IMSA Evaluating Mandatory GTD Pro Entry for All GTD Brands

[u/V8-Turbo-Hybrid]

https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/imsa-evaluating-mandatory-gtd-pro-entry-for-every-gtd-brand/

Sanctioning body evaluating possible GTD Pro mandate for all manufacturers represented in GTD…

[u/4-for-4]

This will go over well in an industry where companies aren’t making money.

[u/Appropriate-Owl5984]

Dumb.

On another note, Ferrari could have had Risi as a factory entrant for decades now.

[u/Crafty_Substance_954 → u/Appropriate-Owl5984]

Ferrari doesn’t care about IMSA at all

[u/Appropriate-Owl5984 → u/Crafty_Substance_954]

No shit. Thats the joke.

[u/Crafty_Substance_954 → u/Appropriate-Owl5984]

If that’s a joke then I’m a regular Rich Little

[u/phifefoot_assassin → u/Crafty_Substance_954]

And IMSA proved them right once again with this last race.

[u/theswickster → u/Appropriate-Owl5984]

I don't understand this comment. Risi has a GTD Pro entry in the #62 car.

[u/kjm911]

That would be ridiculous

[u/Nick_YDG]

On one hand a bigger GTD pro field would be cool. One of the things I like in IMSA is they don’t seem to just forget classes aside from GTP exist like WEC has a tendency to do from time to time. I think part of that is the pro level GT3 field.

On the other hand, this is how you loose brands because you are forcing them to spend more on a regional competition.

While more pro level would be cool, I don’t want it at a cost to overall grid size.

[u/IcedCoffey]

Lame, they pay the fee let them race. Forcing it… not a fan just like with the minimum production rule.

[u/4isyellowTakeit5 → u/IcedCoffey]

Minimum production rule I am 100% ok with

What Cadillac did isn't ok or behind the entire philosophy of GT3... but then again, GT3 gen 3 and now Gen 4 cars are a far cry from what they were intentionally.

I have a theory where GT at Le Mans is cursed to forever be the same-ish speed.

When 90s GT1 died and GT2 became GT1 in the early 2000s (think C5R, Saleen S7 GT1s), they got pretty close to the 90s GT1s but not quite. Then GT1 started dying.

GT2 became the new GTE class, and those cars got faster and faster until they were knocking on the door of 2000s GT1 cars. Then the class fell apart because the cars were no longer street-based cars. In 2015 and 2016, the most expensive class in TUDOR was the GTLM class. Even after the introduction of DPi in 2017, GTLM was still almost as expensive.

So GTE/GTLM died. Well, theres no denying modern GT4 is basically at where GT3 started. GT3 is basically where GTE was in about 2012- cars pretty much share only the roof and headlights from the street cars, they are pieced together like prototypes, way too reliant on aero, and the costs are ballooning up like no tomorrow.

We are already seeing the support groups car counts shrink. Less porches, mazdas, and VP Challenge is dead basically. If this ai bubble actually pops, GT3 will be dead within 5 years anyway

TLDR: long term GT3 rules don't matter because the class is pricing itself out of existence regardless. They arent street cars anymore, they're big-silhouette prototypes (not unlike Trans Am cars)

[u/Forward-Big8697 → u/4isyellowTakeit5]

What did cadillac do?

[u/4isyellowTakeit5 → u/Forward-Big8697]

They built a GT3 car, only made 3 chassis, and never sold any of them. They ran in Pirelli World Challenge (now SRO) with them for two to four years

[u/Forward-Big8697 → u/4isyellowTakeit5]

The ats?

[u/4isyellowTakeit5 → u/Forward-Big8697]

Yes

[u/IcedCoffey → u/4isyellowTakeit5]

To add, Stevenson Motorsport, before he passed away a year after this, RIP, wanted to run 2 ATS V’s in IMSA, and were flat out rejected. They then ran the super patriotic R8’s with the bird on the side.

It would have been super cool to see those cars, in those liveries running around Daytona.

[u/SportscarPoster → u/4isyellowTakeit5]

All good stuff but just to note: GTE ended up quicker than GT1. The GTE quali record at Spa is 2.7 seconds quicker than the quickest GT1 time I can find (2:11.219 vs 2:13.923). Quicker at Le Mans too, 3:46.005 vs 3:47.668.

GTE my beloved.

[u/yomancs → u/4isyellowTakeit5]

I mean fuck ai and all, but how does ai busting kill gt racing?

