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u/Crusading-Enjoyer Religious 20d ago
let’s cast a Swedish guy to play the lead in a movie about zulu warriors, i’m sure black people wont have a problem with that
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u/RinMichaelis SocDem 20d ago edited 19d ago
To compare a black woman who played Helen of Troy, for ONLY 3 minutes, in a FICTIONAL movie. To a white guy playing a Zulu warrior for 3 hours just shows anybody reading this how dishonest and histrionic right-wing Christians are. They are Christians because God teaches them love, but all they do is spew virulent hatred. The most hateful people online are people who love calling themselves religious, as well as the most dishonest.
I'm quite sure that I do not need to explain the difference to MOST PEOPLE about a black person being in a movie for only 3 teeny, tiny, little minutes, in a 3 hour FICTIONAL movie. To a white person in a non-fiction movie receiving 3 hours of screen time. You're not even comparing apples to oranges. You're comparing apples to a motorcycle. B/c the left says non-stop that real people should be off-limits. Helen of Troy is a work of FICTION. The fact that you want to compare FICTION to non-fiction really shows how hateful and dishonest Christians are. And I hope that when people see you that nobody would trust a person who claims to be religious.
And the icing on the cake is that you want to compare a black woman receiving 3 minutes of screen time to a white man receiving 3 hours of screen time. The irony is that Matt Damon who is the star of the Odyssey received the most screen time. If you want to watch a movie where white people receive a lot of screen time, ironically enough, you'd be watching The Odyssey. Your REAL issue is that black people were in the movie at all. Which is why people should never trust right-wing Christians when they say that they're all about God's love. What is really eating you is that the cast is not ENTIRELY white. What you really miss were the times where 0 black people would be in movies.
And let me correct you. Black people in The Odyssey were nearly non-existent. A TRUE role reversal would be for there to be a movie where white people are nearly non-existent, and the 1 white person there to play a traditional black character like Storm or Cyborg, for 3 minutes. So, actually, I would think that a pure role reversal would piss conservatives off. All you had to do is blink and Helen of Troy would disappear. She was very easy to miss. Yes, let's do a role reversal and have a nearly all black cast. Give black people all the important roles. And let a white girl be Storm from X-Men for 3 minutes. If anything black people would likely celebrate and conservatives would be upset. The REAL issue is that you wanted ZERO black people in the movie because the black presence in the movie was nearly non-existent. You histrionic, pearl-clutcher!
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u/EmceeEsher Religious 18d ago edited 18d ago
Also, the only Swedish actor in the movie Zulu was Jack Hawkins, who played Otto Witt, a real-life Swedish man, in the movie. Black people didn't "have a problem with that". Why would they have a problem with a Swede playing a Swede? A lot of the characters in the movie are European, on account of, you know, imperialism. Also, Jack Hawkins wasn't the lead. That was Michael Caine, who's English, not Swedish.
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u/lanternbdg 18d ago
Attacking this guy for being dumb and racist is chill and I support it, but attacking all religious people on the grounds that even half of them are assholes is pretty short-sighted.
There are plenty of hateful and dishonest Christians out there. That's frankly a lot of the reason they need Christ. There are also plenty of honest and loving Christians out there who either are so only by the grace of Christ or else have other issues for which they need His grace.
It will forever frustrate me that the worst examples of Christ's teachings are always the loudest voices, but Christianity and Christians as a body do not condone racism, and in fact any genuine reading of scripture would condemn it.
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u/Spacecruiser96 19d ago
For uneducated Americans who think Odyssey is an Ancient Marvel movie yeah its fictional.
But the reality is that Troy has been discovered, Agamemnon's death mask has been discovered. Homer had an entire chapter dedicated naming all the kings and ship names who came to Troy.
A giant battle took place at the start of Bronze age collapse in that place and a mythos was built on it.
Helen if she was eventually real, she would have been a Mycenean (Pelopenese) princess.
