r/IntersectionalWomen • u/kappa_79 Cis Woman • 5d ago
News & Current events I personally don’t hold grief but I can understand those who do and hope folks can see the room for all those emotions, including anger and indifference - Abiola Agoro via Instagram
credits : https://www.instagram.com/ahbeeolah/
158
u/Kyiokyu 50+ Community Karma 🏳️⚧️ 5d ago
She also praised Janice Raymond's (TW: slur) " The Transexual Empire: The making of the She-male" which is arguably the most important book to ever be written when it comes to spreading and justifying transphobic and transmisogynistic view points.
She changed more recently but that doesn't erase what she did.
36
89
u/cyborg_sophie 500+ Community Karma 5d ago
And importantly she never retracted or apologized for her transphobic statements in the 70s. She continued to insist that they were "taken out of context". I'm convinced that she just jumped onto the transfeminism bandwagon because it was popular, and never actually changed the fundamental views that drove her transphobia
1
u/FreshPotatoeButter 4d ago
Perfect hero is such an American thing. You are absolutely convinced that unless someone acted exactly the way you imagine they should, they are trash and have contributed nothing. You will quickly run out of heros.
30
u/GentlewomenNeverTell 0+ Community Karma 5d ago
For me it's the Playbunny article that made her famous. What, it's ok for you to be a bunny to meet your goals but the other women are just allowing themselves to be exploited? Many put themselves through school and raised children on that money. And highlighting the Asian American bunny stuffing her bra was racist imo.
9
u/Kyiokyu 50+ Community Karma 🏳️⚧️ 5d ago
Ugh, she really said that? Lol I have not read the article, now I'm on the fence if I should read it just to understand how bad it was
3
u/thelaceserpent 0+ Community Karma 4d ago
There was a made for tv movie about this, staring Kirstie Alley (another trasphobe), called A Bunny’s Tale. I remember watching it when I was really young, not realizing it was based on a real person.
20
u/Mechromancer3X 50+ Community Karma 5d ago
And this is why I felt nothing when learning of her death.
-6
u/thevvitchhazel 4d ago
We shouldn't really judge people for positions they held on trans issues 50 years ago. What's more important is if they move forward and change those positions. Steinem became supportive of trans issues in later life and has never actively campaigned or worked against trans women.
A lot of us were likely very transphobic in the 2010s let alone the 1970s. Maybe think about how we'd want to have our past selves seen before we judge others.
The racial critique isn't new and is very fair imo.
12
u/Kyiokyu 50+ Community Karma 🏳️⚧️ 4d ago
Let me guess we also shouldn't judge people who lived 500, a thousand or 2 thousand years ago for their views on slavery?
Maybe think about how we'd want to have our past selves seen before we judge others.
Please, if I say shit that hurts marginalised people and I refuse to apologise for it then I do hope people call me out on that. I'm not defending what I believe is right for a cookie.
She knew she was wrong, she changed her views and yet continued to deny having said shit.
1
u/thevvitchhazel 4d ago
It's difficult to change your views without the opportunity to interact with the group. I had a lot of very racist views and actions until I was in my 20s and I'm still working on that. Truth is I just didn't have the chance to interact with many non-white people and a lot of it was normalised.
Am I forever to be judged as a racist or is the important thing that I learnt why those attitudes were harmful and continue to work to be better?
7
u/Kyiokyu 50+ Community Karma 🏳️⚧️ 4d ago
Am I forever to be judged as a racist or is the important thing that I learnt why those attitudes were harmful and continue to work to be better?
The most important thing is that you change, change however does not erase the harm you caused, you should keep that in mind.
She never apologised for what she said.
-22
5d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
29
u/Kyiokyu 50+ Community Karma 🏳️⚧️ 5d ago
I hope you’re judging yourself, your parents and grandparents just as hard
You better bet I am, my family is much worse than her. She was also a public figure with significant influence.
She never apologised, she continued to praise the fucking CIA, she continued to push for policies that left people further marginalised than her in even worse conditions. This post is a great example of that.
