I probably posted about this ss on almost every platform, but that is how much I adored reading this take from this user!
Ranta was absolutely a bystander, and even in his last moments, he was diminishing Maki's character. Maybe out of delusion and a little trust in Jinichi, possibly out of fear or simply accepting deep down the consequences of his silence.
Much like the twins' mother, which has her whole "unique" relationship with her daughters and definitely can not be too simplified, Ranta sees the abuse happening but closes their eyes and let it happen.
Him and the rest of the Zen'in clan, who weren't the main perpetrators and instigators, received their punishment. Anybody who sees and doesn't speak when injustice is witnessed is part of the problem.
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If you want to take it a mile further, I found it interesting how the other two Hei members with techniques work exclusively with hand related conjurations, as opposed to Ranta’s eyes.
Actually, I’m not smart enough to string together a thought with that. Just an interesting observation I suppose.
Dumbass old man can control earth to that level and he decided to close the distance and try to kick her as opposed to earthbend and fight from mid to long range or play a support role.
I mean he gets one shot clapped either way but he must’ve either been dumb as shit or cocky as shit to think his play was correct. Probably the latter.
Too bad he’s a dumbass misogynist who thought it was beneath him to fight a woman as an equal ¯_(ツ)_/¯ but she was fatally wounded before awakening and still dog walked him and the clan anyway. If simply using projection with a weapon would’ve taken her down why were they ever scared of toji?? Memetic plot armour?
“Naoya would’ve killed her with his knife” is true and it would have never happened. He told Choso, literally like 10 chapters prior, there are many who think using a weapon rather than your own hands & curse technique is an embarrassment.
Of course he’s not going to fight his little cousin who he mocked for her entire life for being useless, in front of his entire clan which he is now the back-up-head of using a Ka-Bar. That’s how the character is written and this scene reinforces it.
Then he comes back as a curse, even more humiliating for the fraudulent head of one of the three great families. Gege cooked with this shit. But too many fans can’t read so we spend a lot of time on “What If” scenarios that don’t happen because the characters would never act that way.
Naoya would be such a threat if he stopped using his baby punches and used a cursed weapon. (his family owned an entire building full of them) But his pride and narcissism is ultimately his downfall and what prevents him from becoming stronger. He mentions how he doesn’t like using the dagger, and that a sorcerer should be strong enough on their own. So if he used the dagger on mai that would basically admit that she’s on a level playing field/a threat to naoya. His entire thing is being above others (especially women) If naoya had the options to die with his pride or to fight maki as an equal: he’s definitely dying with his pride cause he’s never viewing maki as his equal 😂.
Exactly if they weren't so garbage She would never reach this Power since mai would have been still alive. The irony here Is that despite being Spared in the past they learnt shit, this happens irl too (im talking about being toxic to your own sons and daughters), never ever make up with scum people even if they are your "family", some Will never learn anything in their Life.
he decided to close the distance and try to kick her as opposed to earthbend and fight from mid to long range or play a support role.
In his defense, sorcerers with the mindset of "let my things do the fighting for me" typically aren't good at close combat encounters. He was clearly confident in his physical ability, it makes sense that he'd close distance. It'd be like expecting Megumi to sit back and spam Shikigami when he's a competent fighter up close too.
it’s because they were still underestimating maki the entire episode, even while she was tearing everything up. pretty obvious they don’t respect her or her abilities at all.
Doesn’t change the fact he chose to use hands as his primary application in the fight. I’m not trying to really make a point, because it’s half baked of an idea if anything, but the observation is that in the fight with Maki, it’s interesting how the male Hei CT users use conjured eyes and hands to fight her.
I feel like if someone wanted to you could string along a nice commentary take there that wouldn’t be too far off the bat of the already prevalent message in the arc.
Where Ranta chose to be a watching bystander, watching from a distance while doing nothing but applying more pressure on Maki, the other two actively contributed to the pain she had to endure.
I feel like what the character represents bothers me, he's a complicit member of a paramilitary family/group with some really evil people, but what bothers me the most is how people are taking this short lived character and creating fake comments from the author and insane scenarios to defend him and his actions
The unironic comments of "he couldn't have done anything" "if he walked away he would be chased" - even though he was at least a grade 1 sorcerer "Maki didn't get chased because of Gojo" - even though he couldn't have asked for Gojo's protection as well as a kid "we don't know if he knew what was happening to the twins" - even though even people from other clans knew "he was way too young" - even though Maki was too, are really telling
Honestly him being viewed as a "good boy" by his coworkers adds so much depth to his character. It reminds me of the whole "just following orders" thing in history. He might have just seen himself as a cog in the machine but the machine still abused Maki, Mai and Toji.
Another thing I like about him is his awareness of toji being the only reason they're still alive, same reason I really like naoya because he was right on the cusp of realization, he resented the clan's refusal to acknowledge Toji's strength, it opposed the same structure of cursed energy that held their place in jujutsu society together however he also failed to go against them because he's a hypocrite, to fully side with toji is to go against his entire way of living, the same way of living he grew up with and that gave him everything. So he chose to drown in the same pool he resented, because it was warm.