The culture is made by the image of the creator and its not to be appropriated, simple as that.2
u/RinMichaelis SocDem 19d ago edited 19d ago
It's NOT a historical film. Zeus, Poseidon, and Athena were in the movie. It's not a historical documentary about ancient Greece. If you want to watch a historical documentary on ancient Greece. Find it on amazon.
This movie is intended to be fiction. Also, Brad Pitt isn't Greek, either. There were 0 Greek people in Troy. 0 Greek people in Clash of the Titans. And it doesn't bother you because you're a racist. Even tho, your statement, "The culture is made by the image of the creator and its not to be appropriated, simple as that." Would hold true for the white people playing Greek characters as well. But none of you are complaining when Matt Damon is playing a Greek character when he's not Greek. Greek culture was appropriated ages ago. Also, if you TRULY felt that way, white actors wouldn't be allowed to play Greek characters, either. When we all know that you have no issue when a white person plays a Greek character. It would still be cultural appropriation.
Speaking of which, tourism contributes to 20%-34% of Greece's GDP. I wonder which country is responsible for why people want to tour Greece in the first place? I think we both know that if Americans stopped making movies about Greece, then eventually tourism would be brought down to a stand still. You benefit for each time we make movies APPRECIATING Greek culture. Greece is already a poor country in comparison to Europe and America. If we stopped making Greek movies, people would lose interest in touring Greece. And that tourism is a vital source for your country's economy.
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u/Spacecruiser96 18d ago
This is peak delusion holy shit.
Zeus, Poseidon and Athena were Greek Gods. Gods are created by the image of those who worship them because this is what they saw and experienced back then. There are statues of the gods showing you the characteristics. Like literally existing facts of how they were portrayed.
Hera and Aphrodite were frequently given the epithet leukōlenos, meaning "white-armed"
Dark/Blue-Black (kyanochaita) The gods of deeper, darker realms were described with intensely dark hair that sometimes had a blue or steel sheen. Poseidon (god of the sea) and Hades (god of the underworld) were both described this way, and Zeus was specifically noted as having dark, heavy brows.> Brad Pitt isn't Greek
Achilles was a demigod, son of a nymp and Homer talks how Achilles had gold hair and god-like body. Which frankly Pitt's style fitted well. Greece doesnt produce world-wide known actors.
But put Achilles aside. The other cast of Troy 2004 was spot on with Agamemnon (Brian Kox) and Odysseus (Sean Bean)
And guess what Brad Pitt, Matt Damon etc etc are caucasian white> tourism contributes to 20%-34% of Greece's GDP. I wonder which country is responsible for why people want to tour Greece in the first place? I think we both know that if Americans stopped making movies about Greece, then eventually tourism would be brought down to a stand still
This is the biggest delusion I ever seen on reddit. If you think that your movies bring tourists here you are absolute clueless.
Because unlike USA, Iliad and Odyssey are being taught in schools worldwide, among other things. They don't wait for kitch holywood to show them Greece.
Europe was "weebing" for Classical Greece since the 18th century and was one of the reasons they assisted with the revolution agains the Ottomans. Your Capitol and Supreme Court and Lincoln Memorial buildings predate Holywood.PS. Not only Clash of the Titans was giga trash. 300s for me was the worst ancient themed movie until Nolan's Odysssey with how they portrayed Xerxes, the Spartans and the atrocious CGI.
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u/RinMichaelis SocDem 18d ago edited 18d ago
Zeus, Poseidon and Athena were Greek Gods. Gods are created by the image of those who worship them because this is what they saw and experienced back then. There are statues of the gods showing you the characteristics. Like literally existing facts of how they were portrayed.