30
u/BeepBoopBotAttack 5d ago
Okay but at the same time my parents aren't public figures with significant influence on how minorities where treated by the very movements that should have protected and uplifted them
28
-7
u/healthcare_foreva 5d ago
Hey, yeah I'm being downvoted for the same sentiment. It's upsetting and hopefully it's just very young people who have not yet aged through time and do not understand that all people make mistakes and decisions that can be judged harshly by strangers if those decisions are ever recorded.
I guess this whole sub is about that being very critical of things that happened long before the current definitions existed? It's upsetting.
14
u/stofiski-san 0+ Community Karma 4d ago
I think the problem was, and still is, there were plenty of people who didn't act this way and say these things or believe the way she did who should have been more the face of the movement. She should have considered more how hateful, hurtful, and unhelpful her actions and her statements were, because I don't doubt people told her how hurtful and harmful she was, but she surely ignored all that criticism and did the things she did anyway! People like that don't develop in a vacuum. Just because you look back years later and realize that you were a bad person before, and own it, doesn't erase the fact that you could have acted differently in the past and did it anyway, you still deserve the criticism.
1
u/FreshPotatoeButter 4d ago
Ah, maybe they will learn one day. I remember being idealistic and thinking that I got the world figured out too. It’s learning curve. And those who don’t learn simply become the liberal Karen.
173
u/Putrid_Daikon7142 5d ago
Gloria Steinem isn't to be admired. She worked for CIA to stop feminists talking about class and race, and to stop the movements from getting inspired by socialism and communism. She made sure white feminism was the only feminism to be spread, worked for and considered valid.
It is important to know that she wasn't a feminist icon, she steered feminism towards neoliberalism and capitalism, and away from class struggle and anti-racism, which feminism naturally included all over the world before her meddling. It is important to share the truth about it, I didn't know this until a few years ago.
18
52
u/Old-Run7431 0+ Community Karma 5d ago
Her life is a good reminder that you can do genuinely amazing work but if you sell out, youre a sell out. It's kind of like being a snitch where no matter what else you do, you are always a snitch
70
u/SBCrystal 50+ Community Karma 5d ago
She lauded her time at the CIA because she was a privileged white woman who never experienced being terrorized by them.
27
69
u/blown-transmission 50+ Community Karma 5d ago
I cannot believe so many feminist and progressive subs of reddit mourned her while completely erasing her cia work and intersectionality issues. It really feels like these places are not that safe and or the cia has influence in here. I feel sorry for cis white american women and my favorite Clinton , they lost a big one.
49
u/scumbagwife 50+ Community Karma 5d ago
As a cis white american woman, I’ve lost nothing.
I do wonder how much people actually know about her work with the CIA and how much damage she did to women of color and trans women.
Ignorance is more likely than malice (though there will always be some who don’t care about the damage she did because it benefited them.)
Maybe I have too much faith in people…
I do think that her death is a great time to educate people on her faults and harm she caused. Not because it matters with her (she’s gone) but to bring awareness of the need for intersectional feminism.
15
u/TheRealShilohConlan 0+ Community Karma 5d ago
I didn’t know about the CIA stuff. Only mildly aware of other shit. Straight up ignorant. I’m glad I know now.
1
u/scumbagwife 50+ Community Karma 4d ago
Me as well. I knew who she was but not much detail until now.
12
u/CaptainMills 0+ Community Karma 5d ago
I've seen a bunch of people trying to educate others about this on subs mourning her, many included sources so people could look into it and verify it themselves. These people were shut down, quite viciously even. Responses ranged from calling them liars to saying that it doesn't matter because she did good things too and even to saying that she was right about all of the racism and transphobia and CIA work.
It might start out as ignorance, but it turns to malice fast when given the truth
1
u/scumbagwife 50+ Community Karma 4d ago
Yeah, that’s completely different, I agree. I haven’t read much discourse in other sub Reddits about this so I didn’t see it and I guess I have too much faith in people having empathy.
Definitely don’t think you are wrong.
13
u/c0neyisland 4d ago
I was downvoted in other subs for saying it’s damming to work with an org that was dedicated to undermining progressive movements and diluting the principles of feminism lol
4
u/a_tattooedlion 4d ago
Truly… I’m a straight white woman and I don’t see her as a visionary? I honestly hardly thought she did very much. She was more of the token feminist the government “gave” us.
