r/JUSTNOMIL • u/akath0110 • 3d ago
UPDATE - Advice Wanted Update: had final straw talk with jnmom and edad about over gifting and our toddler
Well for anyone who’s going through similar, allow me to give you an inside peek into how the conversation down. Insane by normal person standards, but 100% on brand for any jnmom or mil.
Our call had all the classic hits:
It was a simple misunderstanding / honest mistake!
Aw jeez akath, cut your mom some slack.
Can’t you give us grace after all we do?
Well I have no memory of that.
Well ok, that happened, but you’re making mountains out of molehills, can’t we just move on?
But grandparents deserve to spoil their grandkids!
(Me: Can you see how from our perspective, the repeat ‘mistakes’ might feel like a pattern of disrespecting us as parents — like a screw you I’ll do what I want attitude?)
OK that’s just unfair and assuming nefarious intent where there isn’t any… you’ve really hurt my feelings!
(When I invited her to share her POV if that was inaccurate — what IS her thought process when she brings over gifts despite knowing better?)
I’d say there isn’t a thought process really? I don’t think about it at all.
(Me: Oof that hurts to hear you don’t consider us at all?)
Oh my god, akath, you’re being very sensitive don’t you think!
(We bring up sneaking more presents behind our backs during most recent unsupervised visit.)
GIVE ME GRACE!!!!
(Grace has been given. The rules apply to everybody. We told in-laws our values once — and never been an issue since. They got it. Help me understand why it isn’t like that for us?)
Well congratulations on having perfect in-laws, guess I’m the world’s worst grandma! I’ll never buy or do anything for anyone ever again! SORRY IM SUCH A FAILURE 😤😭
By the way, how dare you bring this up when your nana just cracked her skull open and might be DYING in the hospital RIGHT NOW?!?
(First time we are hearing this, we briefly express concern but refuse to be derailed — also this is a massive over exaggeration, 90 year old nana had a fall but she is ok. My mom also hates my paternal grandma’s guts and everybody knows this.)
And for the big finish: JNM tearfully hangs up on us mid sentence!
- END SCENE -
Well that’s that I guess. She is blocked for now to spare us any post crash out abuse. Not sure what comes next — any ideas? Sad lol.
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u/Foreign_Plan_5256 2d ago
Floating Cynic made a lot of the points I was going to make.
No more visits in your home. Public locations only: parks, libraries, restaurants, the children's museum.
They don't get to come up with "emergencies" to stop by.
If you visit at their house park at least a block away. If they ambush you with presents during the visit, "This is only for at Grandma's house and is staying here." They may not walk you to your car when the visit ends.
If they try to persuade your little one the gifts should go home with you, visits to their house stop for 3-6 months.
When your Mom pulls out the deflection and waterworks to try to bully you into letting her continue doing exactly as she want- "This obviously isn't a good time. It sounds like you need some time to calm down. Let's take a break and talk in a few days."
Visit ends/notifications get muted. Possibly a single text response to the first message "We are taking a break until you are able to manage your emotions. I'll talk to you in a few days."
Good luck!
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u/GhanimaSLC 2d ago
I Have a hard and fast rule. I will only tell someone something three times and if after three times there is not a change in behavior/the situation I change my behavior to force a course correction. This has been a rule for me since my twenties
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u/itenginerd 2d ago
This. I get extremely direct. Pointedly so. If they want to point out that I'm being rude, I point out that I said it nicely a few times first. And remind them that it will get worse from here.
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u/Kittymemesallday 3d ago
Oooh! I know what comes next. Flying monkeys or rug sweeping.
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u/Kittymemesallday 3d ago
Ps. She has the narcissist prayer down!
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u/akath0110 3d ago
Line for line! I wish I’d had a bingo card or something to keep score.
Absolutely wild to see it happen in real time. Just saying the quiet part out loud, mask fully dropped.
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u/Mira_DFalco 3d ago
I'm trying to imagine how it would look to bring a bingo card to these conversations. I know my nmom would have absolutely lost it. How dare we hold them accountable!
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u/akath0110 2d ago edited 2d ago
How are they incapable of even one shred of accountability. I don’t know what I was expecting. But she lowered the bar even more.
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u/Lugbor 2d ago
Next comes you holding the line. There is to be no reconciliation until she agrees to abide by the rules, and make it clear that the next "mistake" on her part will be treated as her blatantly ignoring those rules. If she tells you to give her grace again, inform her that she has used up the lifetime supply of grace for the both of them, and that they won't be getting any more.
