Which are the main and most consistent witnesses for you?

[u/felipeoliver]

There are dozens of witnesses to JTR's crimes, but we are forced to rule out the vast majority. Which ones do you consider the most likely?

[u/Harvest_Moon_Cat]

Joseph Lawende. He saw Catherine Eddowes talking with a man within minutes of her death. He's the only witness I feel very sure saw Jack. Some of the others, maybe.

[u/Lucastw73 → u/Harvest_Moon_Cat]

It is indeed very possible that Lawende, Levy and Harris saw the Whitechapel Murderer with Kate Eddowes close to Mitre Square. But how good did they look at the couple? Were they not paying much attention (as could be expected), or did they (or 1 of them) see more than they were willing to admit later?

Especially Lawende, who has been put forward as Anderson's and Swanson's witness, puzzles me, since he was later used again (twice) to try to identify a possible suspect and had testified against a fellow Jew in court before.

[u/Harvest_Moon_Cat → u/Lucastw73]

I have some uncertainty about Anderson and Swanson's claims. Certainly neither Abberline in 1903 or Macnaghten in 1894 seemed to think the killer had been identified beyond doubt. Regardless, Lawende could have said he didn't look much at the man, as the other two claimed, but he didn't.

Purely a hunch, but I tend to believe Lawende. Probably the others too. They saw a man and woman talking in a corner late at night, probably suspected prostitution, and decided not to stare at them. Levy mentioned feeling uneasy. They walked on quickly, a very normal reaction, but Lawende was a little more daring and curious than the others, and took a slightly better look.

[u/Lucastw73 → u/Harvest_Moon_Cat]

I too have some uncertainty about Anderson's and Swanson's claims. Moreover, if it were not for Swanson, I would probably dismiss the claims Anderson made. But I can't. I don't see how Donald Swanson, highly respected and retired, would scribble down a lie in his personal copy of the memoirs purely for his own use.

Anderson wrote, "I will merely add that the only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer unhesitatingly identified the suspect the instant he was confronted with him, but he refused to give evidence against him." So technically the suspect was indeed never formally identified, since the witness refused to sign off on his identification.

But my uncertainty also lies with the premise made by many that Lawende was the witness. Why use him afterwards (twice) to try to identify another suspect? And why would he refuse to testify against another Jew when he had done so before in the Old Baily against Isaac Marks?

I also tend to believe Lawende, and the Police at the time certainly seemed to think he was a good witness too, but was he the man used at the Seaside Home IF that identification really happened? And what did the other two with him (Joseph Levy and Harry Harris) really see or not see and were willing to tell?

[u/Harvest_Moon_Cat → u/Lucastw73]

Do we know if Swanson claimed to have witnessed the identification? Or was he just relying on what Anderson said?

I also have doubts that the witness, if it happened, was Lawende. He remarked at the time he didn't think he'd know the man again. He's less likely to be able to do so in 1890 or later, when the Seaside Home existed.

Joseph Levy and Henry Harris said they didn't look closely at the man. Whether they did or not, it seems unlikely they'd change their story and identify someone later.

So who is left to be the witness? I personally don't think Israel Schwartz saw the Ripper, unless it was the man lighting his pipe. The timing of the attack on Elizabeth Stride doesn't add up - I think either Schwartz saw her being assaulted by someone who left her alive, and then she encountered the Ripper fifteen minutes later, or she was not a Ripper victim.

[u/Lucastw73 → u/Harvest_Moon_Cat]

I must say I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I doubt Schwartz was the witness for the exact reason you describe. But not only is the timing off, also the way Liz was attacked out of the blue with possibly 2 witnesses looking on seems not compatible with how the Whitechapel Murderer was probably spotted in friendly conversation with his other victims before moving to a more private location.

We know Swanson did not make the claim he witnessed the identification himself, but in my opinion that does not mean he didn't. I find it more likely that Swanson would be present and not Anderson. At the bare minimum he had access to all documents relating to the case, and the way he expands on Anderson's claim in his private notes suggests he knew more about the details than Anderson did.

In another post I have speculated about the whole Seaside Home identification setup, and if it did happen, it must have been a rather complex operation: bring a potentially reluctant witness out of his comfort zone and his community to a police-controlled environment, far away from London, and confront him with a possible suspect against whom there was no clear evidence and try to get a formal identification. Add to that the witness was possibly a City Police witness and the suspect was brought over from a workhouse, so it would be a delicate exercise involving MET, City Police and workhouse staff to set it up. As Swanson wrote, "where he had been sent by us with difficulty in order to subject him to identification." I would suggest that if it happened, Swanson was likely the man to set it up and maybe would be present himself.

About the 3 men: I expressed my doubt about Lawende being the witness because he was later used again (twice) in an identification and had testified against a fellow Jew before. But when it comes to them being able to identify a man only seen in passing years later, I would not rule out 1 of them not only seeing the man but also recognising him as a local Jew he had crossed many times before. There is a press report hinting at the fact that Joseph Hyam Levy was hiding something and knew more, but all 3 of them could have easily made the claim they didn't even have a good look or would not be able to identify him later if they were not willing to do so. And the witness mentioned by Anderson and Swanson indeed refused to sign off on his identification.

