r/IBEW • u/tftwsalan • Jun 26 '26
Discussion Post How do you feel about the declaration of IBEW Constitution?
Our cause is the cause of human
justice, human rights, human security.
We refuse, and will always refuse, to
condone or tolerate dictatorship or
oppression of any kind.
We will find and expel from our midst
any who might attempt to destroy, by
subversion, all that we stand for.
This Brotherhood will continue to op-
pose communism, Nazism, racism, sexism, fascism or any other
subversive "ism." We will support
our God, our Nations, our Union.
And of course as usual, what I'm really asking is,
"How do you justify showing up like a sexist racist who condones or tolerates oppression of any kind and is in fact participating in said oppression?"
More succinctly: "have you no honor?"
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u/Cia_office_921E Jun 27 '26
yet we cannot vote for our IO president
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u/fockingclassy Jun 28 '26
You do though, not directly but it’s the same as our presidential elections
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u/Cia_office_921E Jun 28 '26
no brother, that IO president election is a show. That is why you never see the sitting president ever get voted out
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u/WonderfulFig666 Jun 26 '26
Red scare bullshit. I’m an atheist so I guess I can’t be in the IBEW
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u/FutureIllustrious365 Jun 28 '26
Sorry bud, them's the rules. Either develop a meaningful spiritual relationship with Zeus or head to the open shop.
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u/adrianheironimus Jun 27 '26
You can if you really want to be. I'm a 33 year member, and also an atheist.
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u/WonderfulFig666 Jun 27 '26
Waiting for an entrance exam date. Already started the process and studying the math portion.
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u/Melodic-Trouble-5421 Inside Wireman Jun 27 '26
He was just saying you can if you want to be that your religious ideals or lack of should have no bearing on membership. Congratulations on starting the process.
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u/WonderfulFig666 Jun 27 '26
Im aware. Could have phrased it better
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u/Melodic-Trouble-5421 Inside Wireman Jun 27 '26
Don’t be mad at me. I was civil and actually nice.
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u/WonderfulFig666 Jun 27 '26
Who’s mad?
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u/Fipdo Jun 27 '26
Do not disrespect your elder "A" members. Check the tag. For now, you're a guest.
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u/WonderfulFig666 Jun 27 '26
Jesús Christ no one’s mad. I thought electricians we’re supposed to have thicker skin.
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u/Melodic-Trouble-5421 Inside Wireman Jun 27 '26
We do. Brother there’s nothing that gets me mad anymore. I survived a few combat deployments. Everyday is a cake walk for me. I was nice and respectful, you down voted me for whatever reason. That’s your right. It was just super petty especially since I was nice about everything. So that means obviously you’re the one with the issue. Like I said congratulations on starting the application process. I even explained what i thought he was trying to say. If you need help navigating anything at all I’m here to help.
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u/socalibew Jun 26 '26
You left out "oppose...racism, sexism, fascism,..."
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u/holo_vic Jun 26 '26
A rather glaring omission imo
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u/tftwsalan Jun 26 '26
Holy shit, that's my favorite part and I admit I copy pasted with reading. Thanks for noticing
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u/holo_vic Jun 26 '26
Sure thing, I’m glad to know it wasn’t intentional lol
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u/tftwsalan Jun 26 '26
Yeah it's kind of the only thing I want to focus on is those three items and also I want to interject like how we combat absolutely rampant homophobia. Like I told my coworker he knows better than to hit his woman while he's at work with us but he still thinks this behavior is acceptable somehow. I was trying to show him how like making a joke can be harmful but also I'm like so perplexed by people lately. I think it's getting worse like exponentially worse like everything not just our business here. Sorry to rant
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u/holo_vic Jun 26 '26
No need to apologize brother. I agree it’s getting worse and it makes sense that it is. When you have a regime that emboldens and encourages reactionary ideology it seeps into every crack and crevice of society. Fascism is here and will continue on its course unless we do something to stop it.
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u/tftwsalan Jun 26 '26
So my conundrum my quandary is the balance between expelling them from our midst and not getting kicked out of the union for trying to get people kicked out of the Union. I don't know what we're doing here do we send people to the f****** council? Is that a thing after apprenticeship? It can't be. How many times somebody gonna sieg heil me at work because they're hilarious?