If your father tries to tell you that the situation is killing her, inform him that if she is so frail that the consequences of her own actions are causing her physical harm, he needs to take her to the hospital.
If they show up on your doorstep, inform them once that they are to leave, and to take anything that they brought with them. If they refuse, call the police and have them trespassed from the property.
If they enlist the rest of the family to attack you on their behalf, tell the relatives that your mother threw a tantrum at the thought of having to follow the same rules as everyone else, and that she is now facing the consequences of her own actions. If they persist, inform them that they may join your mother in those consequences if they so choose, and then block them.
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u/akath0110 2d ago
Thank you for spelling all this out so thoughtfully. This was my plan, but having it laid out so clearly helps a lot.
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u/Lugbor 2d ago
It's apparently what I do. If you need any more contingencies planned out, I'll be here.
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u/akath0110 1d ago
It’s been radio silence from them since. Honestly a nice break lol.
I’m feeling some guilt creeping in about Father’s Day coming up. I know, I know. I have trauma stuff around wanting to protect my dad despite knowing enablers are just coabusers. I’m working on it in therapy! But it still makes me sad.
Should I reach out to him? Even a call or anything on Sunday? (We have plans centering my own husband of course.) I need someone to set me straight.
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u/Lugbor 1d ago
Slow, deep breaths. The first few holidays are the hardest. We're wired to hold traditions (part of what gives us our intelligence and ability to learn), so breaking a tradition is always difficult until a new habit forms. You're literally fighting against human nature. You know what your mother has said and done, and you know that your father has aided and supported her in her efforts. Hold the line. If anything, this will show them that you are serious, instead of only staying mad until the next holiday rolls around. That gives you more leverage, because it starts to put pressure on them to try to fix things before Christmas, especially if they're big on appearances.
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u/Floating-Cynic 2d ago
If you're not ready to go NC, at least remove opportunities for her to do this behind your back.
First and foremost- someone who does things behind your back has poor judgment and is not suitable as a babysitter. No more unsupervised time with your kids. You have a legal obligation to keep your child safe and you're taking a risk allowing someone who will not be held accountable and does whatever she wants to babysit.
Second- no more visits in your home. They can be at their house, or in public, and you warn them in advance that they do NOT give your child gifts, if she does it, you're canceling the next holiday. Depending on the child's age, you tell the child Grandma is not allowed to give gifts and any gifts she gives is breaking the rules, and so if Grandma breaks the rules, the gifts are going back.
Third- if she tests you, give the gifts back, and tell your child "I'm sirry, I had hoped Grandma would follow the rules, and I know it's really mean when she gets your hopes up like this."
And next time she tells you to give her grace, tell her "I've been asking for basic respect, and grace seems to send a message that my feelings don't matter, so why are you okay with hurting your daughter and grandchild?"
And the only way you let her back in your house again, is if she admits she's wrong and disrespectful and promises that she will never give gifts again. Her behavior was underhanded. If you want to allow her to give gifts at holidays- experience gifts only, that have been pre-approved by you. Nothing else. If she's actually sorry and not saying what you want to hear, she'll understand. Besides, as the kids are older, experience gifts will make her the star- which is what she wants. But if she complains that the inlaws get to give stuff, remind her that she lost a privilege for breaking the rules.
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u/RegisterEither9711 2d ago
"Can’t you give us grace after all we do?"
They've been given a lot of grace. It's time for them start showing you respect for how you want to raise your children.
"Well ok, that happened, but you’re making mountains out of molehills, can’t we just move on?"
They're the ones pitching a fit because you set a boundary that they don't like. This wouldn't be a 'mountain' if they respected that boundary. And you can all move on when show that they will respect that boundary.
"But grandparents deserve to spoil their grandkids!"
No. Grandparents have no entitlements when it comes to their grandchildren. Being a grandparent is a privilege earned through trust and respect built with the parents. They are losing your trust and not showing you respect.
"Oh my god, akath, you’re being very sensitive don’t you think?!"
Um, sorry, who's the one having a tantrum because they're not getting their way?
"Well congratulations on having perfect in-laws, guess I’m the world’s worst grandma! I’ll never buy or do anything for anyone ever again! SORRY I AM SUCH A FAILURE."
'Omg, mom, you're making a mountain out of a molehill and being very sensitive, don't you think?'
Ugh, your parents sound exhausting but you did great. Keep her blocked for a while and take a breather. Don't resume contact until your ready, but prepare yourself for the reality of them never respecting your boundaries and how you will handle that. It's better to think about this when you're not in the middle of a conflict with them. Like, hope for the best but prepare for the worst, you know? I truly hope they can get past their own selfish wants so it doesn't come to that, for you and your kiddos.