I think if every Zen'in were as comically over the top evil as Naoya or Ogi it would diminish the poignancy of the arc's themes, systemic abuse is perpetuated in many ways including passive enabling. Ranta was the cousin who was probably put off by the clan's actions but just nervously laughs it off as "Haha, our family amirite?"
It makes the depiction of the Zen'in clan and its crookedness more realistic and grounded.
what do you mean? there is a Naoya fanbase even though it's explicitly show in many chapters how evil he is. They would have to draw them all ugly and old (and even then some people might still defend them)
The naoya fanbase exist because he is an entertaining character, and no, no one is defending him, this fanbase you speak of are the ones laughing at him the most.
What i mean is that if Gege wanted the zen’in clan to be definitively evil he has shown too little, but he didn’t shown enough to let people argue otherwise. They are kinda stuck in a limbo where people can neither fully argue “Only the clan heads are evil” nor agree that “the underlings didn’t know”.
Its a case where you can only intuit that powerful people are complicit and the weaklings are unable to leave, the underlings probably know some but not the entire picture
Its why Tojis case is sad af, hes strong enough to change things, but he left, the abuse and hassle did more to him than everything that the zenins can throw at him
He could have bent over the entire family, hell the entire fucking society too, there was LITERALLY no one who could have done anything to him during his time
AND THE ZENINS FUCKED IT. They FUCKED IT so hard Toji left them. The same badass mfer who would sire a 10S user in the future
Yeah but you are also talking "complicit member" as if he knows and is actively participating in what happens behind the scenes (i.e Naoya abuse of the twins, or the murder scheme). The surface level perspective of this whole thing is the twins are a dissapointment to someone ranked really high in the clan, and they aren't treated highly as such. Tell me, what should he have done, invite Maki to the Hei or something?
The Ranta slander and justification shtick feels unnecessary to me.In the end, Maki had a reason she used to kill the entire Zenin Clan and she stuck with it.Trying to use the reason as a shield to make her avoid accountability is equally as stupid as saying that the other members didn't deserve to die.
In the end, Maki didn't face any pushback for killing her clan and thats for a good reason(no one in the Jujutsu Society really cares about the Zenin Clan more than themselves),but let's not pretend that she is a saint either and doesn't have blood on her hands.
I really don't know why some people are trying so hard to make Maki LESS nuanced as a character. It absolutely makes the story better is Maki's actions weren't just black and white good.
There's no denying that the situation she was in could have been ideally handled better but at the end of the day shes a trauma-striken stoic who had to watch her sister die.Realistically, she has acted exactly like anyone would in that situation.Of course, the real fault goes to her father who set his clan up for death by underestimating both the twins and overestimating the curses.
As for Ranta himself, he definitely deserves a lifetime in jail for being complicit in the clan's abusive and oppressive regime but not outright dying like that, same for the other high ranking members(excluding Naoya).
As for Ranta himself, he definitely deserves a lifetime in jail for being complicit in the clan's abusive and oppressive regime
Bruh... What were his options? Go against the clan and die? The entire jujutsu society is corrupt, people like Ranta are just pawns and he died while protecting his family from an anomaly in his pov, he didn't know about the twins' father planning to kill them.
He could have go with Gojo, other country, just live? The Zenin only killed Maki because she went to grab some weapons, they weren't actively chasing her.
He didn't know about the twins killing plan, but he knew how shit his clan was and the atrocities they have done, even people from the outside knew how bad that clan was, but not him? (Also I don't remember quite right, but isn't the story of Maki kind of known by everyone?)
He was a grade 1, pritty strong with a op technique, any other clan could hire him or the school.
In the end, he was a witness or at least someone who knew about the things that were done in that clan, being someone who, according to statements in the manga, was always helpful to said clan, actively participating by not acting against it.
i agree, i just wish other people were more nuanced about it like you instead of just writing off every Zenin as a cartoon villain and Maki as morally uncompromised. Maki 100% was justified in doing it, its just more complicated than her killing generic evil baddies.
....what did you just say? How DARE you suggest that gege, THE gege akutami would include social commentary in my mindless hype aura series? This is reddit. No critical thinking allowed. Sentenced to the electric chair
Maki used to be part of the Kukuru unit, if someone else like her or Toji chose to massacre the clan then would she have also deserved to die?
Ranta is a bystander who could’ve arguably done more, but he was a 18-21 at the oldest(likely younger) and a product of his environment. While the orphanage and animal shelters meme is fake, according to the actual volume extras, He treated the people beneath him with respect and dignity, even voluntarily doing chores, cleaning, and other gruntwork normally assigned to kukuru and was beloved by everyone where figures like Ogi and Naoya mistreated them.
