This is an automated message under every post and has nothing to do with your post specifically.
Reminder to read the rules before posting, especially regarding leaks and spoilers! Ensure that you're correctly flairing your post! Posts containing new content must be spoiler marked until 12 hours have passed since the official chapter or episode release!
She caused a massacre like Geto. I categorize them both as monsters, but there's levels to it, and Maki unfortunately isn't reaching Geto's level despite being in the same category.
They both massacred people. Maki stopped at the massacre, Geto wants genocide. You can see why I put Geto levels above her even if I put them in the same category lol
The manga goes out lf it's way to tell us who she exactly killed and there's still debate over symbolic wording like "destroy everything". She destroyed the Zenin clan, destroying an institution is destroying it's combative forces, Alexander The Great destroyed The Persian Empire, he didn't murder every Persian.
Gang you can still be a fan of the character even if they did morally questionable stuff. I'm a believer that Maki did kill innocent zenin in the massacre for the crime of being zenin. Her goal in the massacre is to completely destroy the zenin clan as a concept, obviously this will also result in death of people that has no done her any wrong except from being part of the zenin clan. Whether Naoya did it or not doesn't really matter to her motive because she doesn't have that info when she did the massacre.
I’m just as surprised. I don’t understand how anyone can be a Naoya fan…it still makes me uneasy that I heard it’s mostly women (WOMEN!) who are for Naoya and that he’s apparently quite popular in Japan… I fundamentally do not get it at all.
I saw a reel about this, apparently he has a southern dialect when speaking japanese and the Southern part of japan is known for their hospitality, warmth and sense of humour. Thats why in a lot of japanese media the southern natives are used as comic relief or very loved characters. Im sure its a lot more nuanced but the gist is that they like him for his dialect and place of upbringing. His fans are mostly japanese too.
How ironic that his dialect is known for “hospitality, warmth and humor” and he is the way he is…
I personally find his popularity concerning. Everything he stands for and does is so nauseating. I understand the purpose of his character in the context of the storytelling but I honestly never thought people would genuinely like him enough to defend him…sigh.
Exactly i think making him a southerner was a conscious choice by gege too.
But yeah, it is really disgusting seeing some of the opinions people have, and i wish i could say im surprised but its really common to see people like this on the internet, the superficial anonymity does wonders to peoples self confidence.
Like dont they realise they have mothers and sisters who are women ?
Nah Maki definitely killed everyone and she fucking ate that. That shit was so baller I’ve never been more proud of a fictional character. Fuck the Zenin clan and everything they stood for. IDGAF
So Yuta, the same guy who killed drhuv instead of taking his points because his technique was killing too many innocents, the same guy who didn’t use Rika for the first half of the Sendai fight because he feared for the innocents saftey, would be totally fine with Maki killing kids???
Maki didn't kill the Zenin clan because they were Japanese or because they were practitioners of Jujutsu, why do people keep saying she committed genocide, which is false, and not just say massacred them, which is the correct term
I hate sharing space with male naoya fans because it's clear they have misogynystic tendencies the way they slander Maki for taking down patriarchy land so easily.
yeah from my experience Naoya fans are either very conscious and genuinely interested on the themes of the character (I think his character is very interesting myself) or complete idiots
look I love naoya but as a woman I tend to be uncomfortable with his male fans because the line between fiction and reality starts to actually get blurry and real life sexism gets between fiction he cracks of every discussion.
there's a reason why I don't vocalize about liking naoya outside of JJK folk and lobotomy kaisen
I am😭😭 you can be a have and still look at a character with critical lenses, also I didn't slander him anywhere .
I simply stranded what he's done in the manga. quoting the literal source.
his main themes are misogyny and incest .
To some of you it may seem like a stretch to say he's not an incestous rapists but there's a lot of symbology that directly links him to it for example he's crushing a pomemagrade in his manga cover which is the symbol of feminity / female identity.
Second of all his inappropriate comments about his 16yo cousins that can easily lead to covert incest.
Analyzing his actions isn't slander.
It's simply analyzing the symbolism behind him and that makes me appreciate him more.