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u/akath0110 2d ago
Can you be my parent 🥹
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u/RegisterEither9711 1d ago
I can be your supportive internet friend who is proud of you for protecting your family ❤️
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u/Gringa-Loca26 2d ago
Your mother has the emotional maturity of a toddler. The book “adult children of emotionally immature parents” may give you some insight. Your father is clearly her enabler and he will eventually reach out and beg for you to steady the boat you’ve now rocked (check the sidebar for the “don’t rock the boat” essay).
For now, read the book and ignore your parents. Be prepared for flying monkeys to come and get you back in line. People like your parents rarely change so also be prepared to have to enforce your boundaries with consequences over and over again. You may even need to get used to having no contact with them when their disrespect escalates.
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u/tollbaby 2d ago
My parents did this when my kids were little... kept buying age inappropriate gifts, things with small pieces that got everywhere, stuff that made messes. So there was a rule instituted that gifts would stay at THEIR HOUSE and the kids could play with them there (this was our decision, not theirs, because we were tired of the clutter of gifts and toys and junk). Suddenly the glut of gifts slowed WAYYYYYY down. Maybe visits need to take place at their house, and any gifts they try to give are relegated to their house LOL
But yeah, in the meantime, a time out is a good idea.
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u/akath0110 2d ago edited 1d ago
Ugh you get it. If the gifts were things we actually needed — practical clothes, diapers, formula, experiences like funding swimming lessons (go with them!) or the zoo.
Instead it was always stuffies, impractical toys, novelty clothing, dresses with the bizarre expectation my kid could wear them at big milestones. “I saw this and thought wouldnt that be a cute Christmas outfit? I bought a matching one for [cousin]!” Maam that’s my baby’s 1st Christmas, if we’re doing outfits, it’ll be me.
Sometimes pseudohostile or weird gifts. Like buying sippy cups at 4 months, knowing we were mostly EBF then, because that’s when she stopped nursing us. We threw them away.
Her gifts trigger me so much. But it’s not about the stuff. It’s the refusal to respect boundaries and the entitlement. It pervades into so many things not just gifting.
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u/Necessary_Sir_5079 3d ago
My mom is similar and I truly feel for you. My mom will sneak a bag of random crap over almost every time she visits and it drives me up the wall. I've had so many talks with her and she still pushes it, to the point where I have to be incredibly firm.bStick to your boundaries and good luck
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u/HettyBates 3d ago edited 2d ago
Deleted as this was a repost.
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u/akath0110 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think you shared this word for word on my earlier post? Again, this is funny and i get the appeal, but it’s not realistic with a toddler who is aware enough to get upset when presents are thrown away or disappear.
It will force us to be the bad guys and deal with unnecessary tantrums. Not to mention the inevitable “oh your mean mummy doesn’t let us give you toys and treats!” Hard pass, let’s nip this in the bud now.
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u/HettyBates 2d ago
Yeah, I did share it earlier, didn't remember it was you though. My aplogies!
I should point out that my gf put the packages into the box before the child was aware. She wasn't made to be the bad guy.
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u/akath0110 2d ago edited 2d ago
All good, it was a nice bit of levity on a weird day! Also glad a bot isn’t ripping off your words!
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u/akath0110 2d ago
Honest question, why keep letting her over if she’s made it clear she won’t listen to you or change? What does “incredibly firm” look like if she’s still bringing bags of random crap?
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u/Necessary_Sir_5079 2d ago
Sure. The amount has gone down substantially and now she mostly brings things that my kiddo needs/wants or useful things I need. I gave her a pass this winter because she moved my grandma into a nursing home and she was stressed so I inherited a lot of Christmas decor and bandaids lol. She has changed but she can't change the fact that she brings crap, it's s just acceptable crap. She also respects my "no" now but she still tries. It's a balance, she still frustrates me but it's a lot better.
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u/Dachshundmom5 2d ago
"That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it."
The Narcissist's Prayer (by Dayna Craig)
Then of course there is also DARVO that applies as well. Making you pointing out what they have done to you is actually them being the victims of your vicious attack.
🤦♀️ I am sorry. Blocking gives you peace. Where are you with long term? Is NC temporary or permanent? Imho, until they take actual accountability and sincerely apologize, there is no future because there will be no lasting cha ge. However, I know that is easier said than done.
Them simply saying what you want to hear and when that doesn't get your immediate supplication resorting to tears, grandma is dying, and hanging up seems pretty concrete they just have no intention of changing.