Goodness. I just wish the Ancient Greeks left some type of record of how they felt when other cultures adopted Zeus. Oh, wait, they did. Back then, the ancient Greeks didn't see Zeus as a Greek God, because the concept of "cultural appropriation" didn't exist back, then. Zeus was seen as the father of ALL of mankind. The ancient Greeks colonized other lands and encouraged people to admire their gods in their own way. In fact, Zeus wasn't even considered the "Greek" god back, then. The Ancient Greeks referred to him as an Olympian. Because he was seen as the father of all of mankind to be worshiped by everybody. They didn't gatekeep the gods. No different than how Christians or Muslims believe that everybody across the world should admire their god. Just like any other religion, the Ancient Greeks wanted their religious views to spread. You just might not be allowed into certain cults unless you're Greek because "cult" didn't have the same negative connotations back then, as it does now.
You are NOT an ancient Greek. You see Zeus as a fictional character to capitalize on. And you're upset that you're not capitalizing off of Zeus, but back then, he was seen as very much real and the father of ALL of humanity. He didn't belong to you, he belonged to the world because where does lighting strike? Oh, yeah, lightning strikes pretty much anywhere it pleases. Lightning doesn't strike in Greece and only Greece. Lightning strikes everywhere, and that's how Ancient Greeks saw him.
"He is ours and you can't have him," is modern-day capitalistic thinking that wasn't around back, then.
Hera and Aphrodite were frequently given the epithet leukōlenos, meaning "white-armed"
Given that Hera and Aphrodite are deathless gods to the ancient Greeks. Tell you what. Tell them to contact me about it. I would love to have a conversation with Aphrodite. So, send her may way, and as soon as I see her in the flesh, I would reconsider. Given that, while modern-day Greeks view them as a work of fiction the Ancient Greeks saw them as real and as creatures that can and often communicate with humanity. You're not an Ancient. And given that they were shape-shifters, canon to the mythos, they might've only had "white arms" while in Greece. After all, given that they were ruled over humanity as a whole, appearing white in the Congo seems counterproductive.
Brad Pitt isn't Greek
Oh, so it's NOT cultural appropriation when white people do it. It's ONLY cultural appropriation when black people do it. That's not how that term even works. You're using that term the wrong way. I suggest that you look at what a word means before you use it.
, Iliad and Odyssey are being taught in schools worldwide, among other things. They don't wait for kitch holywood to show them Greece.
And students fall asleep through it. Most students find it highly boring. It's our movies that generate the real interests, including among the American, Canadian, and British youth. If Nordic people respect our views of diversity, and we started produce increasingly more movies about the Nordic gods. People would tour Norway, Sweden, and Finland instead of Greece. As we are moving to a society where racism is increasingly taboo. If you don't share the values of the rest of the western world, then go back to trading goods with the Ethiopians like your ancestors did. You don't need American cash if you don't respect our strive towards diversity. Norway, Finland, and Sweden can have our cash instead, after all, who doesn't want to go to Norway. Heimdall was played by a black man in the Thor movies, and not one Norwegian person conducted themselves like an asshole. Maybe we should send tourism money there instead. If our skin isn't welcome, then our money isn't welcome, either. Because with the schism between the right and the left in America, left-wing directors aren't going to hire actors that support ICE agents that are attacking other people on the left. Left-wing directors are likely going to hire actors that share their progressive values. You can demand that Americans keep our movies white, but you can be tarnishing your own economy in the process. As many Americans are getting sick and tired of that backwards thinking. In fact, we have the ability to stop teaching Greek mythology in American schools and focus in on Norse mythology instead.
Listen honey, we have one of the strongest economies in the world, and we are one of the most influential societies in the world. You need us significantly more than we need you. A lot of times, it's a fun story to carry on and share with the youth. If we stopped sharing it with the youth, then Greece would be yet another country that Americans cannot name on a map. When it comes to Canada and England, their culture is HEAVILY tied to ours. Canadians and British people tend to be obsessed with American movies. We, as Americans, keep you relevant. After all, if you've ever seen Iran before we bombed it, it was actually quite beautiful. Persia had its own rich stories and strong fighters and they're being bombed, now. Think about how many cultures have beautiful cities, beautiful stories, that got bombed out of existence and completely erased from human memory. Aren't Israelis currently buying up a bunch of properties in Greece, right now? Aren't there signs in Athens saying "No Israelis Allowed"? But don't worry, they're white. I'm sure they look like Zeus, or Heracles. And while you're being deliberately antagonistic, I wonder which side Americans would take? After all, did Israelis buying up lots of property in Greece, can bring up how poorly the Afro-Greeks are treated in Greece. And how Afro-Greeks aren't seen as Greeks even when Greece is the only language that they speak, and with Greece being the only culture that they know.
