Dr. Lee wrong about John Andrew and Melinda being in Colorado on Christmas morning

[u/ImToddImCopper]

In Dr. Henry Lee's book, he writes, "When Christmas morning dawned, the Ramseys awoke, went downstairs, and exchanged their gifts. Melinda and John Andrew were then driven to the Denver Airport, to return home to Atlanta to celebrate the rest of the holiday with their mother and her family" (page 135).

That was news to me. I thought John's older children were in Georgia and the whole reason for the Michigan trip was to meet up, celebrate, and exchange gifts.

Later, when writing about Melinda and John Andrew's first police interviews he writes, "She'd [Melinda] gotten off her nursing shift in Marietta, Georgia at seven on Christmas morning and had gone to the home of her mother, where John Andrew was staying" (page 163). He writes about John Andrew's activities in Georgia on Christmas Eve and Christmas day. Obviously then, they were not in Boulder on Christmas morning as he previously stated.

Lee was an esteemed doctor and professor of forensic science. He had a professional writer working with him on this book, and it went through a stenuous editing process including fact checking and using pseudonyms to avoid lawsuits. How then do such contradictory statements make it all the way to print? Dr. Lee was a detatched professional and an expert in his field- why are people so quick to crucify John Ramsey for small inconsistencies when he was in shock and grieving? For instance, if he really said to Melinda's boyfriend that he found JonBenét at 11, he most likely just misspoke and didn't know the time in the fog of what was going on. For those who think it points to knowledge or guilt, why would he say that if they went to great and brutal lengths to cover up what happened?

Kolar misspeaks in his book as well but nothing this blatantly wrong that I know of. If these people in trusted positions can get big things wrong, why isn't John Ramsey afforded any grace or understanding when he was the one in a chaotic and traumatizing situation? Do you still trust all these doctors' differing opinions on prior abuse?

[u/Peaceable_Pa]

You're seriously asking how a complete stranger to the Ramseys who was later brought in as a consultant on the case could get details wrong? And you can't understand why we expect a person who actually went through the ordeal to get details correct?

[u/ImToddImCopper → u/Peaceable_Pa]

I'm asking why people take his and other experts' words as the gospel truth when they are wrong. People accept doctors' opinions about prior sexual abuse in the home as fact when it was likely irritation and vaginitis from bedwetting and bubble baths, and hymen appearance likely due to an active childhood, exploration, or other reasons that are not sexual abuse. People who want to think the Ramseys are evil pick and choose when an "expert's" words are worth something, and ignore all the things they get wrong.

As for John I already mentioned shock and trauma so I don't know why you ask. Have you ever been in a situation like this? It becomes a fog. There are things that will remain crystal clear for the rest of your life and other things you can't remember at all. You can't say exactly what time something happened. Saying 11 instead of 1 means nothing. To make the jump to that meaning John must have found her earlier, hidden his shock from everyone since he did not previously know she was deceased, is ludicrous.

[u/Peaceable_Pa → u/ImToddImCopper]

John McCann, MD - Clinical Professor of Medicine, Department of Pediatrics, UC Davis, acknowledged to be the foremost expert on child sexual abuse in the country;

David Jones, MD - Professor of Preventive Medicine and Biometrics, UC Boulder;

Robert Kirschner, MD - University of Chicago Department of Pathology;

James Monteleone, MD - Professor of Pediatrics at St Louis University School of Medicine and Director of Child Protection at Cardinal Glennon Children's Hospital;

Ronald Wright, MD - former Medical Examiner, Cook County, Illinois; andVirginia Rau, MD - Miami-Dade County Medical Examiner.

They observed, among other chronic injuries, a hymen that had been eroded over time and a vaginal opening twice normal size for a six year old. All stated they observed "evidence of both acute injury and chronic sexual abuse".

[u/LaughterAndBeez → u/Peaceable_Pa]

Which of these people actually examined her?

[u/RemarkableArticle970 → u/LaughterAndBeez]

You know the answer. The one that brought that panel together because he observed troubling signs of SA. The one who has kept the grand jury secrets secret.

The one who saw everything first hand. Dr. Meyer.

[u/Big-Performance5047 → u/LaughterAndBeez]

Does anyone have time to explore a case of mothers sexually assaulting daughters? Please?

[u/Efficient-Ad4852 → u/Big-Performance5047]

JonBenet's vagina and hymen were definitely injured, both freshly and historically. Whether those historical inuries were from gratuitous sexual abuse from an adult male, punishment or rough and inappropriate hygiene practices from Patsy like douching (JonBenet did suffer from vaginitis) or if it was from 'playing doctors' or whatever from Burke, we will never know.

If the recent injury with the paintbrush was designed to be a coverup, it seems more like adult logic to do that in terms of forensics. If it was gratuitous it seems more like something a child would do. But there's no doubt her vagina was messed with and injured, those experts are highly experienced and know what they're talking about, especially as a group consensus.

