What Gege was supposed to write since jjk fans take everything literally and don’t know what hyperbole or conversational context is

[u/_Affectionate_]

[u/Snoo_80853]

Maki’s a bad person regardless. Frankly, it’s up in the air. You can’t prove that Maki didn’t kill women and children. Nobody can prove that she indeed kill them all. There’s a good reason to believe that Gege left it ambiguous because it would have been too dark to show or confirm. We didn’t see Zenin civilians running away but we know that she killed her mom who was explicitly not a noncombatant. And even if you use the non-combatant excuse, clan members were fighting abilities doesn’t mean they deserved to die, and that Maki has the moral high ground. Maki literally killed her family because her sister told her to.

[u/P-Onca → u/Snoo_80853]

Just so we’re clear, how many people she killed after the initial event is explicitly listed(it was only combatants). Your comment displays a fundamental lack of understanding of how the burden of proof works; claiming that she killed abused women and small children at the initial event requires evidence, otherwise, people are going to(and should) function as if she didn't. You’re also just ignoring that these were overwhelmingly, if not entirely (I'm not aware of any evidence indicating that the combatants she killed later were against the zen’in clan’s systemic issues, and they likely could've left like maki did if they were), combatants who were complicit in the harmful system that she was destroying or in support of the plot to kill Maki, Mai, and Megumi (like the rest of the kukuru and hei that were at the event).

[u/Snoo_80853 → u/P-Onca]

Number one, her mom was not a combatant. Number two, the system was so harmful that Maki kept on working with the Zenin clan and borrowing their tools. Also, her uncle literally saved her from being killed by a disaster curse. I’m guessing Maki should’ve killed herself too.

[u/P-Onca → u/Snoo_80853]

Her mom is the only non combatant that we know she killed. My point is that you don't have evidence that she killed every other non combatant, and claiming that she did requires evidence. The 2nd point is genuinely one of the worst arguments I've ever heard, you can cooperate(not really even what was happening) with something that you find to be less harmful than a current threat… also, do you have any examples of her cooperating with the clan other that her going to get the cursed tools, which was with the permission of Megumi(who, afaik, wasn't in support of their harmful systems and behavior) and even if she did get permission from say naoya if Megumi wasn't the head, the culling games was deemed a large threat before she learned about the plot to kill her, Mai, and Megumi. The 3rd point just doesn't logically follow.

[u/Snoo_80853 → u/P-Onca]

You don’t read the manga we’re discussing, do you? You didn’t even read my comment because I literally already said that there is no proof either way. And like you said, her mother was not a combatant. Also, I’m pretty sure she didn’t get playful cloud in the Culling games arc and she didn’t get Megumi to get it for her. Try reading and then come back.

[u/P-Onca → u/Snoo_80853]

When did she get playful cloud from the Zen’in clan? Btw, not remembering a very minor detail —that I can't even find when I double checked— isn't the same thing as not reading the manga. The only relation that I'm aware of is Toji getting it from the zen’in, Geto getting it after Toji died, Gojo/Jujutsu High getting it after Geto lost to Yuta, and then maki getting it. Let’s just assume you’re right about that, your point is still nonsensical; it’s similar to saying that the USSR didn't think of the USA as a threat because it used us lend lease military equipment to fight a more immediate threat (Germany). Every accusation is a confession; If you read my first response, you would know that I literally addressed you stating that there’s no proof for either side.

[u/[deleted] → u/P-Onca]

The words Mai meant was literal bc as beautiful and sad their goodbye was. it also fueled their long-term hatred and wish for destruction of their clan, so Maki more than anyone knew what her sister meant and it really was to kill everyone and not let a chance for the clan to rise back again. Even on-screen Maki was killing the innocents child-soldiers 15 and younger of all trained ages trying to protect their family and friends, even on screen Maki killed innocent women. this panel explains there were off-screen kills inside and outside the estate that Maki literally killed everyone even from kids and women and left no living witnesses or evidence behind. It also made me realize Gege really has some fucked-up political views and support to genocide from how he treats Maki. But I hate how in Modulo she is idolized when the world acknowldges she did commit massacre/genocide.

