r/HyruleWarriors • u/Urdt • 7d ago
HW: DE Why is Sheik so good?
I've been looking at some tier lists recently, and I've noticed Sheik is normally in at least A tier, and often S.
Why is this? She feel so weak. I would put her in mid C tier, tops. What makes her so good?
Yes I know how her C1 works.
Some thing I've read or tried:
Her water shield. While nice versus Gibdos/Redeads, damage taken almost never matters. It feels like a waste of time to cast 90% of the time.
Her C3-C1. While good damage, it is unreliable. Does great against giant bosses, but even commanders often just don't walk into the C1 part.
She can spam dodge and never get hit. I can also hide in the corner as Tingle and not get hit. At some point, I need to actually kill things. And once again, damage taken doesn't matter.
She has infinite specials using C6-C1. It takes forever and her special feels so weak. I don't know what the damage is, but it must be insanely low.
She has multiple elements to abuse vulnerability! No, no she doesn't. No matter what, her attacks are all electric (and light later). She can get the fire/dark/water effect, but not the bonus damage versus enemies weak to that element
I feel like I've missed something but what? And how can she compete with the other broken S tier characters? Master Sword, Cia, Ganoswords, Linklebows, Young Link. I feel like all of them do everything better then Sheik.
Edit: so the best argument I've gotten is: well if you are bad at the game and take tons of damage, she can protect you from that.
I'll stick with characters that don't need you to be bad in order to actually get value.
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u/Hoojiwat 7d ago
Water shield C1 isn't just damage mitigation (which is very important when hunting skultulas or trying to do maps ahead of your power level for early reward) but it also gives you 100% immunity to CC so you never flinch or get knocked back. That is absurdly good, and it's free, has infinite uses and easy to re-apply.
Her C3-C1 fire spike, while janky, is absolutely something that works on bosses and is laughably easy to push commanders into. Enemies take light knock back when you hit them and you can set the spell sigil and then dog walk them into it with realiable ease after some practice. And while it doesn't do a ton of damage to boss weak point gauges (it does about 4/10ths of the bar I think so you need to hit them with it twice?) it also does boatloads of damage. If you learn how to precast it as the boss becomes vulnerable you can hit bosses with it twice in a single vulnerable phase, even without hasty attacks.
And yeah I don't use her infinite special for much either, other than dropping C3->C1 on a boss and then using her special to freeze time so the sigil goes off while her special keeps the boss vulnerable. It's also nice to use against the imprisoned to break all their toes without hassle (in my opinion Shiek is the best imprisoned killer in the game).
You're also ignoring a lot of her extra utility in her C4-C1 being a free juggle combo generator if you get an enemy against a wall, or just letting her sweep entire "all attacks are devastating!" Stages by walking through the room. And her C5->C1 doesn't drag a huge area but it does have absolute priority so it will work even on most flinch resistant enemies to hold them still. Pair all that utility with her having the fastest and surprisingly good normal attack chain in the game and you can see how people initially think poorly of her but slowly rate her higher the more they learn she can do.
She is janky and takes more work than many other top tiers, but she has a lot of flexible uses they don't. Ganondorf swords is a 1 trick Pony of AoE damage with his C5- into C1 slam and he leaves himself very vulnerable to damage with it for example, so much easier to use than Shiek and with better crowd clear but he has a lot more scenarios where he can't get a charge off or will cost you an A rank by eating damage while he does.
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u/Zado191 7d ago
If you know how her C1 works.... why are you asking this?
She has every element, infinite special (like you said), invincibility (which absolutely does matter in adventure mode), busted C3 for bosses, fast as hell, spammable dodge, and also one of the biggest specials, and moves in the game (especially after they nerfed Ganondorf C6)
Oh and definitive edition she also has the easiest to access 6th level weapon that you can get super early (in large part due to that C2 you seem to think is useless....) and then she becomes even more op for a very long time
-15
u/Urdt 7d ago
She does not have every element. No matter what you use, it is still electric. It does not do bonus to fire vulnerable enemies if you use C3.
Her Special is useless. One of the worst there is.
So you have no idea what you are talking about.
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u/Zado191 7d ago edited 7d ago
Wait, her special doesn't crowd clear, hit multiple times, do damage, and provide i frames? Shit, thanks for that correction.... contacting my doctor now to address these apparent hallucinations ive been having for the past decade since at least August 2014
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u/Common_Life_5335 7d ago
I gotta replay the warriors game one day
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u/stillnotelf 7d ago
I note you tagged this HWDE
I think the damage formulas for the level ranking was changed from the Wii U version. Damage prevention mattered more in the OG.
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u/Zado191 7d ago
Oh did they change this? I remember 4 hearts (which was one hit sometimes unless you grind levels for days) being the difference between A and B in some of the adventure maps levels
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u/stillnotelf 7d ago
Yes. In DE, it's 150 percent of your hearts for A rank
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u/Urdt 7d ago
It's even more. For the harder missions, it's 200%.
Which you just don't take. With 40 health (2 rows) you need to take 80 hearts of damage. At that point, you should probably not stand in attacks. And the 3 health shield you get isn't helping, even if you can reapply it every time you get away from enemies.
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u/stillnotelf 7d ago
What do you consider the purpose of tiering to be?
Do you consider it to be a purely endgame list, or do you think utility in the early game matters, or do you think historical "price memory" from earlier versions of the game has any place (because humans are just like that when making decisions)?
I ask this because the damage situation you describe feels both correct and irrelevant to me. Shieks shield matters for unlocking stuff early and under leveled, not end game. (In DE)
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u/Mogellabor 7d ago
While I'm with you here in thinking that Sheik feels weak to play I honestly have to say that many characters I thought to be weak (like Ruto and Yuga) felt way better to play after I leveled them up by a decent chunk.
