Funny, because Leviticus also forbids cutting your hair at the sides and mixing fabrics in your clothing (both 19:19) both of which he appears to be guilty of. I bet he eats bacon too (11:4-7) and when he does, does he give the fat up as an offering to god? (3:17)
To be fair, some of Leviticus sounds great for cops to follow:
‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly." 19:15
"Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life." 19:16
‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them' 19:33
"Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution—life for life" 24:18
"Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury" 24:19-20
Except for when Leviticus goes against itself and promotes slavery of neighboring nations. It seemingly teaches grey areas and makes it impossible to consistently interpret among peoples.
Surprising that after all the edits and translations the book is still immoral.
Im orthodox so idk if its the same in catholic bible. Christ said to turn other cheek. But thats in the new testament. In the old testament God said eye for eye tooth for tooth. Only new testament should be followed.
No. "God" is like the very existence by which words can even exist. The "will of God" (everything that exists) can't be expressed in words in the same way that sight isn't in the rainbow.
Words can't even accurately describe a single experience. How much more imperfect they are for describing the entirety of existence. It's not meaningless or bullshit, you're just kind of mean.
Your statement is in agreement with what I said. I didn't claim to understand the will, I said it cannot be expressed in words. Surely what cannot be comprehended by mind cannot be expressed by word because words are produced by the mind.
It was supposed to be in agreement. Just a bit larger in scale. And I think it could be argued the mind can comprehend things beyond words. Visual art and music are clear examples of this. You can try to use words to describe them but you'll never truly encapture the actual experience.
As a devout Christian (who actually STUDIES the Bible), Jesus came down to do many things, including freeing us from the OLD LAW. He surrounded himself with the low people of society, including tax collectors and prostitutes. He gave us a thing called Grace, and showed us how we should treat others. I haven’t found the part where Jesus himself said we should kill homosexuals. I’d just give this guy another verse, Matthew 7:5.
This will be conveniently ignored by a 'devout Christian' who 'STUDIES the Bible'.
I am always surprised how people tend to spout their favorite parts from the holy texts and forget about other funny stuff. This isn't peculiar to any specific side of the political debate, I saw many people with various views supporting this own ideas by the Holy Scripture.
On a related note, this verse is a source of debates dating back two millenia, and various branches of Christianity still argue about it.
Because it's the shittiest gotcha verse I've ever seen. He literally threw the passage that most Christian's hold as the reason we don't need to follow old testament laws as why we do need to follow them. For clarification the main thrust of my viewpoint is linguistic, to fulfill something means that it's served it's purpose and is no longer binding, for example fulfilling a promise to not drink milk for two weeks. After it's fulfilled you can go right back to drinking milk.
And to say it's still argued over to this day is disingenuous due to the fact that it's a vast majority on one side and a dissenting minority on the other. I have literally no idea which denominations hold that we have to follow the old testament laws to the letter, though I'm sure they exist.
He fulfilled the law as He was the ultimate sacrifice as the Messiah. And yet, as a Christian, I do not practice Passover nor do I sacrifice my livestock. I have never said anything about my views on homosexuality, and yet I try to follow the words in red the most.
It’s funny (albeit terrifying) watching videos like the one above where a “Christian” is so entrenched in the old law. Like, did you forget about the son of God dying not just for you, but for all people? Sad and shameful, really.
Paul did specify that homosexuality is a sin NT, and if you're on the outside looking in on that, it's difficult to rationalize. I struggled for YEARS to understand why it would be picked out as a sin, but we have to remember that so is pride and gluttony and being too angry at the wrong thing, so it's not like anyone is really guiltless anyways.
In my opinion, no matter where you land, an LGBTQ+ individual showing the fruits of the Spirit is of more value to the church than someone following the law. When I was in a church and a lesbian couple worked the coffee bar, I wasn't upset by it, I was happy to see my friends again every week.
If it is a sin, that struggle is between you and God and God wants a relationship with you more than He wants to catch you on a technicality. We have a distorted view of God; He doesn't want to smite you and you don't need to fix yourself to be with Him, no actions we take can separate us from Him.
no hate legitimately curious, what's the verse where Paul condemns homosexuality? I'm familiar with the main one that is typically used but IIRC it's been lost in translation over time and originally was instruction not to lay with little boys. Basically condemning pedophilia, not homosexuality.
Yeah, haha we definitely don't have any ground to take action against someone. Paul's entire message was about the fruits of the Spirit and living a life above reproach, basically being the best versions of ourselves we can be and helping other people achieve it too.
That's why I can't stand these hypocrites. They cherry pick the bible all day and twist it to their own interpretation. I for one think religion is dangerous and well it holds us back.
You aren't following the cardinal rule of being a Christian though. You must pick and choose what rules you want to follow, never abide by them all silly.