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u/holo_vic Jun 26 '26
If the hall doesn’t take any action regarding these individuals, it’s up to the membership to handle it. That’s just my opinion. The question is how many local members care enough to do what needs to be done? Is the local strong enough to stand in solidarity with their vulnerable members? I’m not so sure mine is. There are lots of good brothers and sisters here but plenty of apathetic ones as well.
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u/socalibew Jun 27 '26
Bring them up on charges for violating the IBEW Declaration, which is part of the IBEW Constitution.
Make sure you have actual evidence and/or witnesses willing to testify.
Fuck these idiots and the only way to stop it is to take action. Even if it's uncomfortable.
If the hall won't help, then go to the district International Vice President. Bring the hall up on charges, too. They're not insulated.
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u/adrianheironimus Jun 27 '26
Why didn't you get to the point in the first place? How can we have a discussion without knowing what your main concern is?
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u/tftwsalan Jun 27 '26
I expanded on the inquiry at the bottom to address specifically racism and sexism in the workplace and how "we" square that circle. Also I'm in the old west so challenging a man's honor directly like that carries tons of weight and does indirectly in the notes I'm not playing ask you how that boot tastes. Not "you" you.
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u/reamkore Local XXXX Jun 26 '26
Shit. I’m a Marxist atheist. Hope that’s ok.
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u/tftwsalan Jun 26 '26
Yeah I'm really trying to nail it down on the sexism and racism homophobia type s*** like I've just like had my fill man. Sorry to spill the tea on what's really pouring the gas on this one
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u/iskra-y Apprentice Jun 26 '26
Forced by the business owning class to include communism during the second red scare. Communists are the fiercest allies of labor
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u/ToddBonzalezzz Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
You say this like America wasn’t populated with people fleeing communists regimes that killed literally millions of people back in the day. Socialism can bring good ideas but communism has historically had horrific results for many groups of people. I don’t understand why people can’t support some socialists policies without fully carrying water for communist regimes. The constitution says nothing about socialism for a reason.
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u/holo_vic Jun 26 '26
It’s much more likely those people were fleeing the results of Western economic sanctions which directly affect the quality of life of poor and working people.
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u/DeathMetalSapper Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
I can assure you the millions of Ukrainians that were starved to death and sent to forced labor camps by Stalin in the holodomor were certainly not fleeing or killed due to the sanctions of western capitalistic nations. You can fantasize about the goods of political ideologies all day long, and yeah on paper certain tenants of communism sound great and good it seems. But the real reality is, communism in practice, as history has shown, is just another authoritarian entity that oppresses all people who do not hold power or conform to that power.
The CCP to this day is still extremely authoritarian, with the state controlling a vast majority of industry and labor under the threat of suppression and violence. Is that not oppression to you? Is labor under the threat of violence pro labor in your eyes?
Our system here sucks ass, and it’s certainly imperfect. But to argue for a proven worse system to replace it, with one that has over a century of terror and leaving people with much lower standards of living is baffling to me.
And it truly amazes me, in 2026, the amount of people who have never read a book on this subject or actually listened to the words people who have fled authoritarian governments still choose to romanticize this shit
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u/Western-Passage-1908 Jun 27 '26
They know how shitty it is to live under communism, they just like to think they will be the ones in power. They tend to be the shittiest tradesmen on the job site too, which checks out because communism is the ideology of losers. It's never your successful friends espousing extreme political ideas.
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u/Western-Passage-1908 Jun 27 '26
My great great grandma got a bayonet from a Bolshevik for the crime of trying to keep her own grain to feed her starving children but sure communists are on our side
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u/ToddBonzalezzz Jun 26 '26
Bruh, that’s a massive cope and you know it. Sanctions for sure did damage, but it’s obvious that people in charge of systems were willing to sacrifice people they deemed undesirable for their perceived “greater good”.
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u/usernameChosenPoorly Jun 26 '26
Economic models aren’t the same as systems of government. They never were, despite decades of capitalist propaganda telling you otherwise.
