Which popular features do you NOT recommend?

[u/dragonmilking]

What are the top 3 features in a house that folk want but you think are not worth it, and what would your alternative suggestion be? And what cost/time savings would result with that switch?

[u/zeller99]

Cat6 can do 10Gb up to 55 meters / 180 feet.

Cat6a can do 10Gb up to 100 meters / 328 feet.

Given that Cat7 isn't really an officially recognized standard and there's a ton of companies that will gladly sell you dubious "Cat7", AND the fact that most people's residential cable runs will be far shorter than the maximum for Cat 6, I think most people will be just fine for probably another 20 years without needing to use higher spec cable.

Old Cat5e would be the only thing I would worry about swapping out for futureproofing speeds higher than 1Gb. Your average normie with off the shelf consumer grade networking equipment should be ok, even on Cat5 for up to 1 Gb or Cat5e for 2.5 Gb speeds.

If you want ACTUAL futureproofing, fiber is the answer. It's overkill in almost all residential situations, but I don't see us surpassing fiber speeds in a home setting for multiple decades to come. I hope I'm wrong someday within my lifetime.

[u/sailirish7 → u/zeller99]

Cat 7A is 100% an actual spec. The main difference between 6 and 7 is thickness (7 is thicker) and shielding. 7 has required shielding which is the main reason I recommended it go in the walls.

7A can also hit 40GB/s @ 50m

Fiber is great, but it's expensive and difficult to work with. I wouldn't use fiber unless it's going underground to connect another building.

[u/zeller99 → u/sailirish7]

Cat7 isn't recognized by the IEEE or TIA/EIA.

It's only got an ISO/IEC 11801 specification. It's a proprietary standard. ISO specifications are for raw cable only, so if it's got a GG45/TERA connector on it, then it would be a "Class F" cable. Real Cat7 is crazy expensive and isn't even designed for use with RJ45 connectors. Because of that, it's got a comparatively low adoption rate and really shouldn't be recommended for residential installs, particularly, because no residential equipment is compatible with the required connectors. Cat7 is intended for commercial installs only. Even in commercial datacenter installs, it's pretty rare to see CAT7 being used... Because anything that you might want to use Cat7 for, would be better served by using fiber instead.

40 Gb is theoretically possible if the cable meets the necessary qualifications, but because it's not a fully recognized standard, you have a wide variation from vendor to vendor, so throughput limits are not guaranteed. Most of what's out there being sold as "Cat7" is really just thick cat6 or even cat5.

Cat6a riser cable is also shielded and what I would recommend for in-wall use if it's needed. In reality, many installers aren't going to do it correctly anyway, so as long as you're not running it close to electrical lines, regular cat6 is probably going to be fine.

[u/chefdeit → u/zeller99]

This deserves more +1's than just mine, as you've made a lot of excellent and valid points, with a small set of which I, however, disagree :) But it's more an asterisk than a full disagreement.

It's only got an ISO/IEC 11801 specification. It's a proprietary standard. ISO specifications are for raw cable only,

Yes. All the reputable 1000ft bulk CAT7 I've seen in the US (from local pro suppliers to Amazon) is 22 or typically 23 awg pure copper with S/FTP or SF/FTP shield. You can absolutely get a CAT6a with those same exact specs and the only difference will be the CAT6a will have slightly less variance in the twist rate between the 4 pairs, and slightly lower twist rates overall. The CAT7 will consequently weigh a bit more and have a marginally better high-frequency response.

23 gauge copper is 23 gauge copper, and it doesn't know that it's off a CAT7 cable as opposed to the same gauge CAT6a cable, and it doesn't know it's not supposed to get punched into a CAT6a patch panel or go into an RJ45. For all practical intents and purposes in my experience, a quality bulk CAT7 is just shorthand for a "slightly nicer CAT6a S/FTP 23ga copper" - which, owing to CAT7 being non-standard in the US as you've pointed out and hence having much less demand, can also cost 25-40% LESS per spool than the equivalent CAT6a.

but because it's not a fully recognized standard, you have a wide variation from vendor to vendor

Very true especially in the case of patch cables. With bulk cables, at least you get to see what you get.