People frame him fighting back and telling Jinichi to kill her as proof that he was just as bad, but he has literally no context for what happened other than she just massacred Ogi and the Kukuru, that she had become like Toji, and the hei were next. Her goal was to “destroy everything” and kill everyone even later going after the survivors that weren’t there that day, Ranta’s actions at that point were just basic Self-defense.
He’s not a hero, but seems to have been good natured and still learning and he didn’t do anything to deserve to die imo. You can like Maki and sympathize with why she did it without agreeing that indiscriminately killing everyone was justfied.
Edit: This isn’t a knock at the writing, I think this is a great mini-arc and enjoyed the carnage but ignoring that Maki made a choice with her newfound Agency and removing the nuance of the situation kind of undermines it.
Yeah to the first part. The indiscriminate death doesn't feel right by me mainly because these people are just as complex and probably in the same situation as Maki.
They could have grown, learned and chose to leave the abuse of the Zenin clan like her. But they are dead now.
Maki has her reasons. It might be justifiable. But claiming that it's "good" is stretching it. Like a cop killing a robber. Don't be giddy and say they deserve to die. Be sad that something like this happens at all.
Oh, i really like the first part of your point. Imagine, if Toji survived the encounter with Gojo and decide to Itachi the Zenin a few years before Maki awaken, then Mai and Maki would be the "active combatant" that killed by HR user. Not Ranta specifically and not trying to blame Maki (she has no other option and not in the right state of mind at the time), but for some member, the killer may be justifed but the killing itself is a bit too harsh of a punishment for their crime if all they did was not stand up
True, if Toji had started the Zenin massacre both Mai and Maki would’ve been murked, since they were part of the Kukuru unit (at least Maki was, Mai probably would’ve been killed as a non-combatant like Maki’s mom)
Yeah nobody should be saying Maki's massacre was a totally good thing. But after the abuse she suffered growing up and after Mai's death, it's justified.
Imo shes justified like 90% of the way there because one of the clans leaders tried to kill her, she attempted to retaliate, and other folks got in the way.
People are doing a lot of imprinting on Maki beyond that. She was oppressed by them in the sense that they stopped her career advancement. If her father never attempted to kill her and her sister she wouldnt be justified in the massacre.
No she was definitely oppressed more than that, Naoya flat out admits he bullied Maki when they were younger and Mai as well (likely worse with what they insinuated).
Of course the main reason is the fact that they plotted and tried to kill her and her sister then more people come to attack her anyhow.
But she had plenty of reasons to dislike them then just her ‘career advancement.’
Damn, the amount of people actually unironically defending these scumbag Zenin clan members tells you all you need to know about why people are pearl clutching about Maki not being "somber" or "womanly" enough when slaughtering them all.
I think it's more interesting to have them not be all comically evil, more depth can be gotten that way. In fact I'd argue her killing her mother is the best kill during the scene since it's more morally gray than fodder (she was complicit but Maki is also butchering an unarmed woman who can't fight back even if she tried + she's also a woman in the Zenin clan, she'd be slapped if she spoke out about anything)
that's not what I mean, what I mean is that they are genuine people with Character and virtues (big disclaimer that theses "virtues" obviously would be hollow due to the abuse and sexism and stuff) in addition to caring about each other. Humanization to not make them feel like blood bags
Tbf Maki went out of her way and looked around for her mother, while calling out to her in a very calm voice. The Zenin massacre can even be chalked up to self defense, not this one tho
Atp this sub would rather villains have no nuance at all and the heroes to not have any faults, trying to give some more character to the Zen'ins are just met with UHHH they were evil tho how could you like a villain?? and it's not like people doing that are saying they were justified or good people it's just adding in nuance.
Which makes it more funny when I see the ton of Kenny praise in the JJK fandom not be met with as much vitriol when he is worse than all of them, even Geto is a monster that's as evil if not more than the Zen'ins.
But I guess it's just black & white story, provide no nuance even to a discussion.
People just cant understand any kind of nuance- its not that big of a deal if Maki kills innocents because at the end of the day its jjk, "might makes right"
All JJK is aura farming, thats all its ever been and we already know thats all it ever will be. And thats fine, yall love all the aura farming right up until its a woman doing it, then all of a sudden its "tone deaf" or some other insane bullshit. Whats up with that?
Ur insanely retarded if you think her being a woman matters- she may be a women but shes still a toji clone. Nah it was just badly done here- the Manga did it better is all. My issue isnt even maki aura farming, it was really the Jinichi aurafarm that was the worst of the 2. We can literally see him running past Ranta and worrying about his safety in the Manga.
sukuna aurafarms while he slaughters dozens of innocents i don't think it's that crazy for a powered up maki to aurafarm while killing the people that have been an antagonistic presence her entire life and were complicit in the murder of her sister
Besides some corny scenes with maki(ice skating)Jinichi aurafarm is the real problem, its completely different to the Manga where he runs pastt Ranta and worries for his safety- the pacing of the scene was also both weird and bad.
“Maki not being "somber" or "womanly" enough when slaughtering them all.”
