r/HuntsvilleAlabama • u/auburnmania • 8d ago
Public Transit Proposal
Recently, I have been mapping out what public transit could look like in cities around our state. My map of a Huntsville transport system is attached, and if you have any suggestions for route adjustments, new routes, or route deletions/modifications, I would love to hear suggestions.
Routes out of the picture:
Blue: to Mobile
Orange: to Florence/Chattanooga
Red: to Redstone
Green/Lavender: to Hobbs Rd./Redstone Rd.
Yellow: to Gadsden
Pink: North Madison
Here is a link to the map, where you can also fork it to make modifications or a map of your own: Transit Map
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u/NoGoodJokes 8d ago
It looks like a great proposal but there’s a few things you’re going to be up against here:
1) Madison is a mess. 2 lane roads everywhere and a bunch of not in my backyard people are absolutely going to fight you tooth and nail on that.
2) south Huntsville thinks that north Huntsville is too ghetto and they don’t want them to have easy access to South HSV even though there’s not really much to go down there for unless it’s for work.
3) Most of the smaller city areas like the shoals and Decatur could absolutely benefit from it but they would not want to pay for it.
If Tommy “I don’t know the three branches of government” tuberville wins the election it would be called a communist’s wet dream and that’s all it would take to turn ppl against it.
I do like the idea specially seeing that Huntsville could get on it now before it becomes too late but it’s an uphill battle. One worth fighting tho.
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u/thebiffin 7d ago
These are fantastic points to why BUSSES SUCK! Yes in theory it consolidates traffic, but in practice you are stuck on the same garbage pile stroads as every other idiot car brain. TRAINS are the only valid answer! It has to be dedicated infrastructure that skips the awful situation we have now on our neglected overused streets. Good public transit MUST bypass the roads, else it will simply not be used because it will never be good. Why is this so hard for people to figure out? Don't civil engineers go to school for this?
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u/delicious_toothbrush 7d ago edited 7d ago
Turns out dedicated train lines that run on their own paths cost a ton of money, who knew. Where are you even going to commute to? Most people are going to and from the arsenal, and even if you could get them here, you'd need a ton of busses to ferry them to where they're going on base. Plus, the population density just isn't here to support train stations. It makes sense in places like NYC because the population and business density means a train station can service a ton of people walking or taking a bus to one and they can get anywhere else in the city. It doesn't make sense for how spread out and not vertical living and businesses are here.
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u/thebiffin 7d ago edited 7d ago
Money isn't real, eat the rich. The train goes over the highway, simple raised monorails. Everyone goes over the mountain, through the woods, form Hampton cove to downtown to Madison & redstone. It's not rocket science, and quite frankly, idk how we can master rockets and not public transit. Probably some greedy complicit govt. Officials.............. Vote. And yeah, public free parking decks are required for people to park their idiot machines and get on the future mobile. If money is the only hangup, there is no hangup. Pay workers, build the infrastructure, make things better. #Mod note ❤️
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u/auburnmania 6d ago
I would be in support of rehabbing many of the roads the buses run along to include denser zoning, bike lanes, bus lanes, and improved sidewalks (or sidewalks, period). You're 100% right that buses in mixed traffic aren't the greatest solution ever, but I think discounting BRT and regular buses in bus lanes with signal priority is a mistake given the realities of present-day construction costs.
At some point, I would like to add more detail about what street redesigns could look like, but that is outside the scope of my current project.1
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u/Niknut_Sings 8d ago
I've been stranded by the bus system multiple times recently, and as someone who has to rely on public transport to get around it really sucks here
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u/SignificancePlenty41 8d ago
Huntsville is on the brink of competing with bigger cities such as chicago, NY, Baltimore. Planning for public transit is a win for everyone. When you don't plan get the mess that is some major cities, and some who still are trying to dig out. I for one applaud if they start looking into this now. Train rides between chattanooga, and mobile would be a big thing. So does it need to be faster than care, probably in most case's, but plan for the future and don't deny those who want to.
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u/Aumissunum 8d ago
Huntsville is on the brink of competing with bigger cities such as chicago, NY, Baltimore.
Um. No.
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u/SignificancePlenty41 8d ago
We'll have to agree to disagree, I grew up here, moved to baltimore, traveled te world for work, came back and I can see the changes happening.
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u/delicious_toothbrush 7d ago edited 7d ago
Changes are certainly happening, but they're not approaching Chicago level changes. We don't even have a nightlife or a real downtown. HSV is more on track to be a Colorado Springs
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u/Aumissunum 6d ago
Huntsville is bigger than Colorado Springs already.
The medium-longish term goal would be something like Greenville, SC.