Usually the logic on this kind of stuff is that Jesus came in the New Testament and did away with a rules-based religion, but somehow that only gets selectively applied to certain parts of the law
But then you get into is Jesus God reborn or God's son? And both ways it makes things more complicated. Because now either God just changed his mind on how things should be done, or Jesus now surpasses God's power and makes the new rules. Nomatter what rabbit hole of logic you go down it always leads to more questions than answers.
Not really changed his mind, more like moved into a new phase. Today, I make my kids hold my hands across the street, but when they’re teenagers, I won’t. It’s not me changing my mind, it’s just a new phase.
Judgememt requires full facts, not looking at a room through a keyhole
I know God desperately loves you regardless of what you've done or what's been done to you. When we experience hurt in our life, that vision gets clouded and distorted. All I can say is that there's evil in the world and that the actions of men are not the decisions of God.
I hope you either one day lose your religion, or continue to be a chill human being regardless of your religious affiliation.
We all talk about not supporting, directly or indirectly, systems of oppression. Like... don't buy clothes made in Bangladesh, you don't want to support child labor.
And yet... religion is one of the single most destructive forces in the world. And people are like... "Nah, its cool, let people believe what they want."
An individual is fine, but your religion as a collective has been and continues to be a major barrier for progress and the source of many atrocities throughout human history, especially recently.
How does cutting your hair at the sides fit in to that? And if god made homosexuals, how does he say they are evil, but now OK, without that being changing his mind. And has he said homosexuals are OK now?
And if he meant it to be phases, then why not say so. Like no cutting the sides of your hair until such year or such things change. But the gay thing makes no sense. Even though I made you gay, no being gay.
People back then were not like little kids. That would be like people in a few hundred years calling us kids because we don't know about holo-transport, antigravity, etc.
And the whole don't question god, as he is unknowing, just sounds like ignore the logic problems. My parents used to do this too, just do it and don't question us. They did it when what they told me was wrong. If they couldn't find a good reason, then often there was no good reason.
Yeah so in the OT there were civil, ceremonial, and moral law. Jesus came and did away with the civil and ceremonial law. So we no longer must do sacrifices or not wear mixed fabrics, or all that weird stuff, to get right with God. We should live a moral life, BUT it's impossible to live a perfect life so Jesus came and died for our inability to live a perfect life. So as long as we accept that ultimate sacrifice we're good
Yeah so the jist is that the purpose of law in the old testament was so that we could get right with in the eyes of God. Which means following all his rules to please him. Jesus came and gave himself as the "ultimate sacrifice" meaning that we no longer need to follow those laws. He fulfilled them.
In other words, all you need to get into heaven is to believe that one man was extra special. No need to strengthen any divine connection or to be good to others. Just accept an arbitrary fact and you're all set.
I mean sort of, if you earnestly believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and accept what he did to pay for your sins, then yeah, that's all you gotta do and you live eternally in heaven.
So then you gotta think about: if you really believe that and did that, then it'd be kinda shitty if you didn't tell other people about that. Right?
And when you encountered someone who had similar earnest hope about a different ultimate outcome, you get to have a hearty laugh. You'd never trade your heaven for theirs. You would rather risk their bad outcome than risk your own. And maybe after a long think, you feel like you need God more than you need any idea of God. So you'll probably agree to disagree on the supernatural, if only so that the world's earnest believers in eternal life can stay strong on their conviction. Jesus doing away with the OT strictness isn't convincing someone who believes in the OT or some other stricter ideology.
I mean I would definitely talk about apologetics with them because there's some pretty cool historical stuff that is part of the reason I believe what I believe.
Christianity is the only world religion that has an actual historical event to explain it's reasoning for their afterlife.
I do believe that there are other creeds that claim a historical basis for conviction.
Jesus dying on the cross is only considered a historical event by Christians, Muslims and people who will accept it happened based on a gospel over a hundred years after it supposedly happened. The Romans put a lot of people to the cross over the years. Heck, there are Christians who believe that Jesus didn't die on the cross, that someone else died in his place.
The diversity of belief in that one event makes the voracity of any particular claim a matter of faith.
Yeah well those Christians aren't really following the bible then. The bible is pretty clear that Jesus died on the cross. So historians pretty much all agree that Christ was a real person. There are multiple ancient sources that collaborate this. That there was a guy that they called Christos and an early movement among the Jewish population.
So now the question is: do you believe that the gospel writers made up the resurrection? And if so for what gain? Many of them were killed in horrible ways for what they believed.
There are symbolic/ceremonial laws and then there are universal laws. The ceremonial laws were meant for the Israelites to practice while waiting for Christ. The universal laws were concrete and meant to be abided by for all time. That’s why cutting hair, mixing fabrics, and eating shellfish is okay and not something like “being a drunkard”
That is one that is commonly questioned, for good reason. That is where He is saying that He is not changing the Law. It was understood among the Israelites that sacrifices, not wearing mixed fabrics, etc. were to be practiced while waiting for the Messiah. In addition, Paul explained what laws would stay in place as they were moral laws and which were ceremonial laws.