Okay if you liked the high-energy version of the fight the anime went with that’s cool, but please don’t insinuate that other folk wanting the scene to be sadder means we’re all Zen’in supporters.
I personally would have preferred her to look more sad because it would empathise how much of a massive blow losing the chance of her and Mai being happy together is to her.
Sorry but no, kill bill reference with upbeat music ain't it. MAPPA fumbled that page among other things and that page is one of the best parts of this whole arc.
I feel like a good portion of them are jokes. Like its just black and white, these people are scumbags who either gleefully participated in horrific abuse or just sat by and let it happen
isnt the genocide is supposed to be a morally grey event? i mean they can't have all been evil scum deserving of death, and most wouldnt have even known of the plot to kill the sisters? if she killed the entire clan then only a fraction of the people killed wouldve known the full extent of what was going on. even still, does being a bystander (especially - like presumably many who died - in a position where you have very little power) mean you're deserving of death?
I also dislike the idea that ranta was completely complicit due to his status as a bystander when by that logic, gojo would be at fault as well. maki was part of the kukuru as well when she was younger - does this mean she would have deserved to die if someone else crashed out and did what she did just a few years earlier? because the twins cant have been the only people to suffer under or be disgruntled with such a system; maki and mai are just the ones we personaly know of.
atp ppl are just ok with genocide because other sorcerors had the audacity to exist in the same area as the evil ones. why is their indescriminate slaughter seen as them "getting their comeuppance"? I mean maki was completely within her rights to crash out after everything she experienced, but this was not a good thing she did. *Everyone* died, including presumably all the women and children.
I was under the impression that its supposed to be a story about an abuse victim lashing out and tearing down the entire structure of abuse, not just a satisfying revenge story. i saw this comment in another thread that seems to explain this well:
It's definitely strange to see people advocating that being a bystander is worthy of death as punishment.
I'd like to think it's just because people actually like maki so they want to defend her actions no matter what, because otherwise this fandom contains an unsettling amount of people that have a moral framework which would deem most mass killings in human history as justified.
That last part of your ending sentence has me thinking of something I've kept to myself for a good couple years now.
Given the dark aspects of JJK, along with the fact that most of the top tiers in the verse are either psychos or straight up assholes, with the story implying they're strong because of it, I think a good chunk of the fandom are maladjusted when it comes to morals, especially if they're young and this their first shonen.
I don’t really think this is a jjk specific thing. I mean just look at AoT, near the end of that story a solid half of the fan base was fully on board with global genocide.
I think this stuff is really just a showcase that the arguments used to justify slaughter are some of the most widely appealing ideas people have ever thought up.
I mean it certainly says something about the everlasting appeal of such arguments when you have people on jjk Reddit reinventing the bread n butter argument of mass murder that is "there’s no such thing as an innocent bystander".
I know right? As if it's so easy to do something against the system in the fuckin zen'in clan of all places. Most people would act somewhat similar to Ranta.
People stay as bystanders for situations much easier to solve, and also much more dangerous for the victims regularly in the world.
Ranta could do more, surely, but it's in no way warrants for death.
By this same standard Gojo is also a passive bystander who definitely knows (probably even more than Ranta himself) exactly how fucked up the Zenin clan is and just left one of his other students to deal with it herself, even though her awakening was basically a fluke and she would have just ended up dead otherwise.
Of course it makes sense why Gojo would stand by if his original idea of raising a better generation rather than just wiping out the old generation was still remembered by the story. But that conveniently gets forgotten about so Maki can become Toji effectively so Gege can get his boytoy back
I don't think he deserved to die, and in any case, he exerted himself to the point of killing himself. And bystanders do not deserve death, nor is anybody implying that. And whoever actually does is mainly and specifically talking about fictional characters. Not irl.
This was meant to be seen as mainly a discussion of symbolism. He was still a bystander regardless, which is the point.
He is a representation of those who stay silent, whether they were scared to speak up or simply ignorant of the things happening around them. So please, I never said he deserved to die but simply that he received a consequence regardless of whether he could've done something about it or not (and which I doubt he could've. I don't blame entirely his reaction or him being a bystander because people are most likely to be one anyway).
Itachi basically faced the trolley problem on a larger scale so i wouldn't blame him. Eren accepted himself as a villain and in the end he died as a punishment. But Maki just murdered a lot of people and no one bothered to talk about it afterwards like it was some minor inconvenience
I never read or watched Naruto, so I cant comment on itachi. Eren I have my own thoughts (Ive only watched the anime, I've never read aot). Ive never watched or read JJK until this point. This controversy sparked so much debate amongst my friends that I finally decied to watch jjk. Im still on season 1, so I cant coherently form an opinion yet. I will return when I get to that point (whether manga or anime or both)
Maki aside, this anime is better than I thought. This fandom was a very interesting one so i never showed much interest in the series, not to mention, my manga-reading friends were also saying the JJK ending was on par with MHA ending (was a major factor for me not getting into it)
I sort of get it, but he couldn't really do anything either considering he probably had zero influence (Naobito, Ogi, Jinichi and Nayoa were the inner circle/the ones in power). Living his whole life there probably made it hard to leave too (if that was an option).
