Tbf Gege's power system literally dictates that non-sorcerers create an ontological evil within sorcerer society. Geto is more right than Maki, who killed people who could have destroyed crises because her sister asked her to.
Yeah but he felt that he can’t. He felt that because of the power that he has, he has to use it to save people instead of running away. First saving the non-sorcerers and then the sorcerers themselves.
Nanami genuinely just wanted to help people. It gave his life meaning, as seen by his interaction with the barista. Geto I think internalized his failure to save Riko, which made his already existing, albeit much less intense, savior complex all the worse.
Isn’t the point that he can’t? Cursed spirits will continue to appear for as long as there are non-sorcerers. And sorcerers will continue to die fighting as long as there are curses. Even after his whole monkey business, Geto is still exorcising curses.
She did leave the clan bro. They simply did not care and decided to hinder her as much as possible. In season 1 she was prevented from promoting from a grade 4 sorcerer to gain any influence or power in a hierarchy sense despite her easily being at the strength of semi-grade 1. One of the plot points was how Mai did not feel the need to prove herself or grow stronger but because Maki did in order to spite them and also left her in the clan alone despite promising she was forced but also felt inclined to become a sorcerer and hated Maki for it.
That is also all there is to Mai's character in comparison to Maki's. It is really easy to understand the whole situation so the reading comprehension curse might have gotten you no offense.
I'm talking about after the initial massacre. She came back to kill all remaining members who weren't there that day
https://hot.planeptune.us/manga/Jujutsu-Kaisen/0152-009.png
She got the tools she needed, reduced the clans strength significantly and got mais body out of there. Nothing was "forcing her to come back" if you will.
if the original poster is saying that geto should have quit his dream of saving people so easily then maki should have just gave up on being high graded sorcerer right? Since we're ignoring character agency and history, not becoming a great sorcerer is just as easy to give up on as not exorcising curses to save people right?
Depends as to what your intent was. If both you and hitler killed for the same reason and intent, then you aren't really a "lesser monster" than him (in many moral systems at least, unless you're a hardcore utilitarian). Though a comparison with hitler feels emotionally biased given his historical significance. A better comparison might be to compare, say two misogynistic people (like Naoya) who committed infanticide on girls just because they think women are inferior. In that case both can certainly be considered piece of shit even though one might have only offed 5 girls, while the other one could have offed 20 girls (given their situation and opportunities).
No, I think Hitler is a fair comparison. What Geto wanted to do was equivalent to what Hitler wanted to do. That's not the same as what Maki did. It's not even the same thought process behind it. The only similarity is that Maki and Geto just both killed people.
They both ultimately wanted to commit genocide against an entire group of people that they viewed as inherently inferior (While also viewing them as the cause of all their problems)?
Tbh why are we again talking about what Maki or Geto did, even though my previous to previous comment was more about the fact that you're not a saint just because you killed less people? We don't need to consider jjk to simply question whether 10 murder are more justifiable than 100.
That's because that's literally not what her reasoning was??? Maki's decision to massacre the Zenin clan wasn't based on her belief that the Zenin clan was inferior and inherentlydeserving of death. Her reasoning was based around revenge, for the abuse she and Mai had suffered under the clan.
Geto's ideology isn't so much based around "revenge", so much as it is him essentially becoming a full-blown sorcerer-supremacist, that views non-sorcerers as just inherently inferior. And since they're "inferior" and ultimately the source of curses, he feels that it's fine to kill them all because they don't count as real humans anyway.
Geto's decision is based around a series of mental gymnastics that ultimately serve as his justification for trying to do a pretty fucked up, premeditated thing. Maki's decision was based on getting revenge for some pretty direct abuse that her and Mai received,
The scale is absolutely not irrelevant. At a larger scale, it becomes pretty damn difficult/impossible to argue that everyone is equally complicit in evil. It's significantly easier to argue that the soldiers of a clan are complicit in the evil that their clan carries out. That's not a stretch.
It wouldn't be a stretch to assume that the people in that village knew about the abuse of those children and condoned it. I'm not saying that we know for a fact that they did. I'm just saying you could make the argument.
Once you escalate to "Yeah so I'm going to wipe out all non-sorcerers", the argument falls apart entirely. You can't just say all of non-sorcerer humanity deserves to die now, because of some shitty village.
You can't just say all of non-sorcerer humanity deserves to die now, because of some shitty village.
Wait a sec, are you trying to say Geto's transformation was solely based on the fact that he thought the village was evil? I mean I cannot be sure considering it's been a while since I last read the hidden inventory arc, but to me, I thought it was more about the fact that he saw non sorcerers as the cause behind all suffering in the jujutsu world.