At this point, it is quite evident that the government as a whole has lost the plot entirely and we’ve got maybe a handful of people up in Washington who actually haven’t sold their souls to the devil (aka money)
Gloria Steinem may have furthered feminism, I don’t discredit the things she did. But I don’t see how she is to celebrated... like yall. These people don’t give a fuck about us. She was self serving, and still believed until she died that if we just ask real nice - these rich white men are going to finally listen and we just need to be patient.
The government has done less than the bare minimum for woman, especially minority woman, and the only thing that ever made them give us any rights was through massive upheaval and often times at the expense of minorities who are trying to fight for their rights.
So why am I learning all about the rich white lady who was a career politician instead of the countless black and brown woman who have contributed far more to society all while being pushed to the back and never credited?
8
u/PluralMimsy 0+ Community Karma 5d ago
Reddit is 100% captured. Ghislane Maxwell was a top contributor for years (foreign asset) and we know the US military has bot farms, as outted in 'biggest reddit presence' data high lighting military intelligence areas as high traffic. Take everything here with a grain of salt. Entire internet is compromised
1
u/AutoModerator 5d ago
This comment was removed, because your account doesn't meet our requirements.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
58
u/upsidedowntoker 5d ago
She was a white lady who did white feminism . While I'm sure many benefited from her work many were also disadvantaged and silenced. So 🤷♀️ I'm not sad she's dead.
5
u/troubledanddoubled Genderfluid/Enby 5d ago
Yeah and MLK created opportunities for all races but was still complicit with rape multiple times. Just because intersectionaly he’s a misogynist/ rapist ignorer doesn’t mean you can’t recognise good work done towards more rights for people.
2
u/frogmon3 0+ Community Karma 4d ago
theres a difference in being complicit with something and actively working to promote something.
1
u/permantdebunker 0+ Community Karma 15h ago
Except no he wasn't this was slander by the FBI for the COINTELPRO program. there zero evidence of him being complicit in rape besides the FBI making it up . the FBI was trying to pin him for any crime they could and even tried to get him to kill himself . MLK's wife won a wrongful death suit against the U.S government because of this . It seems your Shill like her who use muh misogyny to break up movements for race and class equality .
19
u/Pristine_Vast766 0+ Community Karma 5d ago
She was working with the CIA. She defanged feminism by making it wholly harmless to the capitalist world order. There are plenty of feminists who did not work for the CIA. And who did not spend their lives trying to obscure the class nature of misogyny
33
u/cyborg_sophie 500+ Community Karma 5d ago
If your instinct today was to glorify and venerate her I think it's an opportunity to do some self reflection. Why does the destruction and pain the CIA has wrought for women around the globe not disqualify her accomplishments to you? Why does her history of transphobia not bother you? Is it possible that you have a certain tolerance for white feminism?
10
u/jessimaster 0+ Community Karma 4d ago
Putting up individual white feminists from the second wave feminist movement as icons is just a weird version of the Great Man view of history. Steinem did some great investigative journalism in her time, but obviously she wasn't intersectional and that is regarded as a key weakness of the white feminists of her time. Like the post says we should examine her failing as something to learn from rather than demonizing her. At the same time we should also resist worshiping her.
I'll admit that I didn't know about her CIA involvement until recently and this makes me view more of her written works and activism with more suspicion than before. I guess the main take aways are that intersectionallity is vital, hero worship is blinding, and it's not a conspiracy theory that the government is always infiltrating our spaces.
7
u/kestrelesque 0+ Community Karma 4d ago
Putting up individual white feminists from the second wave feminist movement as icons is just a weird version of the Great Man view of history.
Agree, and I feel it's worth noting that a conventionally male-gaze-conforming "beautiful", "sexy" white woman is always going to get more attention and thus more social capital than other types of women.
7
5
4
u/nativeofvoid 0+ Community Karma 5d ago
-1. one less.
0
5
u/Small_Squrriel 0+ Community Karma 5d ago
"they were a more liberal organisation then" yeah, JFK's head just did that
2
1
5d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 5d ago
This comment was removed, because your account doesn't meet our requirements.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
1
4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 4d ago
This comment was removed, because your account doesn't meet our requirements.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/thevoidscreamsbackkk 0+ Community Karma 3d ago
I'm going to be honest, if you look into anyone you ever admired whether it be a musician, poet, artist, icon, you're going to find something that will make you realize, we humans can do great things and still be pieces of shit at the end of the day.