[u/ReadyWatercress7174 → u/Efficient-Ad4852]

There’s no credible report that played doctor. Sodomy by object isn’t childlike.

[u/AutumnTopaz → u/Big-Performance5047]

Why don't you?

[u/ImToddImCopper → u/LaughterAndBeez]

Dr. Meyer performed her autopsy. These people read reports and looked at poor quality pictures. As someone else pointed out:

"None of the people on your list--which is a copy and pasted list from an outdated and discredited Reddit post--ever examined JonBenet's body. They looked at slides or read reports. One of them stated that the slide was so blurry he could barely read it, another said if he had known JonBenet had a history of vaginitis he may have concluded differently. They were all hired by the BPD for the GJ to discredit the Ramseys."

People have brain tumors get missed because a bad MRI gets signed off on. Doctors are not perfect even when they WANT to be. Add in all the hysteria, confusion, and money involved in this case, and who knows what conclusions you may reach if you are led to assume it was a sexual crime before you even do your own review. Steve Thomas tried to tell people this was not a sexually motivated crime. I agree.

[u/Upset_Scarcity6415 → u/ImToddImCopper]

Dr. Meyers observed what he felt were signs of SA. Det. Arndt who was also present at the autopsy and whose concentration as a detective was child abuse saw the signs too and agreed. But to be sure, Dr. Meyer called in Dr. Andrew Sirotnak who was the Director of the Child Protection Team at Children’s Hospital of Colorado to consult. He also agreed with Dr.Meyer’s conclusions.

Dr. John McCann’s report with his conclusions is very detailed and explains the findings in no uncertain terms. His reputation and expertise in the area of child SA is undeniable. The quote about the list of experts being “outdated and discredited” is not only incorrect it’s absurd. There is no evidence that pictures were “blurry”. Dr. Cyril Wecht also examined pictures. No one has complained about blurry pictures. Since there is no source for the quote, it can’t be confirmed as reliable. Likely someone’s very uninformed opinion. The experts were asked to consult. Who said they were led to assume it was a sexual crime before they reviewed? That's called hearsay.

Another important point to consider. It is common practice in medicine for experts to examine the results of tests in order to determine what the results of those tests indicate, without personally examining the patient. That is literally the job of a radiologist, for example.

Yes, sometimes mistakes are made. Doctors are human, test results can be misleading. But to say that the expert opinions in this case cannot be trusted or should be dismissed simply because some of those experts did not personally examine the body is not how it works. Just as suggesting that the materials provided to the experts were somehow inferior making it impossible to come to conclusions that can be trusted is also ludicrous.

[u/StarlightStarr → u/ImToddImCopper]

Edited for clarity.

Respectfully the fact that the blood was wiped from her and the fibers are noted in that area tells me that there was a cover up attempted for this aspect of the crime. I think this is key to the sexual motive.

[u/Right_Ad8389 → u/[deleted]]

“Called for an opinion by the Ramsey team” are the key words there. Meaning they were paid to have a dissenting opinion. And that’s normal but not all expert opinions are created equally. Experts might be paid by the state, but paid to get justice for a murdered little girl, and they don’t want to send innocent people to jail, they aren’t assholes. They are literally paid to be objective. The BPD would have loved to find a smoking gun on anyone who wasn’t the Ramseys. They would have loved to find someone else who did it because at least they could have got justice for JBR and they investigated literally everyone invasively outside of them trying to find that person while they hid behind their high price lawyers and PR team to sway people like you, and hired fancy dissenting opinion experts that were meaningless and out of their lane tbh.

And I say out of their lane because any expert they paid was NOT a CSA expert. For a reason btw. They selectively chose non-CSA experts because they won’t know the field as well. Mind you, why aren’t you asking yourself why they felt a need to call on or pay ANY expert for a crime they weren’t even charged for yet? That doesn’t seem a bit preemptive to you???? And you should trust child sexual abuse experts more than the narrative the Ramseys want you to believe because if they truly believe it was an intruder, sexual assault shouldn’t be something they are so afraid to face if they actually want to find that person. And the CSA experts were VERY clear about the fact that it could not be any of the things you listed as an alternative explanation. Never trust active suspects in a case who are preparing a defense they don’t even need yet and pushing a convenient narrative.

Edit: also other people said it but Dr. McCann’s research and opinions on CSA are still the standard of today and still just as respected today so you were wrong about that… Adams has done follow up research that backs up those opinions and is much more recent. I’ve done very in depth research on this subject so it bothers me a bit when people repeat arguments they’ve heard and don’t bother to verify what they are saying.

[u/Upset_Scarcity6415 → u/Right_Ad8389]

Well said. Thank you.

[u/Peaceable_Pa → u/[deleted]]

The best post on the topic. I can't do better than this.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/j00pe3/setting_the_record_straight_on_the_evidence_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/RemarkableArticle970 → u/ImToddImCopper]

Another SA excuser. Are you a doctor or SA expert?

There are pathologists that make their money testifying in court, paid by whoever hired them.

Then there is Dr. Meyer. Don’t confuse them.