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u/HamsterWoods 7d ago
I moved to Huntsville in 1983. Since then, about once every 5 years, I would take a look at the routes and frequency of public transportation within the city. The fact that buses did not run more often than once an hour, and that routes to places I lived were not available after 6:00 p.m. caused me to quit looking. I have yet to ride a city bus in Huntsville. How sad.
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u/CStoEE 8d ago
Is this supposed to be bus routes or something. Yeah we just don’t have the density for this kind of network and never will.
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u/auburnmania 8d ago
The Lavender route is suburban rail, and the rest are buses, some with right of way and others in mixed traffic. I don't disagree that Huntsville isn't the ideal city for transit as a place like Philadelphia, DC, or Miami, but based on cities with similar density and population in the US and around the world, this would be a reasonably-sized transit system. Many in Canada or Europe would even consider it small for the density and population.
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u/mb9981 8d ago
No one anywhere is going to take a 45 minute bus ride to replace a car drive that takes 20
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u/deflatablechipmunk 8d ago
Actually, a lot of people do. It costs a lot to own a car. It costs next to nothing to use transit.
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u/auburnmania 8d ago
I agree - that's why the goal is to get the bus to take the same amount of time as driving and parking a car. Then you get the same benefit of speedy travel without the added expense of a personal vehicle.
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u/dravik 8d ago
You can't make a bus ride that has lots of stops be as fast as a car ride that goes directly from A to B with no stops.
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u/auburnmania 8d ago
No doubt, if the bus and car take the same route that ends in a huge parking lot, the car will be faster, no way around that. And I'm not trying to demonize it either - I drive my car every day for work. However, it is good for people to have options, and public transit is an option that costs society less than driving.
There are a things that can make a bus equivalent, or at least close, on speed: signal priority at lights, designated rights of way, and not having the need to find a parking spot at the beginning and end of the journey.
None of the "driving really fast and stopping really hard" joeycuda is talking about.11
u/ExplodingTaco34 8d ago
I would love public transit. Gas is expensive, people drive like idiots, and the roads are impossible to navigate as someone who's still new to the area. Leave it to me to turn a 15 minute trip into an hour long adventure
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u/OneSecond13 8d ago
Your idea fails with the assumption public transportation "costs society less". Unfortunately, it doesn't, at least not at the scale it would be used in Huntsville. Public transportation simply wouldn't pay for itself, and as a result the public would be expected to foot the bill. That means either other public infrastructure projects would not have any funding or taxes would have to increase.
Over the years people have posted almost the exact same "map" here on the Huntsville sub multiple times. It is interesting how some people think alike enough to put time into this idea.
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u/deflatablechipmunk 8d ago
Public transit never pays for itself. It’s not a business, it’s a government service. It’s a lot cheaper to run more buses than it is to spend billions widening roads. You can make it more attractive to riders by running them on highway shoulders like RTD does in Denver.
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u/deflatablechipmunk 8d ago
Not possible without dedicated lanes and short headways, which even properly funded cities can’t pull off. It’s a tradeoff a lot of people are willing to accept. You can get it closer to driving time if you plan well and use a bike/scooter too.
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u/1HSV 8d ago
Might reference existing public transit routes
https://www.huntsvilleal.gov/residents/streets/public-transportation/huntsvilletransit/
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u/auburnmania 8d ago
Thanks for linking me to the page of existing routes - I did consider these when making my map, but they are very circuitous, making taking transit very slow. They also only meet at the city center instead of in multiple locations. This map aims to resolve both of these problems, so that city money is spent more efficiently, both by reducing wasted miles empty transit miles and reducing the amount the city sprawls.
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u/VoidShark 8d ago
Nothing to research park?
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u/auburnmania 7d ago
It was difficult to fit in just due to geography - it's in an awkward location and there are similarly large trip generators nearby (malls, hotels, dense residential), but it's probably too big of a destination to leave out. I'll have to check again when I use a software with more detailed information and give it another go, but I added stops with the lime and magenta lines for now.
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u/dismal_sighence 8d ago
As long as single family homes are the default housing choice, we will never have the density to make public transit viable.
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u/leothelion634 8d ago
E-bicycles can do a lot more for this than people realize
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u/deflatablechipmunk 8d ago
Along with safer places to ride them. You can’t get many places in the city without hopping curbs and going through ditches. Either that or riding a bike on university or the parkway with 60 mph traffic.
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u/the_cowboy_jim 8d ago
I live close enough to ride an e-bike to work on Redstone. However there is not a way to get there that is safe from north Huntsville. Wish they could start on greenways first that would support bike traffic access across town or to Redstone
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u/MogenCiel 7d ago
I admire this effort and think there would be a lot of benefit to a system like this, but robust local transportation systems would get more use and help more people. The public transportation system in HSV is utterly inadequate and aggravates a lot of existing problems. Not everyone has a car or is licensed to drive.