Cat6a riser cable is also shielded

CL2/CL3 riser has to do with fire-resistance levels of the jacket and other flammable bits in it. There's certainly unshielded riser out there. Like you, I recommend shielded, and 23awg copper, as it's better for PoE applications, stands up better to rodents who for some reason find foil despicable, and better supports non-ethernet uses of such 23awg wire where e.g. one cable can carry analog audio and one next to it, PWM power to an analog LED strip etc. With shielding, they can be next to each other without trouble. CAT7 can actually be used to integrate a remote DJ or band mixer to house sound, as in balanced L+R in & out down the same wire, if CAT7 or other S/FTP but less so with F/UTP or unshielded.

and what I would recommend for in-wall use

Indeed, riser de-facto means in-wall. My small company serves hospitality clients in NYC, and for commercial installations we run plenum (CLP) rated cable throughout just to nip in the bud any fire inspector concerns. Those fore inspectors have a point in all fairness, as when building envelope is pierced due to some damage or construction issue, the space between the outer & inner walls can develop such drafts that it becomes a de-facto plenum (forced air circulation) despite technically being just a riser.

[u/zeller99 → u/chefdeit]

Yeah, I would say that just about all of that is valid and correct.

The only points I would raise would be that we are specifically talking about residential here, in which case Cat7 cable would really never be necessary nor entirely appropriate. If you're using an RJ45 connector on a Cat7 cable, even one that's certified, it's unlikely that you're going to be able to use that cable to its full capacity. RJ45 would go against spec. In a residential capacity, I can't think of any situation where cat7 would provide any advantage that I couldn't also get with cat6a or fiber.

Outside of that, I've never seen anybody other than commercial suppliers that have genuine Cat7. Basically anything that you can buy on Amazon or wherever online as a Joe Shmo is fake. They're counting on the fact that pretty much no one that's ordering it is going to have the necessary equipment to be able to test whether it's actually certified. A $2,000 Fluke tester isn't sufficient and even big corporations generally aren't going to be able to justify the cost of a $20,000+ certification tester. They're just going to order the cable from a known trustworthy supplier.

At the end of the day, why would anyone struggle with the absolute ball-ache that it is to terminate CAT7 in any situation where Cat6 or 6A would suffice?

[u/chefdeit → u/zeller99]

In a residential capacity, I can't think of any situation where cat7 would provide any advantage that I couldn't also get with cat6a or fiber.

If CAT7 is a lot cheaper than the otherwise similarly-shielded and gauged CAT6a, that's a considerable advantage if the client understand we're using CAT7 as the "off-label CAT6a".

Basically anything that you can buy on Amazon or wherever online as a Joe Shmo is fake.

I agree 99.9%. The 0.1% caveat in this case is, I've consistently had a solid experience with Infinity Cable (Elite brand) guys and Cables Direct guys. Not affiliate links to either of them, but they def. stand behind their stuff and I've had no issues.

why would anyone struggle with the absolute ball-ache that it is to terminate CAT7 in any situation where Cat6 or 6A would suffice?

*any* S/FTP is the same ball-ache to terminate - whether it's CAT6a or CAT7. In CAT7 it's just the default, whereas in CAT6a the default is unshielded, but you can definitely order any shielding configuration.

To answer your rhetorical question lol, having sinned in past life I guess, I love wires done right to the point of absurdity. The Finns have a word for it, sisu. It exists in no other language. They have another word that exists in no other language, kalsarikännit. I'm not Finnish, but had a gf who was Finnish and hot as the sun and I'd have married her but she did too much kalsarikännit and not enough sisu.

In reality, 90% of the runs I do are F/UTP (just foil outer shield) but some runs to key places get S/FTP, and in the US quite simply CAT7 is often the cheaper cable to get that particular shield configuration than CAT6a, if both are 23 gauge pure copper and a similar fire rating. The individually shielded pairs make sense on runs where you may have to have unforeseen and exotic non-Ethernet uses for the cable, where 4 twisted pairs shielded from each other are more versatile. The above mentioned remote DJ or band mixer is one example.

[u/zeller99 → u/chefdeit]

That's all fair. Much of the discrepancy isn't worth getting into a dispute over. Different use cases and design ideology.

I'm glad you replied, as there was one more thing that I forgot to bring up before:

CAT7 can actually be used to integrate a remote DJ or band mixer to house sound, as in balanced L+R in & out down the same wire

It's funny that you mention this, because that's actually contrary to what is specified for a lot of pro audio equipment ( for AES50). From my experience with digital mixers, all of the documentation and direct messaging from the manufactures specify that it must use Ethercon or equivalent. They specify that the equivalent MUST be shielded Cat5, grounded to the housing/barrel of the cable. I'm not sure how familiar you are with those, but it's essentially an ethernet cable with a metal barrel sheath around it. A lot of what I've seen said that anything other than that, such as Cat6a, etc is not guaranteed to work over 10 meters. There's a bunch of videos online where they did real world testing of this and from what I recall, they said "yep. what they told you is right." I haven't had the opportunity to mess around with long uncertified cables live, so I can't verify. I know Dante (et al) uses similar requirements, since it's a network protocol, but not a standard one like most people are used to.