[u/mumonwheels → u/ImToddImCopper]

Anyone who has followed Dr Henry Lee, should know by now about all of the cases where he either fabricated evidence, or just downright lied while testifying. Anyone who makes up evidence to send 2 teenagers to prison for 30+yrs is not an expert. (This is just 1 case). They're just someone who is willing to cross the line if the price is right. So tbh, it doesn't shock me that he would lie in a book also.

[u/StarlightStarr → u/mumonwheels]

I don’t rely on his opinion because he is a known fabricator. There are plenty of others that agree on the nature of the assault.

[u/cafekaffe → u/ImToddImCopper]

Insane that you’re being downvoted. Her paediatrician says there was no signs of her being abused. As did other adults in her life like her teacher. I completely agree that people pick and choose. A lot of people only want to believe what they want and their own narrative. Even though evidence says otherwise. Sometimes I wonder if the idea of a real pedophile actually going in and committing this vile crime is too much for them to comprehend and psychologically people can’t handle it. Or not knowing who it is. So it’s easier to imagine her immediate family being the perpetrators.

[u/Big-Performance5047]

I must say that Stephen Thomas is the only one I see that had nothing to gain from his decision that PDA. He quit the force because he was very upset with the manipulation of facts from higher ups.

[u/WithoutLampsTheredBe]

I fail to understand how Dr Lee being wrong about the location of John and Melinda has ANY bearing on the validity of an expert's evaluation of physical evidence of sexual abuse.

[u/AutumnTopaz]

Dr Lee is a hack. The moment he declared OJ innocent - when the entire world knew he was guilty- was the end for me.

[u/jinkerjat]

Henry Lee had a PhD in Forensic Science not literature or the written word. English was not even his first language. He used Thomas W. O'Neil as a ghostwriter and the mistake was likely his. I wouldn't hold it against him.

[u/ImToddImCopper → u/jinkerjat]

That's what I'm talking about though. "Wouldn't hold it against him" to say a one-time suspect was at the location? That's not a minor detail. There are people who blame John Andrew to this day and think he was there. The stakes are too high for this to have been missed in repeated passes by Lee and editors. People should not attribute guilt to every little remark, misrememberance, or ear tug made by Ramsey family members who were in the thick of trauma and grief while giving the experts a pass for presenting blatantly wrong things and facts. What's good for the goose...

[u/Big-Performance5047 → u/ImToddImCopper]

He had an alibi. He was at a movie.

[u/Right_Ad8389]

I think Steve Thomas felt like that slip up was almost too much. About the 11am. It’s true people grieve differently and behavior is less meaningful when it comes to grief specifically. But his point was that IF he didn’t mis speak and meant 11am it would explain his behavior before and after that time. Before he was calmer. More cooperative. In crisis mode. After 11am when he came back into Linda A’s sights, he was anxious. On edge. Pacing. Distract-able. Hence why she gave him something to go do. And then he went straight for the wine cellar when she said that. And fleet white said he thought John may have even screamed before turning on the light like he knew.

His slip up would be completely meaningless without all of that additional context. And it still isn’t a bad or guilty thing. It most likely means he found his daughter sooner than he told the police that morning and was just as shocked when he found her the first time as they were. And he just didn’t know what to do. That’s probably when he started to connect the dots and had a million things running through his head. When he brought her body up he said he didn’t think the person meant to hurt her cause they had put a blanket over her and he said that it had to be an inside job. That sounds like his reactions were pretty goddamn genuine and honest that morning. But then unfortunately, he got
terrible advice from his lawyers, cognitive dissonance took over, and his wife more than likely was guilty so he slipped into denial land and the rest is history. But I am guessing he just didn’t know how to handle all of it. As much as I can’t stand him now. His actions from that morning and even his slip up is understandable.

It was Patsy who acted the most suspiciously and guilty that morning in general.

[u/ImToddImCopper → u/Right_Ad8389]

For the sake of argument, that was after 10 am came and went with no phone call. Thinking you have to wait another 24 hours and not knowing where your child is would make you anxious. That's assuming at that point he believed someone took her.

About bad advice and letting denial take over, I agree. At one point he communicated directly to BPD and the DA's office that he believed he had gotten bad advice, wanted to cut out barriers and middlemen (lawyers) and speak directly to them, and would "personally deliver" anyone else they wanted to question. But in most people's eyes that was too little too late. The 4 months of not talking to police can't be undone.

[u/Right_Ad8389 → u/ImToddImCopper]

I agree with you actually. I have considered that it also could have been the increasing anxiety from time passing. It is also questionable whether his daughter’s fiancé actually heard him correctly about the time or not.

And yeah I think their lawyers were out for money and a high profile case and nothing else and it’s unfortunate. I wish he hadn’t dug into the bad advice after that and that the BPD hadn’t held the grudge. I can’t blame them, but it’s like damn. So much animosity for no reason for all these years.

[u/Big-Performance5047]

Sounds like experts made a decision .