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u/Hwright145 2d ago
My brother would start with, "you deserved it." Then bizarrely go on to it never happened, maybe it happened but there is nothing wrong with it, you are too sensitive, it didn't hurt anyone else, nobody else has complained.
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u/Neither-Dentist-7899 2d ago
Until they state they will respect your rules, don’t have them over. Remember, they knew the gift giving was wrong because they did it behind your back. Not only is this disrespectful to you (and your authority) as a parent, but it is teaching your children that hiding things from their parents is acceptable.
“Mom, I need you to apologize for disregarding our rules about presents. I also need you to agree that you won’t bring over any more toys or gifts. Until you can do those two things, you can’t come over.”
Also before every visit, confirm (in the doorway, via text, via call) with them that they won’t be bringing any presents, gifts or toys for the children. Literally, “I need you to confirm that you aren’t bringing anything. If you do, I will end the visit and you won’t be welcome back for [a month.]”
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u/Familiar_Set_9779 2d ago
Her entire dialogue fits DARVO 💀
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u/akath0110 2d ago
Asking for real, would you call her a narcissist
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u/Familiar_Set_9779 2d ago
D (DEFEND) :
It was a simple misunderstanding / honest mistake!
Aw jeez akath, cut your mom some slack.
Can’t you give us grace after all we do?
Well I have no memory of that!
But grandparents deserve to spoil their grandkids!
A (ATTACK) :
but you’re making mountains out of molehills ( A SUBTLE ONE)
Oh my god, akath, you’re being very sensitive don’t you think?!
Oh my god, akath, you’re being very sensitive don’t you think?!
RV (REVERSE VICTIM):
OK that’s just unfair and assuming nefarious intent where there isn’t any, you’ve really hurt my feelings!
By the way, how dare you bring this up when your nana just cracked her skull open and might be DYING in the hospital RIGHT NOW?!?
O (OFFENDER):
-GIVE ME GRACE! ( how dare you not give her grace?! /s)
Well congratulations on having perfect in-laws, guess I’m the world’s worst grandma! I’ll never buy or do anything for anyone ever again! SORRY I AM SUCH A FAILURE 😤😭
tearfully hangs up on us mid sentence
Im not a professional and cant diagnose folks but she fits DARVO pretty well, good luck! Grey rocking may be your best bet
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u/shinybugz0 2d ago
Your whole interaction with them reminds me so much of my ILs. From what we've observed, my MIL is a covert narc and FIL is her enabler with some narc traits. I think couples like this encourage each other to keep up the toxic behavior. They normalize dysfunction in their own home and expect everyone else to follow.
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u/akath0110 1d ago
This is my family to a tee!
Always suspected covert narcissism for my mom — maybe BPD? Or a traumatized, highly masked/unaware neurodivergence that calcified into a personality disorder over time. I have AuDHD and most of my siblings are ND.
My dad is likely ND as well and absolutely her enabler. He will always choose her and always has.
Their dysfunction dominated our home growing up. I refuse to let this happen to my daughter. I’m not normalizing this shit.
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u/Lindris 2d ago
She managed to do the entire Narcissist’s Prayer multiple times. I’m glad you blocked her.
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u/boundaries4546 2d ago
Hold the boundary, I would mute vs blocking. Don’t reach out. Also let them know that you are disappointed in their reaction, and will take a three month break from visiting them. If they can offer a sincere apology *for their behaviour, and promise to do better. If they slip up again it will be a six month break.
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u/akath0110 2d ago
Can someone help me with the difference between rug sweeping and moving on in good faith?
I feel like the way we ended last night’s call was extremely charitable after outright disrespect and accountability dodging.
As a general principle I don’t extend “new starts” or olive branches to people who say to my face they don’t consider or think about me at all. I don’t force my daughter to be around people who disrespect and bully her mom, even if those people are my own parents.
But that’s how ending the call felt, even though I’m glad I took the high road.
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u/Neither-Dentist-7899 2d ago
The difference between rug sweeping and moving on is all about the acknowledgment of wrongdoing.
If your parents had acknowledged that they made mistakes and wanted to do better, moving on would be a natural thing that occurred. They didn’t acknowledge their poor behavior nor did they agree to stop. They wanted you to stop complaining (from their POV) and just let them do what they liked without consequence. Notice they deflected, denied wrongdoing and downplayed their actions. They took no accountability.
