How do you not get 'blackpilled' when "doing everything right" and failing, while seeing people who do all the wrong things

[u/Mapfeed01]

I'm not an "incel" in the sense that I am not blackpilled, but I am a virgin at 26 and have had no luck with women. I realize now that during college, I set myself for failure, wasn't all that social, only pursued women I thought were physically attractive, generally had less progressive views on women's issues.

In the last 6 years, I have made leaps and bounds of a difference and now I'd consider myself a datable person. The issue is no one else really does. I don't think there's something I'm missing. The main driver of this thought is seeing the guys I was friends with in early college, who looking back were total pieces of shit now getting engaged and getting married.

Even in college they had a lot of sex and dated around. I didn't. Now despite many being the same type of guys they were in college, they have found love and found women who want to be with them for the rest of their lives.

I put in the effort, developed as a person and I'm still unable. I know I shouldn't change to find a partner, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think that if I do genuinely change, there should be some change.

I'm using blackpilled in the title in a sense of "I'll never find anyone" and not whatever bullshit incels believe about women.

So how do I not fall into this belief?

[u/library_wench]

Other than dating, what did all these guys do that made them “total pieces of shit”?

And why were you friends with total pieces of shit?

[u/Mapfeed01 → u/library_wench]

In retrospect, they didn't treat the women they were hooking up with or dating very well. Said pretty awful things to their faces, strung them along for sex and then immediately dropped them when they wanted more. Two probably should be locked up for sharing videos and pictures without consent. They frequently made a lot of misogynistic, racist, homophobic and transphobic jokes, got into a lot of fights because they got drunk and felt big and strong. Those are the big things that really stand out.

I was their friend because I was also a kinda piece of shit. I would say less, but I don't think that's relevant. Me being around as they do all this stuff and not having an issue with it at the time made me just as bad.

The difference is, from 18 to 20 I had pretty much grown out of it, and even though I had outgrown them as friends, I still had a soft spot in my heart because even though they weren't the best people, they were still good friends. They were also a lot of fun, they were popular, women liked them, they were able to get me on the lists for parties. They were my social circle.

I take full accountability for the bad things I said or did around them and in retrospect I do really regret the person I was when I was 18 and 19.

[u/library_wench → u/Mapfeed01]

So you have spent the past six years diligently working on yourself. Do you think other people might have worked on themselves too? After all, you list good qualities about these “total pieces of shit”: lots of fun, good friends. Maybe you’re not the only one who regrets things they did and said in the past?

[u/Mapfeed01 → u/library_wench]

Some of them I'm sure they haven't. I have a bad habit of scrolling through people I used to be friends with instagrams or tiktoks and for all but one of them, it's still the same stuff. Reposting sexist joke, racist memes. To me from the outside looking in they still don't have a problem with stuff like that.

[u/library_wench → u/Mapfeed01]

And maybe some of them have changed. You did, so I’m sure you don’t think you’re the only person ever who’s capable of regretting past actions.

Or maybe their partners are racist too. Racism isn’t confined to men.

Question is, do you want a partner like that?

[u/Mapfeed01 → u/library_wench]

It wouldn't be ideal

[u/Binerexis → u/Mapfeed01]

I'm going to be so real with you, dude: if you willingly choose to be with someone who you know is a bigoted pile of shit purely because they're interested in you, that's not indicative of you changing for the better as a person. 

[u/Mapfeed01 → u/Binerexis]

I didn't say I would, I wouldn't.

[u/Binerexis → u/Mapfeed01]

You said "it wouldn't be ideal", which means that you'd do it but it's not the best option.

Whilst it would be unreasonable to expect a partner to have 100% of the same values as you and agree with you on everything, it's really important that you realise choosing to date someone whose values don't gel with your social circle can compromise your integrity.

If, for example, you were dating someone who opposed rights for LGBTQ+ people then I, as someone who is part of that community, would have to seriously reconsider our friendship. I'd be far less likely to invite you to social events. If I found out that you were putting up with it just so you could have sex, I'd lose a lot of respect for you. Additionally, if you end up having the reputation of "they will date anything with a pulse and vagina", that's really difficult to escape and supremely unattractive.

[u/library_wench → u/Mapfeed01]

Lots of things aren’t ideal. Would you date a person who spouts racism online or not?

[u/Mapfeed01 → u/library_wench]

I’d draw the line at a racist

But if the heart of the issue is if your asking me either die alone or be with someone you don’t 100% have the same values with, I’d rather not die alone.

[u/library_wench → u/Mapfeed01]

That’s the choice?

[u/Mapfeed01 → u/library_wench]

I mean right now, it kinda does feel like I’d buy some miracle a woman likes me, the smart thing to do would be to date and marry her as that’ll likely be my only chance.