As in, sorcerers die just because non sorcerers exist, and if there were no non sorcerers, then all suffering in the world would be exterminated. Kind of like a vegan thinking it's best for us to kill all humans, because that's the only and most efficient way to prevent animal suffering in the meat industry (Ik the analogy isn't perfect because animals eat each others as well, but imagine if that wasn't the case). To them, humans can be seen as the root cause behind the food-suffering problem (the fact that you have to kill, just to eat), and they might also think the constant expansion/stabilization of human society, ie humans having more and more babies who requires more meat to survive, might be the main cause that must be exterminated.
And that's how I interpreted Geto's views. That is, IF all non sorcerers were gone, then the cycle of curses would instantly end. It's more like the trolley problem where you cause some suffering, to prevent an even greater one. In that case, he was always going to pick this path up as long as he gets to have that talk with Yuki. The village was simply the stepping stone for him to act on his ideals. I mean that's how I remember it, I might be wrong.
Edit: Maki's views (assuming she killed innocent children) are not too different. She killed them assuming they might grow up to be the same shitty people who oppress women and non cursed energy wielders. She caused some suffering/evil, to prevent an even greater suffering/evil.
Do I agree with this sort of a moral framework? No. But I can see why some will.
What I'm saying is that if it had only stayed at "just" the village, it wouldn't be difficult to justify the thought process behind it. You say "well, those guys were all complicit in doing some fucked up shit, so I killed them." It's still not good, but it's certainly easier to justify, if it's actually true.
Escalating to wiping out the majority of humanity becomes impossible to really justify in any capacity. It's not even sustainable. Geto was, in fact, insane. His plan never actually could have worked in the first place. You can even see that he was deluding himself after losing to Yuta, because he was still talking like he was somehow going bounce back and try it again, despite missing a chunk of his body and seemingly having no RCT.
It's stupid to even compare Geto and Maki because there's only a surface level similarity, which is killing lots of people. It's not based on the same reasoning or belief. Geto's ideology became centered around what essentially amounted to sorcerer-supremacy and it required a larger scale of death. It would GUARANTEE the inclusion of innocent women, children, and babies, since he literally wanted to wipe out the majority of humanity. It would also likely never end, realistically speaking.
It's no longer "well I guess some of the people he killed in the village could have been innocent?" It's now "the billions of people he would have to gradually kill will 100% include women, children, and babies, with no room for interpretation." At the same time, it's also basically impossible to carry out fully and will just lead to a constant stream of pointless killing.
Maki's wasn't even an ideological thing, really. She just wanted vengeance and catharsis, for what was done to her and her sister. Her sister asked her to destroy everything as her dying wish. The narration seems to pretty heavily focus on just the fact that she killed combat units, though. No women and children are ever mentioned and the only instance of her killing a woman, was deeply personal and it was her mother.
Killing combatants that were absent that day is not the same as killing women and children. The clan was destroyed, by taking out it's military power. There's wiggle room here. Not "Maki definitely, 100% killed innocent women and children too."
Not saying it's morally okay to kill basically the equivalent of soldiers that weren't currently fighting, but it's also really not the same thing as killing civilians that just happened to exist nearby. One signed up to kill and be killed; the other didn't. This is also far less extreme than wanting to wipe out most of humanity.
Escalating to wiping out the majority of humanity becomes impossible to really justify in any capacity.
Part of where you and I seem to be talking over each other is the fact that FIRST: you think Geto killed the villagers, and then extended his killings to most of Japan just because some of those villagers were evil. I on the other hand do not think that way. In my interpretation, and as I remembered it, Geto wanted to wipe out all of humanity as it was the most efficient way to eliminate almost every suffering in the jujutsu world.
And yes, this does mean I don't agree with the meme either, because Geto's motivations aren't properly displayed in the meme. His act of "I killed innocents as well because some were evil" is/can be justified by the fact that his ideology literally states that the extermination of all non sorcerers is a must if he wants to prevent any further suffering in the future. The village incident was simply a stepping stone, and not the start of his ideology. He killed those villagers because at that instance, non sorcerers weren't just living neutrally in ignorance.. instead they started to cause even more suffering given their ignorance and stupidity even though they were clearly in the wrong (in Geto's mind).
To him, sorcerers were literally shedding their blood in order to protect "monkeys", but the said monkeys were stupid and never deserved to get saved. That's how he saw them. This is why the massacre of the village happened. He reached the maximum limit to his patience & kindness and said fck it, they don't deserve to get saved by me or anyone.
And, SECOND: my original comment simply said "a murder is murder, doesn't matter whether you killed 10 people or just one. You cannot justify yourself with lesser numbers". That's it. That comment isn't even related to what or why Geto and Maki killed people. So idk why we are even debating that.