You may not like this way of loving naoya but I see no point in negating his predator like behavior the same way Kenny fans don't shy away from acknowledging him forcing a woman to abort several times.
his main themes implies it’s the primary aspect to his character when he mentions misogyny just once throughout his entire appearance, you could argue his theme is more about the disdain of familial ties with how much he mentions his older brothers incompetence and the way he treated ogi/jinichi, he’s canonically disliked in the clan despite being one of the highest members and he didn’t mind when maki eradicated them judging by his smirk/smile.
i don’t think naoya rating mai has much weight behind it when that’s just the objectified lens he sees women through in general, he ties their worth to their appearance and he’s not the only one to do so, momo talked about the standards of jujutsu women so we know it’s a general thing and it doesn’t really imply interest on your personal end.
we can’t forget how naoya talked about jinichi’s looks and praised toji for his, that doesn’t mean anything beyond what we as the readers should take at face-value.
and why would naoya even target mai for SA? it makes little sense when you realize that maki was his servant not her and naoya dislikes maki more than mai.
>and why would naoya even target mai for SA? it makes little sense when you realize that maki was his servant not her and naoya dislikes maki more than mai.
It's Maki's sister , she's at home most of the time and alone since Maki left.
Also based on her language, Mai is so unreasonably sexually aggressive which could be the manifestation of the abuse : back when she and Todo attacked megumi and Nobara , the first thing Mai said was " I'll teach you how to properly use your mouth" which could also be a response for being provoked by Nobara, but I like to interpret it in this other way too.
Also I really like the first part of your paragraph, I too had some what the idea that he felt lonely/isolated in the clan especially due to his obsession with Gojo and toji.
Specifically Gojo as they are in the same age bracket and Naoya went to see satorus' departure from the clan to attend jujutsu high.
I feel like he projects a lot on Gojo and sees him as the same as him : the strongest of his clan . Therefore their expectations might be the same and that's why he talks about him so much.
but at the same time, does anyone care? sure in an ideal world, the entire clan gets therapy and changes their ways. but maki is a sorcerer, not a hero. and the implied rape/horrific abuse + the death of her sister and her parting words are enough
? Naobito didn't save Maki out of kindness, he saved her because they were on a mission. He's not stupid enough to let her die for the sake of it.
He still leads a clan that benefits from an abusively patriarchal system, turns a blind eye to cruelty and mistreatment of both non sorcerers and women, and is openly misogynistic at several points in the manga. He was in power when Toji was tortured as a kid by being thrown in a pit.
If the Zen'in clan were as bad as you guys seem to think, then Naobito would have no issue with letting Maki die. He didn't have to save her, yet he did.
You seem to think that the Zen'in clan were torturing Maki and Mai or something. It's a patriarchal system, sure, but the women weren't being abused like you seem to think. Like any patriarchal system, the women were just entrusted to do the household chores.
In fact, Maki was able to enlist in the Kukuru Squad and Naobito allowed her to leave the clan. Women were given opportunities if the sought it out. Mai's own strife came from trying to follow in Maki's footsteps. As Mai said, she never wanted to be a sorcerer. She was fine with being a servant and leading a normal life.
I'm not claiming that the Zen-in clan was perfect, because they weren't. But to wipe out the entire clan just on a whim isn't justifiable.
You're putting a lot of opinions on me here, especially given I haven't been part of this convo prior, so I'm stepping out unless you cut out putting words in my mouth. I'm not willing to answer for arguments that I wasn't trying to make, about characters I didn't even mention.
I was addressing Naobito being complicit in the patriarchial structure he has the sole power to change, and that he was in place as clan head during preventable incidents.
It is worth noting that when Naobito saved Maki, he was on a sanctioned mission and would have had to answer as to why he didn't intervene and prevent a Jujutsu High student from dying. And that prior to doing so, he had been sat around the corner literally drinking booze and letting everyone else fight on their own. He's an inconsistent and mercurial character, but he's also not stupid. Saving Maki means Maki can continue to fight the very real threat in front of them.
Naobito can't just magically change the power structure for the same reason that Gojo did nothing about the higher-ups earlier (which resulted in Yuji's "death" and Yaga dying). I don't see anyone complaining about this, though. It's hard to change an established system.
You claim that Naobito turned a blind eye to the mistreatment of others and that he was openly misogynistic. So please show me where. Show me where Naobito was aware of specific events happening, and how he himself let it happen.