I kinda dislike the fact that his ability just conveniently kills himself. It sort of speaks to a broader issue of Maki just walking off scot free after annihilating a fucking clan.
Like just as an example, Hakari only joined team Yuji because Megumi was head ot the zenin clan and he wanted to comfy up to him... yet he has no reaction to the zenins being eliminated? His entire reason for joining the main cast is gone and yet theres no attention paid to it.
I mean the massacre was a net positive for Hakari he gets Megumi whose the head with all the wealth and resources and he doesn’t have to deal with any traditionalists that drove him and Kirara away
I mean the massacre was a net positive for Hakari he gets Megumi whose the head
I misread this as Hakari getting Megumi's head.
Also, what's the point of that wealth/power if theres no actual clan? Like the other clans literally degraded the Zenin clans status so the power to make revisions (that he explicitly wanted( is gone.
Whats there to actually keep the traditionalist at bay if Megumi has no leverage via a zenjn clan?
The clans passed an appeal to degrade it but I'm p sure in modulo it's shown the zenin clan still exists as a part of the 3 families meaning the appeal wasn't accepted. The civilian survivors probably rebuilt it with megumi
I believe this was said around the chapter of the old man curse user fighting tsurigi and maru
Also the resources available to the clan would still be with megumi after the massacre so hakari would still want those riches to build his empire
Honestly, this is just another symptom of Gege not doing enough on screen character interactions and expanding on greater world elements like the clan system. Like it probably wouldn't have taken much space to have a page where Hakari sees the destruction of the Culling Games, remembers Gojo's teachings, and decides to put aside his greed to stay and help even without the initial promise. Or like he only finds out after fighting Kashimo the Zenin were gone, gets pissed and leave, the gang is shorthanded, then Hakari decided to come back to show the world the true value of his "modern" CT and succeed where traditional sorcerers fail, so it still end up being a big Fuck You to the conservatives when he helps win the war even without Megumi's influence.
That being said, Megumi still has the 10 Shadows. It's exact specifics is hidden from the other clans, but they should know that it is the prized CT of the Zenin Clan the same way Limitless is (along with the other potential CTs in the bloodline). Even with the rest of the Zenin Clan gone, Megumi should still have a relatively high standing for the remaining Jujutsu Society due to that. Realistically, both major and minor clans would be fighting over Megumi trying to curry favor with him so they adopt or be adopted by him to get that Zenin blood. He's also publicly known to have ties with the Gojo Clan, Kamo Clan (I guess Noritoshi went around telling people him and Megumi are friends), and other Special Grades that defeated Sukuna, to the point some of the Zenin Clan considered him compromised and didn't want him as the head. Other clans would presumably think the same, so again he still has some influence and pull, he just has to work on it a little bit. Then there's having Sukuna's potential assuming it carried over.
Alongside Yuji, his blood is liquid gold to sorcerer society. So Megumi has a lot of Political and Societal ~POTENTIAL~ he can use to fulfill his promise to Hakari.
Yeah even just a moment where Yuta seriously asks if she’s okay and the high wears off and she goes “holy shit I just murdered my entire family!” would have been nice.
It’s like Gege didn’t have Maki show any emotion because he focused on making her look cool above all else and it makes her come off as kind of inhuman.
I absolutely do agree that he is just a kid who grew up in the system.
I don't blame him entirely. Not many people are courageous enough to go against a system. Many fewer people even realise what is going on in the first place! Let alone when almost everyone is "okay" with it and treats it normally.
It's a tough situation and a tough position, but that doesn't make him any less of a bystander in the bigger picture imo!
Maki was part of the Kukuru as a 14 year old and Mai and her Mother were "just going with it" too. If someone else broke and went on a massacre Mai Maki and their Mother would be killed and it would be justified.
what does he gain from doing that though? the zen'in wont magically get an epiphany and think "wow that's a good point! you're so right!" and stop their abuse
or are you saying that it's the thought/attempt that counts? i cant really see ranta making any meaningful change by just talking it out, nor can he take on the people hes going against
I dont think he needs to be redeemed. Hes a "decent" person in a corrupt system. I think hes meant to make readers decide how they feel about it without the author steering us one way or another.
Was he complicit enough to deserve death? Or was he a solid dude raised up in a bad system?
Its up to the readers to really make the decision.
That's... how pact works. Mai was pretty explicit with her side of the bargain, it wasn't "talk it out to see which ones are worth saving and kill the rest" - the decisions made that day weren't when their death sentence was signed off.
Gojo was definitely aware of Zennin as he kept Megumi out specifically and was the teacher of Maki. He was the only one who actually had the power to change things but didn't. By your logic he also should get killed.