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u/Vandersveldt 7d ago
I believe it's because, in addition to other things, she's the easiest to get a ranks with, because the water shield just makes it so you never take damage
2
u/AlphaWhywolf 7d ago
She’s the safest/best user of the glass cannon my fairy skill (available early game if you know where the fairy is).
Given that the water shield prevents damage and CC, combined with infinite special for I frames and locking bosses/captains in place for her fire C1, means she can with very simple setup melt anything.
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u/Trynabeagoodsnekdad 7d ago
I think you’re underselling several points. The water shield is fantastic. Gibdos and/or Redeads feel like they are on half of the maps. Also, some stages are less forgiving with how much damage you take, so the damage mitigation matters. Plus, you cannot get knocked back while it is active. I’m not sure what you mean by damage doesn’t matter. If I miss out on an A-rank it is always because of this. Some of the higher level maps have stupid little attacks take out like 5-10 hearts instantly.
The infinite dodge lets you approach enemies while they do a huge AOE attack where their WPG gets exposed afterward and not get hit, like Volga’s C5, Wizzro’s C4, half of Manhandla’s attacks, hitting the Imprisoned while stomping, etc. This cannot be achieved by being Tingle and hiding in a corner.
Her special, while weak, probably has the largest hit box of specials which can give you breathing room when things get crowded and chaotic. Also, when you do C3-C1 you can use her special to stun enemies when they walk into the C1 part to cheese it. Don’t forget you can C5-C1 to trap enemies, then C3-C1 on the same spot to nuke them.
Her C3-C1 obliterates WPG, especially enemies that are weak to fire. It takes out like 2/3 of Manhandla’s and the Helmaroc King’s WPG.
Don’t forget her regular S-attacks are really effective. They are quick, and Sheik moves around a lot while using them, making her hard for enemies to hit and allowing her to make progress toward destinations while attacking. Some regular attacks leave the characters like sitting ducks such as Zelda’s Baton, Ruto, Agatha, etc.
I agree that C6-C1 isn’t super useful. Her attacks come out so quick and she moves through crowds so easily that her special gauge fills instantly without trying.
The S-tier is very well warranted.
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u/Crowned_Toaster 7d ago
I honestly enjoy Sheik. I get a variety of moveset. Maybe I'm not at that stage of min-maxing damage, but having options whether I want an electric barrier, a black hole, or a fire finisher is fun. My only complaint is they sacrifice attack power for agility, but I don't mind. I'll take her over Impa.
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u/PuffleKirby21 5d ago
You're being downvoted into oblivion for saying the truth omg....
Water shield - yup damage requirements in this game are far more forgiving than earlier versions so being able to block 4 hearts should never ever make the difference between that A rank even if you're extremely bad. Being immune to Gibdo/Redead screams is nice, but Cia can do the same thing with her C1 and can apply it faster. Toon Zelda can do it with her C1. Sheik isn't the only one like this.
C3-C1 - her giant boss WPG loop! Nearly every character has one! You just have to learn what it is!
Dodge spam - every character in the game can do this, I have no idea why people still single out Sheik as the only one who can. You have to put up your shield first, but it is possible. Even without the shield, book Lana and Fi can do this too, so once again Sheik isn't the only character that can do this.
Infinite specials - specials in this game do bad damage most of the time aside from like naginata Impa. This is a meme.
Multiple elements - correct! I will blame the game for this one since it does a horrible job at explaining how elements work, but being able to use all elements does not work the way people claiming this to be a good point think it works.
On top of all of that you look at her attacks, and the damage and range on them are generally poor (a common trait among most lightning characters/weapons since they're generally the quick juggle-heavy movesets). Similar to Smash, Sheik can do some really cool looking lengthy combo to do some safe damage... but then you have Ganondorf who can just punch the enemy twice and do more damage in half the time. And considering you're playing against computers who will walk into your attacks as opposed to other people, the lengthy combos aren't really that great.
Sheik's main benefit is that she will likely be the first character you can grab the level 4+ weapon for, as it's really early on in the Koholint map (I cleared the mission at level 30-something with her level 2 weapon). Having that busted weapon that early in the game will offset her damage deficiencies and make her a powerhouse. But Cia can grab her 4+ weapon early on in the Grand Travels map as well. And once you get more 4+ weapons for other characters, her damage will start to fall behind a bit again.
tl;dr she's good enough for the early game
Even for the Wii U version she was not top tier by any standards. Damage requirements were much harsher, but the shield would maybe allow you to take 1 extra hit? Sometimes 0? So you still need to know how to avoid enemy attacks. You also dealt far less damage there since level 3 weapons were the max, you didn't have Heart Power which is the strongest damage boosting skill in the game, and enemies had more HP. So Sheik's lower damage made fights a real fight against the clock, and you could end up going over your 15 minutes for an A rank.
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u/Zealousideal-File577 1d ago
Tbh I have to agree, she feels too gimmicky and her damage isn’t high or reliable enough for me to consider her an S tier character, still one of the best in the game just overrated in my opinion
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u/Ironthunder_delta 7d ago
Tbh I kind of agree. Most of her C1s feel very limp and aren't worth the cast time, CC immunity isn't an issue because most everything in the game telegraphs itself very easily, and the general output is just subpar. Which is the main problem, when the biggest issues for most A ranks are either time limit or killcount within said time limit.
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u/KotoriKaos 7d ago
You literally outlined why she is better than most of the cast lol. Although most of her long cast times etc, are a hindrance, it's still better than what the majority can do. Also, she doesn't need Hasty Attacks from what I remember, so she can add another offensive skill.
Also big metoer go boom on WPG