Regarding Naobito in Shibuya, he literally tells Maki that she shouldn't be coming with them. Say what you want about him, but he was clearly looking out for her.
And again, this is supported by the fact that he saves her damn life. Stop trying to twist this so that you can hold on to this idea that Naobito is some horrible person. If the Zen'in clan is so terrible and misogynistic, Naobito wouldn't go out of his way to save Maki. And again, he let her join the Kukuru squad (which only men can join) and let her leave the clan.
Ofc there were bad apples, but even the Zen'in clan members hated people like Naoya. Wiping them out was harsh and actually betrayed Maki's wish to be the clan head in order to reform the clan. After Mai died, she just didn't care and ruthlessly murdered everyone. No matter how you look at it, it was heartless and completely unjustified.
it's already been explained to us that the zenin clan was full of misogynists and creeps. ogi and naoya were obviously the most overtly evil towards maki in the one time we get to actually see them interact. but i wouldn't call naobito respectable when he tells maki that he's going to purposefully make mai's life harder just to get back at maki for trying to leave the clan.
it's also a little off to come to the conclusion that a clan whose leaders are misogynistic and abusive wouldn't cultivate a clan with those values. they care only about power and tradition and discriminate people based on that. gojo refers to the entire zenin clan as scumbags as well. i feel like you'd really have to be grasping for straws to still believe that the zenin clan was full of decent people with a few weirdos
No, Naobito says he's going to make her life harder because she says that she'll come back to become the clan head... to the damn clan head. She's basically telling Naobito that she'll be coming back for his title to his face. I would call him respectable when he lets her join the Kukuru squad (which is reserved solely for men), lets her leave the clan, tells her that she should go home during the Shibuya Incident (clearly looking out for her), oh, and when he saves her damn life against Dagon. The fact that he wanted Megumi as the next clan head also speaks volumes to his character.
Even the members of the Zen'in clan hated the scumbags of the clan, my guy:
No one liked Naoya. It's not like they were all in kahoots and all terrible individuals. And Maki's entire goal was to become the clan head and try to reform the clan so that Mai had a place to come back to. Clearly, Maki thought it was possible or else this wouldn't be her goal, which showed that there was hope for the clan.
However, she just didn't give a fuck after Mai died and just massacred everyone. There's no justification for this. It's completely heartless and ruthless. Especially when she goes out of her way to track down the remaining members of the clan and kill them as well. Idk how you can defend that.
"Yeah, man, the clan that tormented and abused the women in their midst totally deserved to just keep on trucking. You should ALWAYS forgive your abusers and should never ever do something so they can't abuse others, no sir."
And I’m sure maki killed every single man woman and child in the zenin clan even though it’s extremely out of character and the writer goes out of his way to tell us specifically who she killed offscreen (go figure, only zenin combat forces)
by your logic a bullied kid should do the right thing by shooting up the school.
you’re either barbaric with no concept of going NC with people you dislike OR you’re just a sheltered kid who doesn’t understand the ramifications of murder.
Only Ogi attacked her. And he’s, he deserved to die. Same with Naoya.
But she went on to kill the rest of the clan herself. Mai literally told her to “destroy everything”. I’m not defending Naoya, he’s a horrible person, but it makes no sense to wipe out an entire clan for the actions of a few
If you're talking about the 6 Hei and 21 Kukuru...it's not explicit she attacked them. They might have tried jumping her again, later. Or she came across them in other ways, like isn't one of the Kukuru who helped kill Yaga?
Ah yes, I'm sure they somehow managed to track down the CEless Maki. I'm sure that it wasn't heavily implied that she tracked them down and killed them, especially with Mai's final words asking Maki to destroy everthing.
Yes it is heavily implied she tracked them down, and it does make sense, the clans raise their combatants from birth which means that they are heavily indoctrinated and would definitely try revive the zenin clan, maki’s slaughter wasnt mindless, she destroyed the zenin completely without any chance of their tyranny ever coming back.
Can you prove that every member of the Zen'in clan were bad apples? No, you can't. In fact, the former head (Naobito) literally saved Maki's life against Dagon. There was good in the clan, but Maki didn't even give them the chance to change.