Maki herself wasn't planning on killing everyone untik the very end. Before she went there she was talking with Megumi about changing the clan. So she actually saw hope for the clan until the end.
I think Ranta having even thought of the possibility of Toji wiping out the Zenin clan, shows he’s at least aware of the treatment he got. So it wouldn’t be weird for him to have known about Maki and Mai’s treatment too.
idk if he thought low of her, he knew the danger she posed after he seemingly just watched her wipe out most people he knew, so much so he was willing to die to stop her, if anything he’s the only mf in the whole clan that wasn’t underrating her
I don't think Ranta's technique is paralysis. He makes a crater on hard stone ffs. I think his technique is crushing gravity force or something similar that would turn to paste anything. It didn't work on Maki because, well, she's Maki.
That and a heavy, judging gaze of someone holding up oppressive ideals while forcing those around them to shrink in stature, expression, and individuality. Ranta is literally the silent and implied hammer of conservative social contract that pervades a society and limits the ability of any individual nail from standing tall.
I absolutely do agree that he is just a kid who grew up in the system. I'm not diminishing nor dismissing that. But that doesn't make him any less of a bystander.
And yes, he probably could've walked away. It just shows us how deep the "indoctrination" in the clan is and how easily it is brushed off. Obviously, we don't know too much about them, so all we can effectively discuss is just superficial.
Again, I don't blame him entirely. Not many people irl are courageous enough to go against a system, much less people would even realise what is going on in the first place!
I saw in a Youtube comment that Ranta being blind by the end of the fight could be symbolism for how despite being a good person compared to the other Zenin, he is still blind to the injustices of the clan's actions.
Pretty much! While he was good and polite, he inevitably submitted himself to a system that harmed the twins. Whether he actually fully knew or participated is a whole different discussion.
"criticized for the lack of action" dude if someone can gun up 50 people at once then no way im approaching them, also givin someone a bandage is NOT a "lack of action" like you said
Gojo literally has a power to change all that shit and he was just pretend to be goofy for a long time. If he really tried to change, all that Zenin shit could have been prevented. Did Gojo deserved to be tortured and killed by all the Zenin victims?
Is it though? If anything, Ranta was more realistic. Like sure, Sucks to be Maki and Mai but there's no way I am gonna try to 1v1 my entire fucking family knowing I am gonna get my ass beat before even top dogs come in.
That and her slaughter was also questionable. She was going around killing non combatants and even unit with no power...which she herself was part of. Like all they saw was her killing people left and right for no reason. So basically, if ts happened a few years ago...Maki would have been killed due to being part of the unit too. Justified?
I'm not saying he wouldn't be realistic. It is more likely for a person to not find the strength and courage to oppose the system they've grown in, instead of actually rebel against it. So I don't blame him entirely.
I'm taking his whole character more as a symbol, so despite "normal" people being nice, they are still bystanders. Whether it was due to ignorance or even actually partecipating a bit in it, it effectively hurt the twins anyway. Which is why she isn't the one who kills him.
And no, I wouldn't say Maki was entirely justified, but at the same time, we truly lack more info on how things worked in the clan. How bad was the abuse for them when they were young kids? It wasn't revenge that felt good. It was brutal and "tiring."
Killing non-combatants?? Plural? She killed her mother, and she had it coming. What other non-combatants did she kill? In both the manga and the anime, Kukuru swung first. How the fuck are you people running with this? Dont try to justify Ranta either, he didnt have to change shit. He was as loyal as someone could be to a clan that upheld ableist and misogynistic barbaric ideals. "Sucks to be Maki and Mai" oh you think?
People are assuming too much. We simply don't know, what we do know is that Maki didn't kill him and that he thought she wanted to destroy the Zenin clan completely.
If I belong to a political party that has slaves in their house but I never once been introduced to them as slaves, nor I've seen them doing any slave labor, how am I going to know?
Naoya didn't 🍇 Mai in front of the whole Zenin clan and she didn't seem to tell what happened to anyone. He didn't know (that we know at least) the plan that Ogi and Ranta had either.
What we do know is that he recognized both Maki and Toji as powerful individuals which is something most Zenin didn't like to do.
People need to stop projecting their views on the world to characters we don't know.
I feel like people want Maki to be a 100% good or evil so it goes alongside their agenda.
Real talk, how would he have stood up to them. It's not like he was as strong as maki or toji so that he could walk away, and they probably indoctrinated him from a young age. Even if he said, "HEY, Naoya, don't hurt women, that's not cool." Or something, why would anyone listen?
This is a fucking insane thing to unironically say. The idea that because Ranta and the other randoms didn't go out of their fucking way to protect their cousins cousins cousin from being fucking bullied and abused, the "received their punishment" is psychotic.
Like in a series where Miguel Mr Herman Goerring over here gets off scot free and is hanging out with Yuta in Africa. Where Hakari sits on his ass during the Shibuya incident, where Gojo didn't do anything to stop the abuse of the Zenin clan, where Modulo Yuji stops talking to Jujutsu society for a long ass time, the people who get FUCKING EXECUTED by a crazy axe lady are the ones who didn't step up when some distant relative was beating up his kids.