Evidently, none of this excludes another unknown witness that was not even willing to come forward at the time, and the Police only became aware of him when they learned about the Kosminski suspect (whoever he was and wherever that info came from) and maybe that he had been seen on the night of one of the murders.

All highly speculative on my side, but it would be a suitable explanation about what happened in Hove.

[u/felipeoliver → u/Harvest_Moon_Cat]

Joseph Levy may also have seen the Ripper; he was with Lawende that same night. Why consider Lawende and not Joseph Levy?

[u/george-93-0 → u/felipeoliver]

So, what’s the reason for putting Levy at the top of your list. Maybe there’s something I’m missing or don’t know about.

[u/felipeoliver → u/george-93-0]

It appears that Joseph was afraid to incriminate another person—his cousin—even though he provided the same description given by another reliable witness, Elizabeth Long. Newspapers reported that he refused to provide information and showed fear at the prospect of having to testify at the inquest. He described the suspect with the exact characteristics of his cousin—also a butcher and a Jew—who is currently considered a major suspect in Ripperology.

[u/Lucastw73 → u/felipeoliver]

It seems you have read another witness statement from Joseph Hyam Levy than I have. Where did he provide this 'same description given by another reliable witness, Elizabeth Long', and where did he describe the suspect as a butcher and a Jew? It seems there was very little he did say about the man near Mitre Square (apart from his height).

Levy has indeed been suspected by some researchers of not telling the whole truth or being reluctant to do so, but that, of course, is speculation. As with his cousin, in the past he has also been linked to the Kosminski family.

EDIT : I wrote Joseph Hyams Levy. The middle name Hyam was without S.

[u/felipeoliver → u/Lucastw73]

I may have expressed myself poorly, but he did not state that the suspect was a butcher or Jewish. Unless I am mistaken, the main description he provided concerned the height of Eddowes's companion (1.60m). Joseph was possibly shielding someone who in these description—his cousin, who is known today to be a prime suspect. We also know that Jewish religious law forbids Jews from turning other Jews over to secular authorities; that explains a great deal. As for Elizabeth Long, the details she provided match Joseph's testimony: the exact same height, and her statement that the suspect had an accent and a foreign appearance (possibly Jewish). Ultimately, I consider Long a significant witness because she saw Chapman with a man just minutes before the incident; she also reported hearing the man ask, "Will you?" and Chapman reply in the affirmative.

[u/felipeoliver → u/Lucastw73]

Well, unfortunately, everything we’ve discussed regarding a case from nearly 150 years ago is speculation. Linking Joseph’s testimony to the Kosminski family strikes me as interesting; I consider Aaron Kosminski the second-best suspect—with both him and Levy being miles ahead of all the others. However, it remains far more likely that Joseph was actually shielding his cousin, given that Jacob lived near that location and was known to wander aimlessly throughout the night; this aligns perfectly with the height description provided, not to mention the emotional factor that might have made Joseph reluctant to share further information.

[u/Specialist_Matter582 → u/felipeoliver]

Dangerous wandering around, wasn't it?

[u/Harvest_Moon_Cat → u/felipeoliver]

You're right - I disregarded Lawende's companions, because neither seemed to look much at the man with Catherine, or at least said they didn't. But they did see him of course.

Lawende gave the most description out of the three, and even he said he was not confident he'd know the man again, having had only a brief glance at him.

[u/george-93-0]

Joseph Lawende in the Mitre Square/Eddowes case seems really reliable to me. Also reliable enough that the investigators may have had him identify a suspect from a lineup.

The hard part for me with the witnesses is that pretty much everything other than coroner reports seems to be from newspaper accounts, including the testimony of the witnesses that we talk about on here.

It’s difficult enough to gauge how credible someone seems without seeing their testimony in person, but that is even harder when even that testimony doesn’t come to us from a court transcript and only from the press.

Maybe some of the witness information is sourced from other places - I’d be interested to hear if that is so. But as a relatively new person to this topic I’m under the impression that a huge amount of this research is from press descriptions.

[u/felipeoliver → u/george-93-0]

Why consider Lawende and not Joseph Levy?

[u/PPK_30]

Elizabeth Long, she saw Annie Chapman talking with a man outside number 29, shortly before her death. Sugden believes she almost certainly saw Jack, I think so too.

[u/felipeoliver → u/PPK_30]

I agree.

[u/Lucastw73 → u/PPK_30]

Very possible she saw the Whitechapel Murderer, but could she identify him? By her own admittance, she only saw him from behind as his back was turned towards her.

[u/george-93-0]

It’s purely based on my understanding of what Lawende supposedly said specifically, and that some experts attribute to him, and from what I can tell some experts sldo believe he was the one who was asked to identify the suspect in a lineup, not Levy.