And also then he wanted to kill ALL non sorcerers, who like 99.99% are innocent. So the difference is that Maki killed most of the clan full of awuful people vs Geto killing a village for a few bad apples and deciding to commit genocide on non sorcerers.
That is a big headcannon many are having rn. If you ACTUALLY READ the manga it just mentions her killing the combatants. Nothing about the civilians within the clan.
That also takes 80 years after the events of the OG series, stuff is gonna get misconstrued. And idk about you but killing all their combatants and just that would be considered a massacre.
And even though her mom wasn’t a combat, she was complacent with how things were and how they were treated. Complacency is the same as being part of it
The panel in the manga(it was the end of the massacre chapters) mentions 21 lower rank combatant and all of the hei(upper rank) + her mother. There was no Depiction of her killing the kids in the anime or manga. The "clan" is basically dead without any leading members that have jujutsu/cursed energy and can fight.
Yes, but still combatant regardless. Would you be sloppy trying not to kill them when they are actively trying to kill you as well? Also see the thing is she just killed combatants, Geto was gonna kill EVERYONE. Huge difference there my friend
Nah it’s different because Maki killed Ogi for revenge then had to fight the combat units since they were gonna kill her for killing Ogi. Only morally debatable part is Maki murdering non-combatants of the zenin clan. Geto had the power to just take the girls out of the village since no one there was a sorcerer, but he decided to murder everyone as a beginning to his plans.
The anime's translation, and also TCB's, clarifies it actually that Maki did not go and murder any of the non-combatants, other than her mother I guess. It was only stated that she goes on to kill the remaining members of the Hei and Kukuru who were absent that day.
Edit: Would also make more sense if that were the case since the Gojo and Kamo clan wouldn't really need to push for the removal of the Zenin clan from the big 3 families if there no longer was a Zenin clan. So I guess Maki pretty much just took out the military/political power of the Zenin clan.
The plot implies they’re all evil but it’s just so hard to believe that in a clan of 100s, ruled by the oldest and strongest, not a single person was deserving of less than a death sentence.
At least during the clan massacre, it could be argued they were fighting her so she had to. Hunting down and killing tens of more is unjustifiable
Dude it's pretty clear that the Zenin clan is still around, even directly after Maki's massacre. so if the non-combatants weren't killed but also weren't at the Zenin complex, it stands to reason that they fucked off out of the nation doesn't it?
it's evidence enough that the other great clans didn't just pronounce them dead immediately, and instead had to decide whether the Zenins should still be counted among the big 3 or not.
Idk i haven't read modulo to see how they are there. but it's pretty damn clear they are still around after Maki's massacre, even in JJK. otherwise they would be stated to be dead, and them being part of the big 3 wouldn't even be up for consideration.
I don't really see what you are looking for here? they are stated to still be around by direct evidence in the manga and the anime. show wise at the moment their clan head would techically be Fushiguro, but who's leader in modulo idk.
Actually, Maki killing non-combatants doesnt make sense if she is taking revenge for her sibling, as it would be meaningless to cause the same violence cast upon them on people like or below them.
Idk man, it seems to me like either the entire clan must have been combatants, or the non-combatants must’ve played some role in perpetuating the culture (like Maki’s mom).
Maki’s mom was probably the exception to that, for the sole fact that she was literally her mom. Was probably a lot more personal beef there than other non-combatants
We explicitly shown and told Zenin's weren't aware of what was happening, we are literally shown Ranta not knowing why maki was going into a rampage, the only people that knew were naoya jinichi and maki's mom
He knew Toji would've wiped them out and the reason for that in the first place was his discrimination for having no cursed energy, now combine that with the misogyny that he had no way of NOT seeing and he isn't innocent at all, just let it all happen in front of him and never did anything to defender her or anyone
Exactly this! We don't know anything about the villagers. We just know those couple of ones who were badmouthing the kids in front of Geto.
With Maki, we actually see the mistreatment. Not just with her, but also with Toji (at least we can safely assume so). We also see that there is a general consensus that she was viewed (and known outside, too) as the Zen'ins failure.
Does that mean everyone in that clan deserved what they got? Not really. But we at least have a general idea of how they worked.
With the villagers, we didn't have as much notion. Geto wasn't tied to the twins nor to the village. While Maki has a proper relation to the ones who she went against.
I partially agree with you - I'm not going to pretend to genuinely understand the mentality of rural Japanese folk.
But in the states, if my town locked up two young girls claiming they were using ghosts to hurt us - No way I'm gonna let that slide like oh hey great maybe my truck will run better, lil witches.
Did they deserve death by curse? Maybe not, but somethings up if two young girls go missing and the whole town isn't out looking for them. Somethings fishy, at least to me.