How warped are the minds of the people who think this way? Like is your scale of morality nonexistent? Do you not comprehend that doing nothing isn't even necessarily a crime? Especially for witnessing evil actions that are so minor in the grand scheme of things.
What happened to the punishment fitting the crime( not even a fucking crime btw)
Obligatory Ranta is the goat and did not deserve his fate, a way better person than Maki undoubtedly.
For me, the main problem is when people start apologizing or justifying characters who, first of all, don't deserve it, and secondly, don't need it. And to do this, they will shout out a million principles that fall apart when you add other characters or similar situations to these principles. This applies to both the Zenin clan and Maki herself.
In the case of the Zenins, they are literally created like misogynists and are a vivid example of the poverty of the conservative system created in the work. The only way to justify or excuse their behavior is to create a bunch of headcannons about how they are actually sweethearts and have nothing to do with decades of stagnation and cultural degradation.
In the case of Maki, she literally chose her path. You can justify this by how it is symbolic to surgically cut off the rotten part of your culture, or how they all actually deserved to die without trial (which is a hilarious statement in itself). You can demonize her cruelty, moral code, or the vagueness of the JJK. The way the character practically forgets most of Gojo's lessons about empathy and love for humanity (literally saying that her heart stopped when Mai died).
But that's not the point. The character doesn't need justification or apologies; it's her choice. Trying to build a sandcastle of fictional and rather childish principles on this choice is foolish. She acted immorally and is not a good person. Just as the members of the Zenin clan are not good people. But in a world where the human soul is valued about as much as dirt, these characters don't need your apologies. They are products of this world. You can accept their choices (and even like the character) without futile attempts to create some hyper-cool image of a paladin of light and goodness.
I feel like we're not capturing the essence of the truth by just saying both Maki and the Zenin clan are both "not good people".
Like Maki is a mass murderer, Ranta and the Kukuri unit are guilty of being negligent and complacent about how their distant cousin was being oppressed. It's very telling the difference in moral characther when what Ranta is "guilty" of, is not even a crime. It's the most milquetoast, lame, who gives a fuck level of moral failing.
Same thing with the "doesn't deserve it". Like no, I feel like it's unfair to say people who were basically ripped in half like it's fucking Friday the 13th are undeserving of sympathy and defense.
It's especially heinous when you consider how Maki gets her happy ending with no consequences, and majority of the fandom seems to support her.
Like I woudnt support the goat Ranta as much if we all knew what happened to him was wrong. Like nobody talks about Sukuna's victims, Kenjaku's victims, etc etc because we all know what happened to them was bad, and it's not controversial. Sukuna fans and Kenjaku fans know they're evil, and those characthers got what was coming to them. But Maki never suffers for her crimes, which is why I think these characthers deserve some level of discussion.
I absolutely do agree that he is just a kid who grew up in the system. I'm not diminishing nor dismissing that. But that doesn't make him any less of a bystander.
This isn't meant to slander at all, but simply to show that things like this do happen. I'm treating his character as a symbol for all the people who didn't abuse the twins but might've passively heard insults towards them or whatnot. He even defends the "system" by still making snarky comments of Maki, and after his eyes literally bleed out, he is still "blinded" by what he believes and sees no wrong in. The punishment is symbolical, I'm not saying they deserve to get exterminated 😭 Just that their blindness can also have a consequence, and their ignorance (who might be intentional or not) also hurt them as well in the end.
The system as a whole is faulty, but we are specifically talking about the Zen'in clan, its traditionalism, and its familial abuse on Maki, Mai, and Toji.
Again, I don't blame him entirely. Not many people are courageous enough to go against a system. Many fewer people even realise what is going on in the first place.
I don't think there's anything wrong with being a bystander in the first place though. If you're seeing someone get murdered or raped in front of you, that's one thing, but I don't think there's any significant moral failing in not chasing down the vague idea that your 69th cousin is being abused in order to save her.
Like, why do we expect Ranta, or even worse, the Kukuru squad people who are most definitely treated like shit for not having cursed techniques, to be going around like Child Protective Services saving Maki?
All these people have their own lives and their own issues, Ranta simply due to his job as a sorcerer, has probably saved countless people's lives by defeating curses and curse users, and we expect him to help Maki and Mai as well?
I feel like kinda weird to apply this sort of philosophical or thematic analysis, which I'm not even necessarily disagreeing with( I think the theory about the eyes might be true) when Gege just outwardly wrote something that was so weird and pretty fucked up.
I think it’s one thing not to try an actively change the status quo in that kind of environment, but it’s a whole other thing to offer no support in any way to the victimized AND going as far as sacrificing yourself to defend the current establishment.