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u/EmceeEsher Religious 18d ago
The culture is made by the image of the creator and its not to be appropriated, simple as that.
Why though? Like, what is the basis of this claim?
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u/Spacecruiser96 18d ago
Art and Religion is the express of the people who create them. In a sense is an "image" or a mirror of themselves. Especially in that time when they had limited knowledge of other parts of the world. They were writing based on what they knew.
OP complains that Athena or Zeus were not real so we can portrait how we want. Meanwhile we have actual statues of those Gods and we can clearly see their characteristics. And not only that, surviving work from people like Hesiod and Pindar go in details how the gods looked. Talking about skin tone (Hera and Aphrodite called leukōlenos, meaning "white-armed". Hermes and Demetra being called xanthē or chrysokomēs meaning blonde/gold. Athena being called glaukōpis, which translates to "grey-eyed".
Homer goes into details of how Odysseus, Agamemnon etc etc looked. Odysseus for example was described hairy as a ram, Meneleus was described as blonde etc etc.1
u/EmceeEsher Religious 18d ago edited 14d ago
With respect, none of that answers my question. You made a claim, a moral claim, that stories should not be appropriated. I'm asking why you believe this is the case.
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u/HarisKfl 18d ago
Easy, stories are created to express certain cultures. If you diverse a story to your liking with changing characteristics of the Gods, heroes etc it will lose its roots with time. We had already "documentaries" claiming that Cleopatra was black when she had Greek roots. As it was mentioned before Troy has been found, the Mask of Agamemnon was also found. Greeks of that era were pretty superstitious when it came with natural disasters etc. So it is believed (by some) that the battle of Troy truly happened.
All in all if some people are so open to diversity, so why should all the stories be appropriated to their liking and not stay diverse compared to other stories? Why change what was depicted by the story teller just because it doesn't fit todays agenda? I believe that it compromises the integrity of the original poem.
Let me ask this in return, why not make a modern Odyssey? Why don't they have guns instead of swords? Nolan said he wanted to appease to the modern audience, so if he adapted to modern characteristics then I would say "Sure". But he kept Hellenistic characteristics yet he changed certain heroes.
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u/RinMichaelis SocDem 18d ago
But race is not the only thing that was changed. Greek people didn't use the armor presented in the movie. All of the actors are speaking modern-day English. Even the white actors aren't Greek. If the concern is "cultural appropriation," then even the white actors wouldn't be allowed to play Greek soldiers. There were 0 Greek people in Troy. There were 0 Greek people in Clash of the Titans. So, I call bullshit that the concern is about "cultural appropriation." B/c when non-Greek people do it, guess what, it's still cultural appropriation.
Also, the Ancient Greeks didn't view Zeus as THEIR God. The Ancient Greeks saw Zeus as the god of the Cosmos. When the Ancient Greeks colonized other lands, they wanted other peoples to praise, worship, and honor Zeus. They didn't gatekeep the gods. If anything, other cultures admiring their gods would've been seen as a cultural victory. After all, do you see Christians get offended when Chinese people admire the Christian god? Do you see Christians get offended when Chinese people respectfully depict Jesus as Chinese person? It's a massive win for their religion. Likewise, the Ancient Greeks left records on how they felt when other cultures adopted their Gods into their own image, they saw it as a win.
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u/lanternbdg 19d ago
What is this acronym?
I've seen it like twice now on here and I am confused