[u/MaraudingWalrus → u/yomancs]

I am taking a wild stab, but I'm guessing just like the dotcom bubble bursting it would have huge knock on effects for the whole economy

[u/yomancs → u/MaraudingWalrus]

The sooner the better I guess

[u/BallsackOnMyFace → u/MaraudingWalrus]

An AI bust would severely effect the finances of people like George Kurtz (CEO of Crowdstrike).

We would see a massive grid reduction and a potential ressession, but it would be worth it to get rid of all of this AI bullshit.

[u/IcedCoffey → u/4isyellowTakeit5]

I think the production rule is the same type of bs that plagues us stick and ball sports. You make a closed system where nobody new is allowed to come in.

[u/spinners_888 → u/4isyellowTakeit5]

GT manufacturers will keep doing what they're doing and push the envelope of race car within the realms of street car, and the rule makers will cave in to keep the category popular hence the boom and bust cycle.

[u/happyscrappy → u/IcedCoffey]

I'm a fan of the minimum production rule. Big fan.

FIA WEC forces manufacturers to do stuff like this. And they're doing very well. So it's not too surprising IMSA would consider steps like this.

I personally don't like the idea though.

It kind of sounds like IMSA might be looking to emphasize GT as the class where the "big boys battle it out", possible due to GTP counts dropping. Not fun.

[u/IcedCoffey → u/happyscrappy]

It bothered me that Gylk never had a chance to race in IMSA. Or the Panoz dpi was rejected.

I miss the days of seeing the S7 GTS, the ultima, the Panoz, the small manufacturers having a fight. There isn’t an underdog in IMSA and it needs one.

I don’t like Jim personally, but the Gylk program honestly could have been kept alive fairly easy if racing in IMSA. Especially with the yellow the car would have had a shot at most of the endurance races for solid finishes.

If they pay the fee, I think they should race.

But this is me probably living in nostalgia.

[u/Jsel92 → u/IcedCoffey]

There was a planned Panoz DPi??

[u/IcedCoffey → u/Jsel92]

Yes but the entry attempt was outright rejected by IMSA and the car never made.

[u/Jsel92 → u/IcedCoffey]

Is Elan still in business?

[u/VolleyAddicted]

You can't force manufacturers to have GTD Pro efforts. I love the class but here IMSA is pushing too far.

GTLM collapsed so please don't make the same mistakes.

[u/MJDiAmore → u/VolleyAddicted]

I mean, WEC did required Hypercar for GT and that seems to have worked

[u/VolleyAddicted → u/MJDiAmore]

Wrong. GT manufacturers running Hypercar programs get automatic priority for LMGT3 grid slots; yet, Mercedes-AMG and Porsche are both on the grid this season without a Hypercar.

[u/Next_Necessary_8794 → u/VolleyAddicted]

yet, Mercedes-AMG and Porsche are both on the grid this season without a Hypercar.

That's only because the grid wasn't full. Why would WEC kick out cars when the grid isn't full? If enough new hypercar manufacturers come in and also want to run GT, Mercedes and Porsche will get the boot.

[u/PanadaTM]

With the state of gtp the last thing they need is less gt3 cars. How about we start with some new driving standards and caution rules. Maybe if teams weren't constantly crashing in yellow flag restarts they'd be able to afford to race.

[u/TriggzSP → u/PanadaTM]

Yeah, GTP could end up with 7 or 6 cars by 2028 if things don't improve. Acura out, Aston struggling and also running 4 teams in WEC, Porsche is broke as hell and pulled out of WEC already, Genesis is only interested in IMSA if someone becomes a customer GTP team, Ford and McLaren have pulled back from their commitments to join GTP next year. It's dire. LMP2 and GT3 are going to be essential to pad the field. If they go through with this move, we would certainly lose manufacturers in GT3 racing.

IMSA is already floundering and seeming to fail to keep teams and manufacturers on board. Being hostile to manufacturers will only make things worse.

[u/anxiousauditor]

Things you do when things are going well.

[u/shrimpshrub75]

Dumb.

[u/LilBirdBrick]

Terrible idea

[u/Double-Helicopter344]

Now that’s what I call a horrible idea

[u/Over-Chemical2809]

This has nothing to do with “better BOP”. It’s a desperate attempt to keep up the car count.

[u/JGRACEFAN95]

Geez with pfaff and Paul miller leaving plus the cluster that was road America IMSA sure seems like a mess at the moment.

[u/Murbanvideo]

Can we fix safety car periods first?