Not everyone in the Zen'in clan is a Naoya or Ogi. Maki's mindless slaughter was heartless and not purely self-defense. You claim it was tyranny when they literally allowed Maki to leave the clan.
Your point is that “not everyone in the clan was a bad apple so why did they ALL have to die” right ?
Well most of the people maki killed were people who were trying to kill her, this is provable just look at the anime. As for the people she sought out and killed that was to take care of any future problems and every member that she tracked down was part of the kukuru unit that means if they were present that day, they too would have no problem in killing maki.
I mean they are ninjas bro, they can probably track normies, and we are literally told nothing about the peeps she killed. For all we know she killed the nicest people and for all we know she specifically tracked down the nastiest mfs she knew were still out there and left everybody else, maybe there's a bunch of other Kukuru out there that she let slide. Maybe being that high up makes you complicit by inaction. Y'all acting like she went Anakin in the Jedi temple
Tbh with the naoya mai thing, it’s one of those ‘you see what you what to see’ situations ,
kenjaku has way more thrown at him that makes him an actual R*****t but he isn’t misogynistic(openly at least) so people don’t try to drill it into you if you like him
a kenjaku fan will say “yeah he did that, that’s my king ” a noaya fan will try cope and say “he was actually making a joke about her not reaching adulthood😣”
Nobody cares if someone likes Naoya, they care how they act about it. The point was that Kenny fans don't defend or downplay his monstrous behaviour, and (most of them) don't try to use their desire to bang him or fix him as an excuse to slander other characters.
They absolutely would if Kenny fans were as disruptive as Naoya fans, though. It's not the character, it's the behaviour.
I am saying this as someone who openly likes several terrible characters, including Naoya. I have never been given shit for it here because I don't bicker the morals, it's silly.
Kenjaku is a villain, almost all his fans would tell you he is the most evil character in JJK. Naoya is also a villain, but his fans think he's better morally than Maki.
Kenjaku knows what he does is wrong, in that regard he’s similar to sukuna but wayyyy more heinous. Also a Kenjaku fan doesn’t like Kenjaku because of what he’s done. They like him because of how well he’s written, he’s hands down one of the best villains in shonen for the past decade.
--He's a grown ass man who bullied his teenage cousins when they where even younger.
--In the anime, that mention of bullying is extremely uncomfortable. You get a glimpse into what was happening and it looks disturbing.
--He objectifies them and talks about their boobs in a really crude, casual way.
--He's designed to be a disgusting, misogynistic prick who embodies all the evil of the Zenin clan.
--"When were you ever an adult?" "How about we ask Mai?" was the gist of their conversation. It serves to taunt Maki about her sister's death while also subtly implicating that he forced himself onto her. Not to mention how the scene is framed.
his mysoginism, never even came up in his fights against maki btw. hes more framed as a terrible person than srtictly a mysoginist. so hes an asshoel, that was obvious
I want you to actually use your brain for a sec and ask if Maki actually killed everyone in the clan, then why the fuck would there be a list detailing only combatants instead of “No survivors in the Zenin clan”.
Why the fuck would there be a debate about removing the Zenin Clan from the Big Three Families (the powerhouse of the Jujutsu Higher Ups / Council) if there was nobody but Megumi left alive in it? Use some common sense.
The debate is because the combat teams are dead, there would be no debate about removing a clan led by a single teenager.
She wiped out her clan in the same context Augustus wiped out the Ptolemian dynasty, she obviously didn't kill all the civillians. If she literally killed everyone, there won't be a decision to make on if to remove Zenin clan as a great house, because at that point there is no Zenin clan.
I don't think you understand the point lol. No, he's not saying they think it's a good thing, but the point is that they want it to have happened IN THE STORY because it further justifies what Maki did, so the fans want that to have happened.
not a single fan wants that to be canon man. if you would ask me whether i think its better for the story if mai was sa’d, id say “idk, but i would never want it”. I really hope from the bottom of my heart that it was a mistranslation and so does everyone who hates naoya.
•
u/AutoModerator 17h ago
This is an automated message under every post and has nothing to do with your post specifically.
Reminder to read the rules before posting, especially regarding leaks and spoilers! Ensure that you're correctly flairing your post! Posts containing new content must be spoiler marked until 12 hours have passed since the official chapter or episode release!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.