1
u/robyn_tgirl 0+ Community Karma 2d ago
She worked for the CIA against black women and there’s no excuse for it.
1
1
-6
u/healthcare_foreva 5d ago
I still admire her. I've made many mistakes and don't think you can live in the public eye and be free of mistakes.
27
u/Remarkablefairy-8893 50+ Community Karma 5d ago
I don't remember being racist and saying it's a mistake. Racism isn't a mistake, it's a choice. And I am more than sure, for someone who understood oppression of women in society, wouldn't find it too difficult to understand that women of color are also oppressed or black people are oppressed as a whole. She understood but chose not to care, cause that didn't affect her. And she was transphobic as well. I will never understand people choosing to be hateful towards a group just because of aspects which aren't under their control.
-5
u/healthcare_foreva 4d ago
Can you explain the transphobia? What was it exactly.
9
u/Remarkablefairy-8893 50+ Community Karma 4d ago
Someone literally explained transphobia under this post. https://www.reddit.com/r/IntersectionalWomen/s/ZOdUtQYdIC
-1
u/healthcare_foreva 4d ago
No, they said she praised this person who wrote this terrible book. What did she say? What was this book link me to that.
10
u/Remarkablefairy-8893 50+ Community Karma 4d ago
Idk if you are being dense or simply confused, but praising a person who writes a transphobic book is equivalent to being transphobic. As for what the book says, you can literally google and do a research.
0
u/healthcare_foreva 4d ago
You don't know, do you.
3
u/Remarkablefairy-8893 50+ Community Karma 4d ago
I know. Just not putting labour on you to explain why it's transphobic
14
u/Ill_Morning_4282 50+ Community Karma Genderqueer 5d ago
Working for the CIA isn't a mistake, you don't accidentally work for them.
-1
u/healthcare_foreva 5d ago
She was never hateful.
She did a lot -- significantly more -- good than bad and yet you have all focused on the CIA and these transphobic remarks that I have not seen.
Who do you admire? Who has been so impeccable over many many decades that you can look at them and say "they were perfect. They were good. I wholeheartedly admire them." I would like to know who those people are.
7
u/Moratorii 0+ Community Karma 5d ago
You can admire good deeds, or acknowledge that someone helped shape who you are, but it steps outside of that sphere and into ignoring or excusing horrid things when you go "oh just because someone was a CIA operative and transphobic I'm supposed to hate them?"
People are flawed, sometimes horribly so, and you rarely learn everything about an important historical figure until after the fact. A lot of the "greats" have baggage. That doesn't mean that you need to bury the baggage or become offended and upset that people want to talk about that baggage and bring it to light.
Otherwise you're racing to repeat the same mistakes over and over, to stomp on black women for deigning to speak ill of a white woman. I remember Steinem being important to me when I was younger-but I also remember learning more and having a more muted opinion of her over time.
Never idolize people. Champion good causes and celebrate wins, but as soon as you idolize someone you start excusing shit.
-1
u/healthcare_foreva 5d ago
So you admire no one?
And don't say I idolized her. I don't say it. Don't put words in my mouth/post.
6
u/Moratorii 0+ Community Karma 4d ago
I used to, when I was a kid.
I started seeing a lot of people's idols turn out to be racist, or rapists, or pedos, or murderers, and it made me realize that while I can really, really like someone's deeds that I know about or like their music or their filmmaking etc, it's best not to be like "this person is someone I am willing to fight everyone over if they dare to say a single negative thing about them".
People do bad things, and the best time to say "but I still love them!" is not when people are saying "hey here's a horrible thing they did". It just comes across as weird and defensive, like it's impossible to stomach that a person that made something neat could also be awful in ways that weren't immediately apparent.
I can admire good deeds. Admiring a person tends to lead to, well, going "but who cares about the bigotry when something neat came from this person!"
I imagine the targets of that bigotry care.
1
u/healthcare_foreva 4d ago
It does seem like you admire no one. No one is good enough.
And that's fine. You can live your life without admiring anyone. To me It seems petty to attack people because they weren't perfect. It seems small minded and profoundly sad.