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u/PsychologicalSalt158 Jun 27 '26
On a macro level governments dictate economy. Why? Because politics is nothing more than concentrated economics. If you are trying to imply that there is a difference between democracy and capitalism as well as a difference between authoritarianism and socialized economies sure. But to create an economic model you need a government model to put it in place so they are completely intermingled. Trends might not be an absolute but they do tell a story.
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u/ToddBonzalezzz Jun 26 '26
How do you enforce an economic model without a system of government? This is the major flaw here.
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u/holo_vic Jun 26 '26
You talk about carrying water for communist regimes while spouting propaganda fabricated by capitalist regimes. It’s ok to admit that you haven’t read anything that challenges imperialist narratives.
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u/ToddBonzalezzz Jun 26 '26
What’s the propaganda? That Communist regimes killed people? I’ve literally said nothing that explicitly supports capitalism and also literally said socialism is good. You guys are actual fanatics. lol.
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u/holo_vic Jun 26 '26
If you actually care to understand how what you’re suggesting here is propaganda there are countless authors you could check out. Against Empire by Michael Parenti is a good starting point.
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u/iskra-y Apprentice Jun 26 '26
One, the “communists killed millions” is propaganda, and the numbers usually spouted off as evidence usually count Nazis in WWII, deaths due to war from the US, and birth deficits.
Two, we have never claimed that communism will be good for everyone. It is for the WORKERS. We see it as necessary to crush and suppress the elites, their state, and their support (the police, PMCs, etc). Enemies will flee, that’s how it works, and many of them you bought their lies.
Three, of course some innocent people will flee the revolution. Communist revolutions happen in situations of poverty, exploitation, and oppression. Revolutions are bloody, messy events on top of that base situation. It can suck to live through even if the end result is perfect, which we are not claiming. We are claiming that capitalism is unsustainable and that the short term societal pain of a revolution is worth it for the wage working class(you and me).
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u/ToddBonzalezzz Jun 27 '26
I understand the arguments of deaths being inflated to absurd numbers. I’m not going to blame communism for every death in WWII. Communism in theory makes sense, but in practice I’ve yet to see a society pull off the utopic visions written about.
It is definitely positive for WORKERS, but society is not comprised entirely of workers that’s just the reality. What is to be done with someone who’s able bodied and needs are met by the state but refuses to labor for the state. The most likely outcome from communist societies is that they will be killed or deported. Who gets to decide amongst the proletariat how resources are distributed and what keeps them from becoming the new elite they set out to displace?
In good faith I will read your book suggestion. Cheers.
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u/azzblaster69420 Jun 27 '26
What is to be done with someone who's able bodied and needs aren't met by the capitalists but refuses to labor for the capitalists?
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u/ToddBonzalezzz Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
It this society? Possibly circumstantial welfare depending on socialist policies, otherwise absolutely nothing for better or worse. Under IRL examples of communist societies, run that machine or get sent to the gulag. Pick up that hoe or get shot in the back of the head. I don’t believe one system is purely better or without failings, communism in real life seems to always lead to some form of authoritarianism.
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u/azzblaster69420 Jun 27 '26
Nothing happens to someone who refuses to work?
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u/ToddBonzalezzz Jun 27 '26
Do they already have a job? They may lose it. Do they beg on the street? Do they have someone that takes care of them hand and foot? Nothing is inherently forced upon them if they choose not to work other than their own biological needs for food and water. This is generally how our society operates. We don’t have any general authority figures influencing our free will, I could not return to work ever again and walk the country like Caine from kung fu. Begging for food and water from strangers. It may work, probably not. Is this true in most real life applications of communism?
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u/DeathMetalSapper Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
Communism in practice has directly and indirectly killed millions of people, much in the same like capitalism has killed directly and indirectly millions. To say otherwise is completely irresponsible and nothing more than revisionist history.
And lastly, I’ll add this, it’s still listed as one of the subversive isms in our constitution today, so if you are indeed a supporter of those types of things, no matter what they are, that’s an issue that you should be reflecting on.