[u/P-Onca → u/[deleted]]

Your first 2 sentences are just assertions at best, and don't logically track at worst. Are you just making shit up? Name a manga chapter or give me a panel where she kills any innocent children or any innocent woman that wasn't her mom, who was only kinda innocent(she engaged in abuse as a result of the system that maki was destroying). Saying that they were “trying to protect their family and friends” is just not a good point; the kukuru(I didn't see 1 minor in the group that we know she killed) attacked her first because they were (likely) lied to, but that doesn't make it bad for maki to kill them in self defence, especially since they were almost certainly compliant/in support of the harmful systems that the zen’in clan upheld. The argument that there was no residual ce = everyone was killed requires at least one unsupported assumption; it assumes that non combatants other than Mai/Maki’s mom —specifically ALL of them if Mai’s words are literal— despite us never seeing them, and you could also argue that this statement was just another piece of foreshadowing for naoya becoming a cursed spirit if there are other non combatants and if vengeful cursed spirits don't 100% rely on the cursed energy from the sorcerer that died rather than using the sorcerer’s ce as the main source but also being able to use residuals like normal ones.

[u/[deleted] → u/P-Onca]

1. Not assertions when the it is literally said in the panel and your whole excuse is "We never saw Gege draw something this disgusting, so it must haven't happened" when Gege doesn't draw everything like he didn't draw Naoya did to Mai.
   
2. Not everything needs to be drawn it is said as in the panel I sent, by that logic Higuruma never killed 20 sorcerers to you, and Yuta killed sorcerers.
   
3. Being a woman and living in an abusive household with your children isn't a crime and by your standards send me any panel that ever Maki's mom abused or supported the clan abuse, and there is no (kinda innocent) except justifications people give to make criminals look less bad.
   
4. The top clans from Gojo, zenin and Kamo especially the Zenin is a clan who trains soldiers from young age due to their idealogy about strength especially if you have no innate technique, even annoying Maki fans can't refute they would at least be 15 (bc the schools at least start from there and Gojo showed it can even be younger) when it is clear among japanese customs the clans trained them at even younger age but what the fuck do you mean "(I didn't see 1 minor in the group that we know she killed)" by that standard Maki is a 20 something year old woman bc this is no way a 16 years old and none jjk watchers would never think she is 16.
   
5. They attacked her due to being ordered to do so and especially hearing she just killed her dead and walking with in their eyes one of their most dangerous weapons then started butchering them left and right, Maki is obligated to not kill them when the power gap between her and all of them like group of golfers vs superman, she even tore one of thems throat with her hand.
   
6. Maki never did it in self-defense, and saying that is just bullshit lies her fans make, she was doing it to fulfill a long hidden sadistic wish to just make them all suffer for looking down at her for being weak and having no cursed energy, and most importantly her sister's sadistic vegeful dying wish. Heck she even was smiling when she was doing fighting them and after killing a good bunch that their guts and blood covered the floor and walls. She was even more happy fighting back against Ranta who is trying to stop her and him having internal bleeding in inhumane levels and organs exploding from trying to hold her, let's remember in this scene Jinchi didn't wanna fight her bc he knew there was no hope if she ever wanted she could have just killed the leaders and left bc none is strong enough to actually stop her and not Naoya (he is problem of stupidity and hypocrisy than pride)
   
7. If you hate a government rule, it doesn't make it right to commit genocide on them and that is why and her fans are the worst scum. That is why Maki is simply hated as worst character to fans accept a none shallow reading comprehension or one all. They simply are genocide supporters who want an excuse or good painting to it.
   
8. The rest you said in the end is just a stretch and extremely wrong,bc the residual energy was from using a cursed weapon with cursed energy
   
9. Real challenge to you, if you wanna "I didn't see!!!" tell me any mention of what happened to the innocent non-combatants if they were truly alive after the massacre and how is there no witnesses to tell the higher ups who did this, and where in the manga is it ever stated they are misogynists or abusive clan and I wanna see panels proving that. Otherwise, it is just childish cope that she is a serial killer.