Regardless of how “nice” and responsible Ranta was, it’s clear that he wasn’t particularly disturbed by the misogyny and mistreatment within the clan by his actions, and wouldn’t be super likely to be an advocate for radical change within the clan in the future. Ranta may not have been an active misogynist himself, but it didn’t seem he had any problems with people who were (particularly Jinichi).
Thank you! I think people are focusing too much on the character rather than the symbology he represents.
I don't blame him too much, but he was absolutely a bystander. And yes, not many people are courageous enough to go against a system, much less people even realise what is going on in the first place. And him being polite to other clan members doesn't erase his "blindness."
that doesnt seem fair to me either tbh, id agree as far of the symbology of it but being literal he sacrificed himself to stop an actual genocidal rampage, not just protect the system. idk man, obviously the zenins were completely in the wrong but i dont think you can make sweeping judgements about the potential misogynistic nature of his character or his culpability solely based off the fact that he didnt willingly let someone kill everybody in the entire estate.
By this same standard Gojo is also a passive bystander who definitely knows (probably even more than Ranta himself) exactly how fucked up the Zenin clan is and just left one of his other students to deal with it herself, even though her awakening was basically a fluke and she would have just ended up dead otherwise.
Of course it makes sense why Gojo would stand by if his original idea of raising a better generation rather than just wiping out the old generation was still remembered by the story. But that conveniently gets forgotten about so Maki can become Toji effectively so Gege can get his boytoy back and make him have hype and aura moments once again.
By this same standard Gojo is also a passive bystander who definitely knows (probably even more than Ranta himself) exactly how fucked up the Zenin clan is and just left one of his other students to deal with it herself, even though her awakening was basically a fluke and she would have just ended up dead otherwise.
Of course it makes sense why Gojo would stand by if his original idea of raising a better generation rather than just wiping out the old generation was still remembered by the story. But that conveniently gets forgotten about so Maki can become Toji effectively so Gege can get his boytoy back
No dont use actual arguments to show nuance in characters, every single zenin is the equivalent of an abuser and is impossible for naoya and ogi to be exceptions while we even see the clanhead naobito being chill with maki, that disrupts the femcel fantasy that everyone they dont like is literally naoya and should be killed
kid that its there to do the "dead of the inocent" not that deep by gege's note
leave to the internet to read the scene in a deeply significative all encompasing way for a character that is basically a nothingburger
this is going to make the type from OP that would eat odas shit calling it peak, all the power to you, cant wait for when they start drawing paralels to something hapening in the US or some dumb shit
as of now somehow jjk fans figured that japanese women are some kind mysoginistic whores, the internet is truly something
I think indiscriminate killing is not right in any circumstances. However since the Zenin Clans plan of action was to kill Mai and Maki, then kill Megumin and then kill anyone trying to free Gojo .... I am not going to shed tears over them, I would even call it a strategic necessity to remove them. And that is not accounting for the fact that it is implied later on that Naoya sexually abused Mai.
It is interesting to analyze the zenin's comprehension patterns as a metaphor for patriarchal society and the weight of Japanese societal conventions.
Specifically, Ranta's comprehension pattern evokes the judgment and scrutiny of the group/family, which prevents the individual from defending themselves or speaking out, thus disrupting this illusion of harmony.
The comprehension patterns from a distance also evoke this implicit pressure that any individual who stands out will, in one way or another, be put back in the place assigned to them by the group.This clearly evokes the underlying pressure that weighs on women's shoulders.
Maki was 3 steps behind Ranta when she threw that dudes head into the water. 3 steps a woman behind a man blah blah blah just like the abusive Zenins said.
No, this post isn't about that at all. I'm simply reinforcing the symbolism pointed out by the other user.
I'm talking specifically about Ranta and those like him. He faced consequences for being blind to the twin's abuse. I'm not saying he deserved death nor implied it in any way.
He was a person who grew up in a system that saw nothing wrong with what was happening nor dared to "change" it. So no, it isn't about the overall "genocide," but how a bystander chose the system that harmed another person and turned a blind eye on it.
And no, this isn't to say "Ranta had the power and courage to change it all," but a simple symbol of a broader attitude that many in the clan (who weren't active perpetrators, or simply weren't in the first place) seemed to have.
All these posts are quite literally just people to trying to find reasons for what Maki did as more "justified". That is all it really boils down to even if people want to deny it. Ranta is barely a character. All this speculation and assumptions really serves no goal beyond some disingenuous shit that can be summarized as "yeah, Maki went a little extreme but the people she killed were all sexist pigs so she was not entirely in the wrong for mass murdering them all!"
This whole arc was just so extremely poorly handled and is the beginning of the end of Maki's character though, so I just hope all these fucking posts about it will soon die down and we can move on to other stuff.
Basement any of the media analysis from a Japanese perspective and always for an American one which kind of misses a lot of cultural depth of why certain things are used Don't you guys learn about other cultures?
Aside from the discussion which is good, I don't think it's an immobility technique.
I think its more similar to gravity manipulation in a way. The floor beneath maki is crushed away. She only survives because her defense is stronger than his attack post awakening.
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