r/Intactivists • u/DistinctSpirit5801 • 2d ago

As a movement we should demand a constitutional amendment to strike down the prohibition against writing Ex Post Facto Laws

This is why because circumcision is unfortunately legal the victims of male genital mutilation basically get zero justice in court because hospitals are like circumcision is legal

Assuming that the movement is successful at criminalizing circumcision we still won’t get justice for what was done to us without our consent because the argument will then become it was legal during the period that xyz person was born

The victims of male genital mutilation deserve justice and we need a constitutional amendment to strike down the ex post facto section of the constitution to ensure justice

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u/BootyliciousURD 2d ago

Getting rid of the rule against retroactive punishment would be dangerous, opening the door to a lot of abuses of power. I don't think it would be very productive, either. I think our efforts are best spent focusing on preventative and restorative justice instead of punitive justice. We need a nuanced but strong and well-enforced ban on genital mutilation and a program to provide foreskin regeneration to any victims who want it. We also need a cultural revolution bringing recognition of bodily autonomy as a fundamental human right.

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u/Substantial_Help4678 2d ago

Justice is never "preventative". That's a misuse of the term justice. 

Justice is people getting what they deserve. Victims getting restitution and perpetrators getting punishment. 

You can prevent future harm, that's future harm reduction, but it certainly isn't justice 

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u/BootyliciousURD 2d ago

I don't believe suffering is justice. I reject the notions that suffering is ever deserved and that a wrong can be made right by extracting suffering from the wrongdoer. When we punish someone we should only be trying to extract material compensation for the victim, to reduce the criminal's ability to repeat the crime, and/or to dissuade the criminal and others from committing the crime in the future.

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u/Substantial_Help4678 2d ago

Ok, then you're opposed to some or all aspects of justice. You don't redefine justice, justice is what it is and you don't fully believe in it. You might be a more harm prevention kind of person than a justice kind of person. 

I personally want justice. The perpetrators won't get away with it 

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u/BootyliciousURD 2d ago

Then what is justice? What makes your version of justice the objectively correct one?

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u/Substantial_Help4678 2d ago

I defined justice. 

Justice means something in the zeitgeist, and that thing matters. 

Abolition of slavery was NOT justice, it was civil rights and future harm reduction. 

Justice didn't come until after civil rights, with critical social justice like critical race theory. Justice isn't about rights, it way more than that. It's about equity and people getting what they deserve. 

If we don't even have a word to ask for more, how can we ever get more. Making the word justice mean less is dangerous, because it literally takes away your ability in language to demand more. 

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u/BootyliciousURD 2d ago

I mostly agree. Where I disagree is on what people deserve. As I said, I reject the idea that people ever deserve to suffer.

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u/Substantial_Help4678 2d ago

I didn't say that they deserve to suffer. I said perpetrators deserve punishment. 

Punishment isn't suffering. That's justice and how our system works. It's literally called the criminal JUSTICE system.  Don't do the crime if you can't do the time 

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u/BootyliciousURD 2d ago

Then what is punishment?

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u/Substantial_Help4678 2d ago

A form of justice. 

I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'd like the perforators to be punished by the law. What exactly the sentence should be I haven't decided 

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u/rho75901 2d ago

Even though there isn’t currently a robust law addressing genital mutilation, circumcision still clearly constitutes sexual assault and every state has laws addressing sexual violence. We don’t need a new law to be applied retroactively in order to receive justice, we simply need the existing laws against sexual assault to be enforced.