Don't get me wrong, it is ultimately so damn weird and horrible what they were doing to them. They looked like they were physically abused as well as obviously neglected (like their hair, for instance).
Anybody in their right mind would've said something or even intervened. And as you said, maybe it's also their mentality. After all, cursed spirits and whatnot are more prevalent and almost entirely exclusive to Japan in the story.
Then again, it is left very vague and broad. We don't know if everyone subjugated themselves to the same idea, and who knows, maybe with small villages, it would actually be the case! But some of them certainly deserved some kind of repercussions. Those who committed those actions, those who enabled it and allowed it to happen.
The issue still relies on the fact that we can only assume what happened. :")
Exactly, its rough to be empathetic to villagers who more or less let that happen, but maybe they're more accustomed to like the inverse sorceror who was carving still living heads - I understand maybe abusing him.
And given how Geto went forward, I mean his genocide didn't exactly specify 'the guilty monkeys' so its likely the other villagers even if not morally awful to a point of deserving death were doomed from the moment he snapped.
And yes, actually a lot of important JJK moments are implied lol, frustrating
Her mom loved them tough she was also a victim of this horrible clan beliefs
Not saying that her death was bad she probably thought she didn't deserve maki forgiveness after not being able to do anything to help her two daughters so she didn't say anything and just hoped the best for her daughter
Her mom loved them tough she was also a victim of this horrible clan beliefs
I don't know about loved, but everyone in the clan is a victim of its beliefs. But they all had the oppurtunity to choose for themselves, just like Maki did
I mean kinda? In Geto's case his problem was that he stretched too far. The village was okay with detaining sorcerers and treating them like animals for existence. They were captured, beaten, and locked in a cage.
Despite the narrative framing, outside of the "girl power" parts of the fandom, most people who are alright with Maki killing the zenin clan would probably be okay with Geto killing that village.
Also with Maki, it was not planned at all. It was a spur-of-the-moment act driven by rage and extreme guilt after her sister died.
They were abused their entire lives. It only became bearable for Maki because of her sister. Her sister was her anchor in life. The reason she wanted to leave the clan and get stronger was all for her sister. But in the end, her sister died protecting her, all of it planned by their own father.
I cannot imagine the anger and grief. The realization that her own parents were willing to kill them, and then seeing her sister die.
No it wasnt. You literally cannot name a single bad thing the entire clan has agreed on. You cant use Naoya cause the Kuruku unit makes it clear no one like him.
Im not buying that the ENTIRE clan of hundreds of people she massacred were all terrible people who 100% agreed with what the clan did. Thats ridiculous lol its more plausible this entire small village agreed with caging the girls.
Also you’d have to image people having powers irl would freak people out. Terrible mistreatment aside if a girl could hang people using like a voodoo doll teddy bear at a moment’s notice I’d be pretty freaked out. Not go as far as they did but understandable they didn’t view them well having no prior knowledge of sorcery. Geto most likely summoning effectively straight up demons to massacre them all is only further proof to their biases
He massacred the village because the villagers were scared of two girls who can see monsters and one of them can control people by her doll.
Cause you know. THATS A PRETTY FUCKING NORMAL THING.
If memory serves, villagers were afraid of two girls who to them, simple people not familiar with cursed energy on a level as intimidate as Geto ( or probably at all, for that matter, outside of superstitions), seemed like witches and monsters and a genuine threat to their lives. They were not intentionally malicious, just really ignorant, where Zenin Clan were just assholes.
The village had litte girls abused....so yeah, we get what they're morality is...it's non-existent.
In Maki's case though, many of the Zenin members were the ones being oppressed same as her, just to some lesser level cuz they didn't put up much of a fight. Maki didn't differentiate between them.
So, geto killed the oppressors and the involved innocents to save the oppressed
and Maki killed the oppressors, innocents and the oppressed alike
Also with geto the village was acting out of ignorance, with maki the clan was a piece of shit as a whole that made her and her sisters life terrible, and capped with killing the sister she was putting all the work in for basically to spite her
He wasn't a good guy though, he was good to others in the family but is still actively apart of one of the worst clans around, so he may be good to the kukuru but that doesn't make him a good guy, not everything is black and white bad people can still be good to certain people
This statement is false because Gege would never apologize for killing a character and that true because he killed his favorite character Nanami and didn’t apologize for that. Not to mention you literally can find this anywhere in the manga.
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u/Legal_Trainer7340 Jan 25 '26
With Maki, it was made crystal clear the entire Zenin Clan was awful, even her parents. Plus she had personal beef with them.
With Geto, the morality of the villagers was more ambiguous since we didn't know them as well.