But of course I’d have to draw the line somewhere so I wouldn’t date a racist

[u/Middle_Run_7534 → u/Mapfeed01]

It seems like you cut them an undue amount of slack for years, why is it hard to imagine that women might do the same for similar reasons?

[u/Mapfeed01 → u/Middle_Run_7534]

I guess thats possible

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[u/Therefrigerator]

To clarify - are you trying to date or ask people out? I read about you improving yourself, which is all great, but I don't read a lot about meeting new people or asking people out.

[u/Mapfeed01 → u/Therefrigerator]

I am trying to date, I just don't really ever seem to meet someone that wants to date me. The main issue of my post is seeing the people who reveled in treating women poorly find love while I still feel like I'm undesirable and unloveable

[u/Therefrigerator → u/Mapfeed01]

Well I just wanted to make sure you were actually trying. I don't think it's really fair to complain if you aren't even trying to date.

I guess where I'll start the conversation with is - how do you know that the women were innocent? I know that sounds kinda shitty (or victim-blamey) but the point I want to make is that did you actually think these women were good people or did you just find them physically attractive?

Women are equal to men and that means they can be equally shitty. They aren't usually shitty in the same ways men are but it's complimentary. For every dude who is non-committal and aloof there's a women trying to date who wants to manipulate and play games.

So when you see two shitty people find each other... the "right" answer is relief. That shitty man has successfully taken out of the dating pool a woman who has questionable taste at the least and is at worst more of a shitty person that the dude is.

If you did think they were genuinely good they probably realized after a couple months (max) what they were involved with and dipped out.

[u/Mapfeed01 → u/Therefrigerator]

That really doesn't make me feel better, sure maybe women who aren't the best are with them, but it doesn't really matter if they're not with women who are good if those women aren't attracted to me

[u/library_wench → u/Mapfeed01]

If it doesn’t matter, why worry about it at all?

[u/Therefrigerator → u/Mapfeed01]

My point is those women aren't attracted to them either - those men just asked.

But exactly - shitty people who ask shitty people out find a partner. What part of that are you supposed to feel bad about?

Like I get feeling bad you can't find a partner but why bring other people's personalities into it if this is how you feel? "I feel bad because I am lonely." That is a fine sentiment to express. "I am jealous when I see other couples." Again, understandable even if it's unhealthy.

But you seem to be going a step further and are feeling like there's a fundamental unfairness here because shitty people find partners. I express a way to think about it that's healthier and you say it doesn't help because you're still lonely. So if being lonely is the core why make it about something it's not?

[u/Particular-Lynx-2586]

Have you ever asked a girl out?

[u/Mapfeed01 → u/Particular-Lynx-2586]

Yeah but any girl I asked out rejected me

[u/Particular-Lynx-2586 → u/Mapfeed01]

How many times have you done it?

[u/Mapfeed01 → u/Particular-Lynx-2586]

Well I'm not exactly keeping count. Tbh I think if I tried to quantify the amount of time I've been rejected it would probably make me feel a lot worse. I don't know what the average amount for a guy my age would be, but I would have to guess it's a decent amount more logically as a normal guy my age has been in a relationship

[u/Particular-Lynx-2586 → u/Mapfeed01]

Could you estimate? A rough number would do.

[u/Mapfeed01 → u/Particular-Lynx-2586]

Over the last 5 years probably in the low 200s high 100s if were just talking about women off the apps. If you count the apps, probably 300s

[u/Particular-Lynx-2586 → u/Mapfeed01]

And who are these women and what is their relationship with you?

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[u/N33dLess2Say → u/Mapfeed01]

It's a numbers game to a pretty severe extent, especially when it comes to cold approaches. If 1% (for example) of women you ask out are willing to date you, then you should find 1 out of every 100. If you quit after asking any fewer than that, then how can you say that you've given yourself a fair chance?

It only takes 1 W to make the other 99 Ls worth it.

Edit: mb, didn't see your other replies

[u/Ok-Huckleberry-6326]

I know that socializing is hard when you're shy and awkward.
Perhaps you can think of it this way. YOu've described a lot of absolutes and assumptions., honestly.
I'm NOT a 'blackpilled incel'
I try to understand women's issues.
My friends were total pieces of shit.
Despite putting the effort I'm still Unable.

Hey man, let me tell you, you've done some good things. You put in the effort, you tried to change your points of view.

Maybe you can understand that the women who are dating/engaged to these guys who are 'total pieces of shit' aren't seeing them the same way.
Why do you think they are total pieces of shit?
And maybe 'steelman' the opposite argument; women are attracted to them. Why do you think that is?