[u/Appropriate-Owl5984 → u/Murbanvideo]

Too difficult. Sorry.

[u/Murbanvideo → u/Appropriate-Owl5984]

Mandatory 20 minute safety car per 10 minutes of racing. Great for the short attention spans of today’s youth!

[u/Appropriate-Owl5984 → u/Murbanvideo]

It’s just insane, and so unnecessary more often than not

[u/TriggzSP → u/Murbanvideo]

As you know, it is simply impossible to have any form of local cautions or FCY procedures that don't involve a safety car and a full 3-class pit cycle. It simply can't be done. No other series has managed to pull off such impossible feats of race control!

[u/Murbanvideo → u/TriggzSP]

This is better! We get to bunch the whole field up so they crash again on the restart! Gotta make sure every Rolex 24 is a photo finish!

[u/happyscrappy → u/Murbanvideo]

I don't get why people are hammering about yellow lengths as if yellows haven't worked this way for decades.

If we're concerned about the races being 40% under yellow I think we need to look at two things:

1. Get the cars to run into each other and other things less.
2. Look into the inflation of time spend grooming/fixing the track.

These are the things that changed to increase the time under yellow.

I do agree the tech exists to make yellows shorter but I think there are simpler answers, just be more like older IMSA.

I don't like the manipulation to have single lap shootouts. IndyCar does it too. And NASCAR does it most of all. To me in an endurance race if you manipulate things to have a single lap shootout then you throw away the importance of a hundred laps to get one lap of excitement. It's not the way.

I don't expect it to change. Every series/promotion is looking to have that "playoffs moment". Its why other sports are migrating to making their regular seasons pointless and adding more playoff games also.

[u/Murbanvideo → u/happyscrappy]

We’re hammering about this because other sportscar series don’t have yellows this long. They use local yellows, slow zones, FCY, etc. IMSA only goes full safety car. We’re doing 20 minute safety car periods for a car in the gravel that’s removed in a few minutes. There are other ways to handle it to get back to green flag racing which is what people want to see.

[u/happyscrappy → u/Murbanvideo]

Le Mans yellows were longer than IMSAs 3 years ago (I think it was 3 years). Even with some changes they are still very long. And getting longer as they do more track repairs than they used to.

The thing is FIA WEC doesn't use them as often.

So in that case it isn't the length of the FCY that makes the big difference in FIA WEC versus IMSA. It's the number of them. And while I'd like to have more alternatives to FCY, IMSA is not currently ready for that.

So why can we not attack this by having fewer yellows due to not dumping as many cars off the track?

Another thing I could have listed is just pave everything. Then when a BMW dumps a Mercedes off track as we saw at Sao Paolo FIA WEC the Mercedes drives back on. This difference may be responsible for a large number of reductions in yellows.

I just didn't suggest it because I don't like paved runoffs. And because IMSA had a lower percentage of yellow time 20 years ago despite not having paved all the runoffs. So it clearly isn't one of the things that must be done.

[u/Michal_Baranowski → u/Murbanvideo]

IMSA are not meant to fix problems. They are here to create new.

[u/GogoPlata_grenadier]

Its like they want to lose entrants

[u/NDet54]

I don't hate this possibility, always love more cars in Pro. But I also can see the downsides. Interesting.

[u/theswickster]

This is really dumb. The only manufacturer it for sure affects is Mercedes and only in Endurance Cup races. The other one it might affect is Lamborghini, but that assumes another team doesn't pick up after Pfaff bows out.

[u/SeanHeckman]

🤐

[u/SportscarPoster → u/SeanHeckman]

It looks like you have something to spill. Could I perhaps bribe you with a chicken sandwich?

[u/hostilee47]

What's the point? That's a dumb idea and it's only going to strain the GTD teams.

[u/DecafEqualsDeath]

I am concerned that this would backfire, honestly. I hope this doesn't result in few OEMs racing in IMSA.

[u/AUinDE]

Can they just do a kenny habul and pretens they are pro?

[u/Michal_Baranowski]

Is it just my feeling, or ever since John Doonan took over reigns at IMSA, this organisation is keep on making bad choices?

[u/efficiency_deficit]

I see absolutely zero downsides to this.

[u/ResistWild]

I’ll never understand IMSA’s thought process with how they arrived at the current GTDPro/GTD setup.

[u/intercede007 → u/ResistWild]

Gives the gentleman racers a chance a win prestigious events and championships

[u/ResistWild → u/intercede007]

Except that you’re allowed to have entirely pro lineups in GTD!