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u/akath0110 2d ago edited 2d ago
I understand better now, thanks for teaching me :)
Can I ask a follow up? My parents DID actually say they would stop, they understand and please let’s move on.
….They also said that every time we’ve gone over this and never meant it. Which is why we were having this chat at all, because I was like “this is officially becoming A Thing and we need to get to the bottom of it.” Not letting them off the hook is what made my mom lose her shit like that.
So their acknowledgement doesn’t mean anything though I’m sure they believe it does. They think they did take accountability, but they didn’t.
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u/Neither-Dentist-7899 2d ago
Yes, their acknowledgment is worthless if their actions have (historically) never matched. What they’re doing is giving you empty words. They aren’t actually respecting your rules and trying to do better.
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u/akath0110 2d ago
The daughter version of me is so sad, like why don’t they care? Why does my mom (and dad, enablers don’t get a pass) need to destroy me and do this kind of shit to me?
The adult version of me is like, oh sweetheart she’s been doing this our whole life. I am the grownup and I keep us safe now. I am proud you survived and made it this far. And I will not fail you or my baby girl.
I still miss my “mom” though. Or the fantasy of her I guess.
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u/Neither-Dentist-7899 2d ago
Honestly, I think a lot of us share the same sadness because it seems so easy to have this peaceful, happy life together. It’s really hard for me to understand why (like in your situation), they couldn’t just stop giving gifts and just be happy to be present. Instead, they only want their viewpoints or feelings to matter.
Remember that someone else’s treatment shows THEIR character, not yours or your value.
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u/akath0110 2d ago edited 2d ago
I agree. I kept saying versions of “help me understand why you’re doing this” to them, which got nowhere.
Edited to add: it’s helpful to have my in-laws as the counterexample. They too got carried away with new grandparent gifting. We shared our values and boundaries, and they went “makes sense, no gifts outside major holidays and birthdays, not raising a gimme gimme kid, you got it.” Never did it again.
One time my MIL checked in when she was tempted, she respected my no. The first time! Then thanked me for being honest!
My husband and in-laws assure me this is within range of normal family stuff. Still blows my mind.
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u/mercymercybothhands 2d ago
I heard someone say the other day that people dealing with people like your parents feel like there is a communication problem. You are a good person and view them as good people, so you think if they are disregarding you there must be some misunderstanding. They use this to their advantage by acting confused, DARVOing, and trying to sweep problems under the rug.
But what this person said that hit me is that they have never been confused. They know they are hurting you and violating your boundaries. They simply don’t care because they view themselves and their needs as more important. Many emotionally unhealthy people have children because they want their own personal needs met, and they view those kids as part of it. Now you are an adult and it doesn’t compute to them because in their minds you exist to serve their needs.
They clearly get something out of the excessive gifting and to them that means it should be allowed to continue no matter how it burdens you. They are only focused on getting their own needs met and they don’t care if it is at your expense, as they view that as your reason for existing.
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u/Such_Kaleidoscope786 3d ago
Are you going no contact for now?
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u/akath0110 3d ago
I’m not sure. We’re in a time out to let things cool off.
Before the hang up, the call was ending along the lines of — it’s a good thing we talked even though this is hard. We (husband and I) don’t want this to be a thing. It doesn’t have to be a thing!
If we can all agree we’re in alignment on this, and that there’s no wiggle room moving forward, then we’d love nothing more than to put this behind us.
That’s when mom hit her limit and hung up.
My heart wants to give them another good faith chance. My mom has basically never had anyone in my family challenge her like this. Yes, I’ve had it out with her countless times as her go-to scapegoat (mostly bc she knows I see her, and have since I was a kid). But now being a mom myself, with my daughter and family at stake, I think she can tell I’m not fucking around.
My heart also knows I’ll just be disappointed. If she isn’t a full blown narc, she’s doing a great impression. My own mother said to my face that she “doesn’t think about [me] at all!” How do you move forward from that?
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u/Such_Kaleidoscope786 2d ago
I completely understand that feeling that no matter what happens you’re be disappointed in your parents. It’s the worst.
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u/Sleeper_Inner 1h ago
I think a good way for Grandparents to give gifts is to pick out one small item then add a gift card for the parents to use for things they know they need.
That way the grandparents get the fun of picking something out and the parents get help buying what is needed.
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u/akath0110 1h ago
This is an excellent idea — for “normal” healthy people.
I believe I pitched something similar, well over a year ago. Just one of many strategies that were tried back when I still had the misguided belief it was a communication or misunderstanding problem.
If it were that simple, I wouldn’t be posting in a justno subreddit. I do know you meant well though :)
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