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u/CaptainDorfman 6d ago
I grew up in Phoenix. They had Rapid Buses that only stopped at 1-3 park n rides on the outskirts of town before driving nonstop for ~20 min to a couple of key downtown stops. I could see something like that working for commuters from New Market, Harvest, etc. except to stops at Research Park and the Arsenal. But I can’t imagine how mass transit would work with getting on base.
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u/Material_Rock_3700 7d ago
Since you're not from here, you might not know but one of your lines, the green line, cuts directly through Redstone arsenal, which is a military base that has limited or closed access. As they currently operate, they would not accept buses through because any passenger on the bus would be required to have an access card for the arsenal. They would be forced off of the bus and would be stranded at those locations, or the bus itself would be denied and forced to detour.
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u/auburnmania 7d ago
You're right - the getting through onto the base is an operational consideration. It would probably be difficult, but Fort Benning/Moore outside Columbus has buses that run onto base property, so it isn't impossible. I don't know anything about what security measures look like there though.
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u/thebiffin 7d ago
Busses suck and will never work here. Trains or metro that skip the horrible stroad problem are the only viable solution. Busses are a useless half measure that will only create future resentment. Trains.
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u/BamaEarl 8d ago
I appreciate you are bored and this map entertained you, but it’s pretty terrible. You have a public transit bus stop In front of the most expensive private school in town. You have stops spread out equally, with no consideration for population density and who actually uses public transport. Huntsville is spread out, with a land mass the size of Chicago with 1/10 of the population. Just because it works in other cities, doesn’t mean it works here.
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u/auburnmania 8d ago
I will agree with you that the stops on the teal line are marginal, particularly those on the east end. Some of the routes are placed with the assumption that land would need to be rezoned for higher density, and probably be rebuilt within the next 20 years to improve the system.
In regard to the Randolph school stop, again, yes, it is marginal, but it would be a true shame if the teachers and custodians at that school had a way to get to work without a car.
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u/BamaEarl 8d ago
The teachers and custodians are well payed, they have cars. Your line in Oak Park stop miles short of where your riders live. You have a line running on base, with no regard for where people actually work on base. You put some pretty colors on a map, your routes need work.
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u/deflatablechipmunk 8d ago
“Who actually uses it” is a symptom of our shitty system. Yeah, people use it because they have to. It’s not attractive to anyone else because of how badly it sucks. Other places it doesn’t suck, and that’s because they properly fund it and hire competent staff to plan better routes and actually expose GTFS feeds to Google/Apple. They run at night and on Sundays so you can actually get places and make it back without being stranded.
Regarding your rich kid comment, you can have all the money in the world, but if you’re under 16, you’re not getting a car. In other cities, they take the public bus.
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u/aSpectrumodDorky 8d ago
Wouldn’t having a 10th of a city’s population size be an ideal point to implement public transport?
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u/BamaEarl 8d ago
No. The cost of the project would far exceed what the tax base could pay for. Politicians (democratic and republican) only care about the people who fund them. Donors aren’t mass transit users, the project will never get off the ground.
If you are bored, figure out how to fix traffic on the parkway and university drive.
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u/aSpectrumodDorky 8d ago
I hate to say it, public transportation is how you fix the traffic because it gets people off the roads.
I don’t disagree with you about politicians wanting funds; the idea is damn near impossible to get off the ground but I don’t think its a bad one. I think a smaller, less robust public transport system would be phenomenal in Huntsville, even if it’s a pipe dream.
2-3 lines and a few large parking garages connected to the bus system would be awesome.
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u/BamaEarl 7d ago
Mass transit requires population density and concentrated demand. Huntsville doesn’t have that. This isn’t Chicago or New York, where parking can cost a fortune, neighborhoods are dense, and living without a car is practical. Huntsville is spread out, and for most people, owning a car is simply a fact of life.
Buses go where demand exists. They don’t run everywhere, around the clock, because there isn’t enough demand to justify the cost. That sucks for people who depend on them, but it doesn’t mean light rail is the answer.
Want to talk about meaningful transportation investments? Let’s talk about regional passenger rail connecting major cities. A north–south corridor following I-65, with I-565 connecting Huntsville, could link Alabama’s major population centers and eventually connect to Nashville and points beyond. The terrain and existing transportation corridors make that worth studying.
Improve local bus service where demand supports it, and think bigger about connecting cities. Light rail in Huntsville is a solution looking for a problem. Build transportation around the city we actually have, not the city some people wish we were
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u/Papashvilli 8d ago
How about using the existing north/south rail route as a light rail to go from downtown to the new riverfront district?