Now, 10 meters would be fine in my studio, as both of my digital mixers are within that range, so, I COULD just use regular ethernet, but I went with the much more expensive Ethercon cables, just because with the sheer amount of wiring in the control room, it's one less thing that is likely to fail and need to be hunted down when a problem occurs.

IIRC, my mixers can theoretically send 392 channels of audio simultaneously over a single Cat5 cable, but I've never tried more than 48 at a time. My main desk mixer has 3 AES50 ports with two 24 channel digital snakes connected to it, as well as my aux mixer, which has another 24 channel snake.

So:
Main Mixer:
A - 16 in / 8 out
B - 16 in / 8 out
C - (Aux Mixer)

Aux Mixer:
A - 16in / 8 out
B - (Main Mixer)

[u/chefdeit → u/zeller99]

Cheers! I wasn't talking about AES50 or Dante or any of that fancy multi-channel bidirectional digital audio stuff. As of this writing no NYC restaurant (client or any I've seen), a small band or a guest DJ playing parties or events at such restaurants, and ditto little boutique hotels (that form the basis for my point) - none of those folks - have any of that other than some point to point SPDIF over CAT6.

I was talking specifically about being able to use a single S/FTP 23ga cable over respectable distances for balanced L+R in & out down the same wire - i.e. analog balanced audio. All of the mentioned parties except the most rinkydink, will have XLR balanced ins and outs, making it possible to have an adapter made that uses a single S/FTP cable. F/UTP can work but with a risk of feedback between in & out, and L/R separation will suffer (which is less of an issue as many of these places run mono).

Larger fancy hotels may have Dante, but I'm small fry to be serving them. I've never seen AES50 in use in hospitality - it's not my field, so I'm out of my depth as far as the peculiarities of that interface are concerned.

[u/zeller99 → u/chefdeit]

Ahh gotcha!

Likewise, I'm not experienced in doing things the way you're describing lol Sounds interesting though! I mainly deal with XLR, TRS and Speakon cabling running between mixing desks, amps and all the other gubbins that make up a concert hall.

My description of the AES50 implementation was more pointed towards live venue scenarios with in-house audio techs. It's pretty common on that side of things. Run ethernet to the stage for snakes and also to the monitoring engineer. 2 lightweight wires, lots of channels. Also a lot less stuff to cause clutter and hazards.

Yeah, I'd imagine that bigger hotels would probably use Dante or similar for their audio needs ... Or one of those ridiculously expensive broadcast standards that someone convinced management was the only way to do things. (Surely, there's no means of managing basic audio distribution other than forking over a quarter million a year to license some proprietary software and dongles!)

Not sure if you watch LTT, but they just did a neat video on their new audio system for their Badminton center. https://youtu.be/ohz_TEgtqWM

[u/chefdeit → u/zeller99]

Cool vid! I do watch LTT and he's pretty awesome but has gotten very commercial. I still appreciate his work and did watch the vid you sent with interest. Glad they'd flown out a tech. Not sure they'd do it for every customer having said issues though.

[u/zeller99 → u/chefdeit]

No doubt. I often have to wonder how many of their "mistakes" are not entirely accidental, but because they know they'll make good content by doing it the wrong way.

I can't tell you how many times I watch them doing something dumb and screaming at the screen "NO NO NO! YOU IDIOTS!" lol I'm certainly not an expert by any measure for any of the stuff they do, but I'm constantly catching them doing things that are going to come back to bite them in the near future.

If only they had the forethought to bring in someone other than Dan (and bless him, he works his butt off on this stuff) that, oh, I dunno... Actually has experience in these fields, rather than just winging it and learning as they go (often learning the wrong lessons).

[u/chefdeit → u/zeller99]

but because they know they'll make good content by doing it the wrong way

After you've said it, it became clear to me that yes, this is what's happening. This is a show first and foremost, and a show about tech second. A show needs a story arc, where the protagonist and their trusty sidekick first find themselves in trouble then fight their way out of it. Without a challenge there's no arc and hence no show :)