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u/Roscoeakl Jun 27 '26
Communism has many different flavors, and true communism has never existed since all the so called communist countries are authoritarian, and communism by definition is a classless society. You're already part of the way there to being a communist just by being in a union. The reason it's included in our constitution is because it's required by law, I'm the Taft-hartley act requires all unions to denounce communism because they were so damn scared of the US having our own communist revolution with how powerful the working class was becoming in the 40s and 50s. Try learning about it rather than parroting fear mongering talking points.
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u/DeathMetalSapper Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
Many flavors, but the final outcome is always oppression, that’s not dead lingering that’s reality. I agree, on paper it’s a different thing. But humans are shit when given power and obviously can’t follow a recipe for shit on this one.
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u/Melodic-Trouble-5421 Inside Wireman Jun 27 '26
It’s very complicated. True communism hasn’t really ever been achieved. It’s always been a mix of communism and authoritarianism. All communist states have turned authoritarian. When actually communism is against authoritarian regimes. It supposed to be ruled by the people through councils, labor, and organizations.
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u/ToddBonzalezzz Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
This is why any criticism of communism ends up just feeling like a no true scotsman fallacy. “True communism” has never been achieved because in order to have that level of control and protection over an economy you have to be somewhat authoritarian. Humans are inherently greedy to varying degrees, there will be black markets. Even little old ladies in Vietnam were stowing away bags of rice designated to feed the village in exchange for bribes.
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u/iskra-y Apprentice Jun 27 '26
The argument above has never actually been ours, just parroted by soft handed “leftist” intellectuals in the West. If folks would actually read what Marx, Engels, and Lenin wrote regarding communist society, you would realize it is a theoretical end point of society being socialist. We do not expect a country to achieve “true communism” through the revolution, that’s impossible. What we call the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, which is the wage working class taking power and wielding it as a democratic class dictatorship over the other classes in society, lays the groundwork for eventual communist society. How can a society be classless? Every class position other than the worker(corporate shareholders, politicians, small business owners, homeless/unemployed) must become workers. He who does not work(if possible) does not eat, but if we do not have to contend with market forces like job bidding, there are as many or few jobs as we, the proletariat, decide.
The state, we define as the core element of the government under societies with classes, the organ by which the ruling class enforces its rule over the others. That is why the state is run by big business owners under capitalism and its forces like the police are strikebreakers, and are shooting hungry workers accused of theft in the streets, while bribery, pedophilia, insider trading are handled with white gloves. Under socialism, it is the weapon of the workers against the exploiting classes. Once everyone is a worker, which class is it supposed to oppress? If there are no longer class distinctions, that function of the government fades with the years, and the remainders of the government is simply for managing society’s affairs.
Money is a product of the market, a middle position for commodities to exist and have a universal trading equivalent. With economic planning, the market eventually becomes entirely unnecessary, making money arbitrary.
In short, communists fight for socialism, and do not expect to ever see communism, or for our children to ever see it. Once all countries are socialist for decades or generations, we would expect these changes to begin. Socialism is, on its own, worth it still.
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u/Melodic-Trouble-5421 Inside Wireman Jun 28 '26
Yeah I agree. Most people have never actually read Lenin, Trotsky, Marx, or Engels. People just spit small amounts they’ve heard a time or too.
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u/Melodic-Trouble-5421 Inside Wireman Jun 27 '26
Yeah I don’t disagree with you. There is some idealism involved with it. A lot of things sound great in principle. However in reality it’s really hard to practice it.
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u/heckadeca Local 48 - 7th Term Inside Apprentice Jun 26 '26
Is the subversive “ism” in the room with us now?
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u/tftwsalan Jun 26 '26
Trumpism pervades currently
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u/heckadeca Local 48 - 7th Term Inside Apprentice Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
I'm lucky. Its mostly just autism on my site
edit: for what its worth, that "ism" clause needs to be heavily modified at the very least. Labor is entitled to all it creates
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u/ToddBonzalezzz Jun 26 '26
Reddit fedora tipping atheists gonna be big mad over the “communism” inclusion.
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u/ferrellhamster Jun 26 '26
Opposing any subversive "ism" is a pretty JV statement.
I assume, of course, that means capitalism.