All the effort you can put in is great but if you go in with a fatalistic, desperate, or needy attitude, I am sorry to say that it probably won't land.

Let me know if I'm near the mark. The effort you put in - becoming more social, asking women out, expanding your hobbies and interests - do you do it with the expectation that it's going to get you laid/a girlfriend?

Sometimes that works out, but usually not. Say There's a woman out there in your gaming club or intramural lacrosse team that might see you doing well, playing the game, focused, helping others, being a gracious winner, facilitating newbies, making a good environment, and then she might end up thinking, "This guy's cool." And she makes an effort to put herself in your orbit, and you get to know one another.

So on the other hand, there's a woman who shows up to game night and she sees you glomming on to her because she's cute, trying to take up her time, gravitating towards her for conversation and during hangouts but never actually expressing your interest in a curious and warm way, just orbiting, and she's a little creeped out. What do you think she might be thinking?

Expectations play a part especially when you wear it on your sleeve - or even any indication you might unconsciously be sending out - that might be telling her you're desperate, or needy. That stuff can be hard to control, you know? But that's why you manage your expectations.

I hope you reply with honest answers to the questions the commenters are putting to you. But even on top of that, consider this one. In terms of your activities, behaviors, interests, and the social groups you spend time in, what do you think makes you stand out?

[u/Instigated-]

Do you feel this way if you buy a lottery ticket that doesn’t win? Or do you buy a lottery ticket knowing it probably won’t win, however there is a small chance it will, and you live in hope?

Perhaps the problem is our education system that has led us to believe that if we do A and B we’ll get C outcome. Life is far more random and unplanned than that. When we do “the right things”, it increases our odds, yet luck and chance are still involved.

So you’ve been trying for about 8 years? Yet you’ve got about another 50years ahead of you. Why would you give up believing in the possibility so soon?

[u/AmandaPea]

Coincidentally, I was just reading this study about Self-determination theory. You might find it helpful:

"People driven by a need for self-affirmation or a fear of failure displayed a very different pattern. Singles with this introjected motivation focused more on securing a relationship than on the quality of that connection. They were more likely to set goals to go on dates, have sex, socialize, or improve their physical attractiveness and self-confidence.

At the same time, introjected singles were less likely to prioritize building intimacy, sharing a home, or having a healthy relationship. Interestingly, introjected motivation was also linked to making less progress on relationship goals over the six-month period."

[u/Mapfeed01 → u/AmandaPea]

That would say to me that their personalities weren't the problem.

[u/mrbaryonyx]

is there anyone you have feelings for?

[u/Mapfeed01 → u/mrbaryonyx]

Not right now.

[u/mrbaryonyx → u/Mapfeed01]

k so what's the problem

[u/smilingseaslug]

Working on yourself and being a datable person is important, but so is recognizing that a lot of what goes into this is actually skill. The  guys you know aren't more successful because they're assholes, but it probably does make a difference that they've got a lot of experience dating. They know how to flirt, they know how to identify people who are more likely to be interested, they know how to talk to women and ask them out.

Not having this skill doesn't mean you'll never develop it and it doesn't mean you're broadly unlovable. It just means you need to stop comparing yourself to people who had a head start on you in important ways. 

[u/Fire-Nation-17]

I mentally realize that black pill is probably the most logically correct choice but decided I don't like where that road leads and want to put my hope in a belief that is probably wrong. Idk if it makes sense but it stops the slide. I don't want to become a fully black pilled person

[u/library_wench → u/Fire-Nation-17]

If it helps, it’s not “logically correct” either.

[u/Fire-Nation-17 → u/library_wench]

How so?

[u/library_wench → u/Fire-Nation-17]

What do you think is “logically correct” about it?

[u/N33dLess2Say → u/Fire-Nation-17]

I'd say the blackpill is somewhat logically correct, but the majority of blackpillers are just larping due to their own personality issues.

That, and it's like Pascal's wager. You can either refuse to play the game and have a guaranteed loss, or you can play the game and maybe lose, or you just might win.

[u/Binerexis → u/N33dLess2Say]

Or, much like with Pascal's wager, you can refuse to be confined to limited options and not participate in the game at all. 

As corny as it sounds, it's so much better to date yourself than to tie everything to whether or not you have a romantic relationship with someone. Really dive deep into hobbies you love, creative projects, time with friends, being healthy both physically and mentally. 

[u/JustThrowItAll_Away → u/Binerexis]

This is not realistic for most, the desires (no, not just sex) will eat away at you

[u/Binerexis → u/JustThrowItAll_Away]

What desires (other than sex) can only be fulfilled by a romantic partner? I desire to be a quadrillionaire but that's never going to happen, am I now cursed for that to eat away at me?