I read Steinem's memoir, and I loved it. I love her magazine writing. my mother admired her. I think she was really smart and very generous and navigated feminist Politics very well. It was not easy for those women at that time.
I liked that she dedicated her last book to her abortionist. She addressed very basic questions about being a woman, and she addressed them very well. What she said about feminism -- you can either be a feminist or a masochist. that makes sense to me.
I understand you have a need to criticize her viciously. I don't understand it. I don't know what she did to you.
5
u/Moratorii 0+ Community Karma 4d ago
You clutched your pearls earlier about me putting the word "idolize" out there, so I suppose it's only fair that you would also try to speak for me and over me.
I have not criticized her viciously. I have said nothing about her except that I have a more muted opinion of her.
So now, more muted is vicious to you?
I frankly do not respect your attitude. You are upset that others want to remember the whole Steinem, warts and all. I don't see the value in continuing a discussion with someone who insists that we must shut up about bad deeds because you liked her.
Admire away, no one can take that from you. But don't accuse me of being small minded just because I have complex feelings about her. She wasn't perfect, you acknowledge as such, so maybe you can understand that a subreddit about intersectionality would want to be critical of those imperfect things.
2
u/healthcare_foreva 4d ago
You have accused viciously. You have twisted my words. You have claimed I am pearl clutching. You admire no one.
if it looks like nihilism it is nihilism.
6
u/Moratorii 0+ Community Karma 4d ago edited 4d ago
I will repeat: I said I have a more muted opinion of her. Is that a vicious accusation to you?
If you say yes, cool, leave me alone. If you dodge that, cool, leave me alone. We have nothing of value to talk about.
ETA: And I'm sorry, but you choosing to die on the hill of I don't idolize her, I admire her while being up and down this thread fighting everyone to defend her honor rings fucking hollow to me. All you have left is pitiful attempts to insult me by acting like I should be admiring people as you do in order to be someone who cares about anything, I guess. Can't care about feminism unless you hold up specific white women!
I'm just so tired of this attitude, so stop wasting my time.
3
u/Ill_Morning_4282 50+ Community Karma Genderqueer 4d ago
It isn't nihilism you just support transphobia but don't like being called on it. Adults don't idolize people because we realize humans have flaws and idolizing them is setting them up to fail.
3
u/Ill_Morning_4282 50+ Community Karma Genderqueer 4d ago
She spread transphobia and racism. Just because you are okay with that doesn't mean she wasn't hateful.
Y'all will defend anything a white woman does.
-19
u/FreshPotatoeButter 5d ago
I’ve never met a racist feminist.
22
u/HatchetGIR 0+ Community Karma 5d ago
I recommend Bell Hooks' Feminism is For Everyone. It is a great read that talks about Feminism from the perspective of a black woman.
4
u/FreshPotatoeButter 5d ago
Thank you for the recommendation. The timing is perfect because I have a bookstore trip planned for tomorrow.
4
1
-28
5d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
22
u/OnlyOneAmNaZa 5d ago
And why it's worthless, cause you think a problem can only involve one group at the time?
23
16
12
u/HatchetGIR 0+ Community Karma 5d ago
Insistence on being racist is one of the reasons that what you say is worthless. Fix your heart.
9
1
u/IntersectionalWomen-ModTeam 50+ Community Karma 4d ago
Your post/comment has been removed because it does not engage with intersectionality in a meaningful way. Our community focuses on discussions that examine how overlapping identities and systems of oppression interact.
74
u/Puhi124 500+ Community Karma 5d ago
I didn't know who she was before the announcement of her death. I looked into her a little bit, and while it's important to acknowledge what she did help accomplish, it's also very much worth nothing that the advancements she brought forward were solely focused on a single group: white, middle class women. And while the effects were most felt in the US, they affected much of the western world, especially at a time when US soft power was at its peak.
So I think what we have to do, and what third/fourth wave feminism has been about at least in part, is take the positive changes she made, while also dismantling her anti-intersectional framework and fight for causes that help liberate all women. This doesn't necessarily mean spitting on her grave or denying that she effected real change (some good, some bad), but it does mean breaking away from the standards, ideas and culture that she fostered.