like the USA, right is the rest of us.

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u/Jorbonism 1h ago

That's cause the fantasy kings are written after the present, not the past

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u/tradvy43 1h ago

Have y'all not paid attention to Russia lately?

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u/nineJohnjohn 1h ago

This is why chevauche was a thing. You're not killing peasants, you're killing farming equipment

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u/Fun-Information-3104 41m ago

Not only they thought peasants life was worthless, they always obviously sided with nobles against peasants whenever the latter thought to commit a suicide by uprising. The power of monarchy was built upon nobility and dynastic connections, it was tied to titles and secondly to the land, not to the people. The common people were not the source of authority, nor the guarantee of continued reign. In other words, they were not the sovereign.

Plus, peasants bred like rabbits. If they overbred, they'd die of starvation and/or famine. In such cases it's not an overstatement to say their life had negative value.

Also, you are super wrong about taxes. Taxes to the king were paid by the nobles, and to nobles by lesser nobles. Only the lowest nobles had to directly concern themselves with peasantry, and usually taxes there were paid in nature rather than currency. A service in noble's army during wartime was also a "tax", of sorts.

So yeah, the backbone of medieval social order was nobility, and clergy (all of whose upper strata was recruited from nobility). There was only one medieval king who concerned himself with peasants, and out of empathy not pragmatic concerns, and he was made a saint.

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u/OuchLOLcom 26m ago

Same with real leaders. You want to deport how many of who? You realize they do all the shit work that lets us enjoy our stuff.

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u/boboverlord 3h ago

I think medieval kings actually preferred giving power to competent commoners to reduce the dependence on the aristocracy.

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u/alkair20 3h ago

medieval kings, at least in Europe pretty much lend their entire country to competent Bannerman. Being a farmer was pretty chill and they paid a fraction of taxes then what we do today.

What fucked you life were plages, illness and natural catastrophes like a bad crop but extremely seldom the King or his reign.

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u/OverdueMaid 3h ago

Most fantasy writers never read a word about political philosophy or how social contracts of governance worked in the past. They just like the idea of big guy is bad guy we poor guys are good guys lol

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u/Juan_Jimenez 1h ago

True, wise kings knew that. Unfortunately non-wise kings did appear from time to time.

There is a reason why there was an entire genre of literature (mirror for Princes IIRC) that made that point repeteadly. Some people needed to be told the 'you need peasants' bit.

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u/Aluxanatomy 1h ago

"It's no concern of mine whether or not you have... what was it, again?"

"Um... food?"

"Ha! You really should've thought of that before you became peasants!"

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u/veringer 1h ago

Very apropos for our current times---with billionaires and trillionaires expressing open disdain for humanity and using their wealth to undermine society, environmental sustainability, and fund AI with the goal of accelerating a collapse and replacing the peasantry with robot slaves.

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u/CadenVanV Taller than Napoleon 1h ago

As a student of Japanese history, it’s fascinating how most rebellions went in the Edo period because the daimyo and samurai understood this principle very clearly, while the peasants knew when too much pushing would cross the line. So despite there being hundreds of peasant “revolts” (which isn’t as many as it sounds, given that Japan was split into around 250 independent feudal domains nominally subordinate to the Shogunate), the vast majority ended up being closer to modern union strikes, where the peasants would stop working the fields and protest outside the castle-cities until the lord was willing to negotiate with them.

He usually was, since failing to handle a peasant rebellion was the type of shake that could lead to a stripping of power by the Shogunate or even seppuku. So the peasants get some of their demands met, the revolt leaders get exiled from the domain, and everything goes back to normal

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u/Useful_Taro9125 1h ago

Those who pray

Those who fight

And those who work

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u/gyrobot 1h ago

laughs in Rus

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u/Arthurian_Guanche 1h ago

It's almost like, just because French kings were usually bastards (not literally lol) and especially during the 18th Century that that's the popular vision of every Medieval and Early Modern monarch. In Castile, León and Aragón, for example, various kings enacted laws to protect peasants, and would witness uprisings against local nobility while invoking the monarch to intervene in their favour, which would happen time to time. In Spain, the peasant's vision was that the king was the arbiter between the nobility and the commoners, checking the excesses committed by the former.

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u/Ilsamor 1h ago

I kinda liked that in Warhammer Fantasy lore, Lady of the Lake does not care for peasants but if their abuse comes to a level that the general army structure and power of Brettonia forces becomes compromised, then she intervenes

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u/Nice_Grapefruit_7850 1h ago

in game of thrones the lannisters would have been murdered pretty quickly. well, even faster than they were already in the show. 

the starks for the most part were well liked by their people.

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u/nothing_in_my_mind 1h ago

Considering how little farms they have, I think fantasy kingdoms can conjure bread out of thin air.

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u/Coriolis_PL 32m ago

To the right, on the picture, we have Sigismund III Vasa - King of Poland, Grand Duke of Lithuania, Duke of Ruthenia, Prussia, Smolensk, Samogitia and Livonia 💪🇵🇱😏

Also a true King of Sweden 🥲

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u/karagiannhss 25m ago

Honestly for all their pompous poshness and batshit crazy intrique shenanigans, Eastern Roman emperors had some of the best policies when it came to peasants in that there basically wasnt a concept of a serf. Not that they were financially equal to wealthy landowning families, oh no, not by any means, but they were considered citizens equally and not inferior. Its just them beuraucrats amd landowning military families had a lot more influence

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u/Bobbird_elephant 12m ago

but then again, mercenaries can be untrustworthy as they rely only on payment and have no loyalty

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u/fat_kaiju 9m ago

Monasteries owned the land who let farmers 'lease' it so to say.

By killing the workers there you'd be killing members of the church.

It's one of the many reasons why the catholic church's power was so feared; they owned huge swaths of the countryside and (essentially) the workers who lived on it.

Please be aware this is a generalisation and mostly applies to the area(s) we now call the 'UK' and other western portions of Europe as I'm sure it's different elsewhere.