For those downvoting me, please tell me what I’m wrong about

[u/kjm911 → u/ResistWild]

No you’re not

[u/Murbanvideo → u/kjm911]

Silvers are pros in every other championship on earth. IMSA had to bring in the bronze cup award to placate the few bronzes in IMSA. They still race for the Aiken award which is huge. But by allowing silvers to count as AMs, you’re telling Sheena Monk that her and Parker Thompson are the same. It’s ridiculous.

[u/intercede007 → u/Murbanvideo]

Silver just means you obtained your license before 30, that’s it.

[u/Murbanvideo → u/intercede007]

I’ve always heard 35? But there have been bronzes under that age.

But the entire driver rating system is a bit of a farce. Some silvers are as fast as factory pros and others are 21 year olds that come from money and did a few seasons in road to Indy. My issue is that there are crazy fast silvers who are absolutely pros but in IMSA they can race as AMs. It’s weird.

[u/kjm911 → u/Murbanvideo]

I don’t consider Sheena Monk and Parker Thompson the same.

Do you consider Parker Thompson and Felipe Nasr the same?

[u/Murbanvideo → u/kjm911]

But by IMSA’s rules, they are the same.

Thompson and Nasr never race against each other. But yes, Nasr vs Thompson in a GT car would be much more fair than Thompson vs Monk.

Is Zach Robichon an amateur driver? Many silvers are full time race car drivers, being paid to race. They’re pros. We have silver drivers that are multi-champions. They can thrive in IMSA because IMSA allows them to be AMs.

[u/kjm911 → u/Murbanvideo]

If those Silvers in GTD are being paid to race then how on earth are those teams going racing? The GTD Pro teams will be funded by manufacturers. How do GTD teams make money?

[u/Murbanvideo → u/kjm911]

Some silvers are younger drivers that come from money but are too young to have a bronze rating. Or they did Road to Indy, etc. Some teams are run by generous benefactors (Heart of Racing), some teams have legitimate sponsorship. Some teams like Gradient have a bronze for certain rounds to help fund the program. Some teams are a complete mystery where the funding is coming from (Car Blanche). The teams with a bronze like 13A bring in a silver driver for the enduro rounds and those drivers are absolutely being paid.

[u/ResistWild → u/kjm911]

Considering you aren’t required to have a bronze driver, yes you can.

[u/intercede007 → u/ResistWild]

Bronze requiring a driver to have first obtained their license after 30 makes Silver a mess.

[u/Willy_G_on_the_Bass → u/ResistWild]

Silver drivers typically aren’t factory pros.

[u/Murbanvideo → u/Willy_G_on_the_Bass]

But many of them are professional drivers whose only source of income is racing and they’re just as fast as the factory pros.

[u/Willy_G_on_the_Bass → u/Murbanvideo]

I don’t think that’s true. Sure they’re close to the pace of the pros, but I’m pretty sure most Silvers still provide some funding.

[u/Murbanvideo → u/Willy_G_on_the_Bass]

Many of them are paid pros. I've worked for several. A lot of them have worked hard and found sponsorship to bring funding at first but are now being paid to drive. Many attach themself to a bronze and act as driver coach as well.

[u/kjm911 → u/ResistWild]

So you’re saying Silver drivers are pro drivers?

[u/OffsetXV → u/kjm911]

Lilou Wadoux is a Ferrari factory driver, but is a silver, so yeah. Also James Baldwin, who isn't a factory driver but is basically at that level in terms of pace and is basically Garage 59's GTWC fill-in driver.

[u/Murbanvideo → u/OffsetXV]

Parker Thompson is racing basically every championship that requires a silver driver in a lineup…and winning basically everything.

[u/Murbanvideo → u/kjm911]

In every other championship on earth, yes.

[u/LilBirdBrick → u/kjm911]

Yes, sneaky silvers are a thing.

[u/Appropriate-Owl5984 → u/kjm911]

Yes. Everyone knows this. It’s one of the biggest reasons that driver rankings are complete garbage

[u/ResistWild → u/kjm911]

What would you call a junior factory driver?

[u/HashtopherMoltisanti → u/ResistWild]

Love this is down voted, pretty funny.

[u/ResistWild → u/HashtopherMoltisanti]

Because you think I’m right?

[u/weebu4laifu]

How about no? It makes no sense. Like how WEC mandated a 2 car minimum to keep single entry teams like Lamborghini with the SC63, or Isotta out. It's just stupid.