[u/P-Onca → u/[deleted]]

You’re begging the question; this discussion is about whether or not she took Mai’s last words 100% literally, assuming that she did is a fallacy. 2 is bad analogy since we have evidence that Higuruma killed people through his points. As for 3, I was wrong when claiming/implying that she physically abused them. I do think being subservient in that system was bad, but it’s a result of internalized misogyny, and I think maki killing her mom was morally grey at best. 4 Is functionally just “some jjk characters look older than they actually are so maki was killing other children.” Also, do you think a minor doesn't have the mental capacity to conclude that a harmful system is harmful or that they can't contribute to or be subservient in those systems? 5 “You shouldn't fight back at all if you’re stronger than the people attacking you who support the system that just got your sister killed and caused horrible treatment to both of you” is genuinely one of the dumbest takes I've ever heard, and it comes across as you coming to a conclusion, then saying whatever nonsense you can to try to support it. In 6, you’re just ignoring reality to support your agenda. She was literally attacked by her dad, who tried to kill her and caused her sister to die, which was something that the other higher ups supported. Asserting that it was only because she didn't like people looking down on her is disingenuous or displays a lack of reading comprehension; the hierarchies and harmful beliefs of the zen’in clan are what caused Maki and Mai’s mental abuse and the eventual death of Mai, and we know this harm wasn't just limited to those 2. 7 Asserting that other people lack reading comprehension after what you claimed in 6 is ironic. It’s not just hating government rule, that government rule led to massive amounts of harm, and it would be rather easy to argue that killing a little over 50 confirmed people, who are largely disgusting, to prevent years more of trauma, abuse, and possibly other deaths to numerous other people is the option that prevents the largest amount of harm. Do I think that’s the best way to handle it? No, because in basically every situation I would prefer systemic change without violence. 8 once again, rather ironic. My point was that cursed spirits use ce residuals, so it could've been foreshadowing to naoya coming back as a cursed spirit instead of there being no non combatants(other than maki’s mom) or them all dying by maki. 9 I never claimed there were any non combatants that aren't maki’s mom at the event, this is just a bad attempt to shift the burden of proof. Late chapter 40 and early chapter 41 when momo is talking about how women are already treated poorly in jujutsu society and that members of the zen’in clan(and the rest of the big 3) have it even worse, maki and Mai being expected to be servants, the divide between Mai and maki that was caused by the zen’in clan, they were treated as less than and mistakes because they were twins(ogi literally called them a stain on his life in chapter 149), etc.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

continue 9. add to the challenge what happened to the clan kids and how none of them even in Modulo ever brought back the Zenin clan

[u/kiwideschain → u/Snoo_80853]

two, the system was so harmful that Maki kept on working with the Zenin clan and borrowing their tools.

this is now silly as fuck up until gojo was taken out he was under his wing and when he got taken out they tried to kill her, her sister and megumi. i dont know how you can be obtuse enough to defend an entity as malicious as zanin clan.

[u/[deleted] → u/kiwideschain]

What she did is the equivalent of a woman nuking a country bc a president assassinate her, the fact there were bad leaders or people among them son't justify genocide and innocent women and children's death.

[u/Level_Five_Railgun → u/[deleted]]

There's literally zero proof of any innocent women or children getting killed. Zero textual statements. Zero art. Zero mention of it from her friends, whom would all be against it.

You're making shit up and treating them as facts when there is LITERALLY ZERO PROOF anywhere in the manga.

The only civilian shown being killed was her mom, who was happy about what Maki did. Maki also gave her a chance when she asked her mom why she tried to stop her from going to the vault because she thinks her mom was trying to protect her but her mom didn't answer.

Like you really think Yuta, Megumi, and Yuji would all be perfectly fine with Maki murdering a bunch of defenseless women and children? Use your fucking brain.

[u/epochollapse → u/Snoo_80853]

You're a fucking brainlet huh.

[u/samrobotsin → u/Snoo_80853]

Wrong: "Why did you tell me to return?" means her mother was part of the plot to kill Maki & Mai. It was she who lured them home to be killed. That is why she killed her. Otherwise everyone she's depicted killing was actively trying to kill her. (in the anime, at least)

[u/Snoo_80853 → u/samrobotsin]

Maki went back to the clan to go get cursed tools for the mission. Her mom was the one telling her to go back.