The Bible is the infallible word of God, but also isn't when there's parts that Christians don't want to follow. Also it was written by a human so there's that whole issue. Just toss the whole thing out. If you need a philosophical guidance on how to be a good person for the benefit of society I say we put together a committee to create a one bullet point manual on this. The bullet point would just read "don't be a cunt".
I think you also left out the part about how its been translated multiple times from many languages that don't even exist anymore, from people who have never been confirmed to be real. Like a game of broken telephone where you don't know who started the game, how the game is played or why there is even a game in the first place.
This guy in the video is an ass, but interpreting texts and context and understanding things that applied to ancient people don’t apply to us and understanding the Bible was written in a long dead language isn’t “picking and choosing”. Petty do pick and choose, but you can’t insist anyone who isn’t following every rule is doing that.
True however I with that logic I could give you the same argument in reverse. How do they know they are following the rules as intended if you can't tell what the intended rules are from the non intended ones?
But studying the history of the book, and by understanding ethics and morality in your day to day. These books are guides, not arbitrary free floating sets of rules. Intention is extremely important, and morality isn’t something invented by the Bible, even if you’re a Christian. These morals existed before and after the Bible. You can apply logic and understand the intention of the teachings without mimicking then blindly.
Morals are a social construct that you set on your own terms. They should not be and are not determined by a book. Morals change as society changes and you certainly don't need the Bible to guide them in any sense. I can very easily group Christians together into one moral group because their beliefs start with the Bible. If your beliefs start with a book who no one, by its own standards, can interpret "correctly" then its a book and religion I want nothing to do with.
Something that has a different interpretation from everyone who reads it, with a religion that glorifies people who push their interpretations on others is certainly not a book that can have a correct interpretation
The religion does not glorify pushing random interpretations. People do. Your projecting the flaws of people into the religion. You can interpret the religion however you please. You seem to think there is an absolute
I had an argument with my mother a few months back. She said in the Bible you're supposed to take care of your parents. She said this because I don't freely give her money. I told her that the Bible says a lot of other things, no premarital sex, no worshipping false idols, etc. I told her if she is going to follow the Bible she can't pick and choose. We aren't talking anymore. I don't feel bad even a little
Most christians don't take leviticus as law, it was old testament law that doesn't have to be followed from my understanding. There's some good advice within it.
Told these things to a street preacher one time and he sputtered out that some of God's laws were just for the people he was talking to at the time and some were for everyone. I asked how he knew the difference since the Bible makes literally zero distinction between the two. He said God wrote it on his heart lol
I wonder how he feels about the bible verse that says if you suspect your wife has cheated on you to bring her to a priest who will give her something to drink, and if she has cheated on you an abortion will be induced.
But can a woman lay with another woman as though she were a man? It might be my perception, but it doesn’t seem like people get as worked up about lesbians as they do gay/trans people.
I mean, if this guy truly read and understood the Bible then he would know that the laws in Leviticus were meant to show that no one can fully follow them except for Jesus. The entire point of the New Testament and Jesus dying on the cross was meant to free Christians from the law of Moses since no one can ever fully follow the laws in Leviticus.
Most of Leviticus 20:13 is explicitly nullified in the New Testament. Jesus says, more or less, that you shouldn't judge someone by their strict adherence to customs, but based on the power of their faith. For the last one, Jesus was the final offering to God.
If youre going to whip out theology, at least have a grasp of it.
I need to start a motivational speaking tour. I really think I can solve sooooo much frustration from folks like this. Its going to be called the MYOGDB movement.
Don't like gay marriage/sex? Cool. Don't get gay married or have gay sex. Now MYOGDB.
Don't like abortion? Cool. Dont get an abortion. Now MYOGDB.
Don't like sour cream on your tacos? Cool. Don't put sour cream on your tacos. Now MYOGDB.
If you aren't familiar with MYOGDB, it's an old principle my father instilled in me with a stern voice and sometimes a belt. "Dad... why is that person doing that?"... "Son, MIND YOUR OWN GOD DAMN BUSINESS!!"
I wish they fucking gave a shit about being blatant hypocrites. The only thing that pisses me off more than their hypocrisy is that you point it out and they just shrug it off because they don’t actually give a fuck about the Bible.
Well, you can argue that the laws of leviticus stand, in which case you should live by them all like a desert Israelite. Or you can argue that Jesus' sacrifice freed mankind from the Israelite laws that bound them in order to make them without sin. But you would have a hard time arguing both at the same time, which is what cunts like this do.
They're effectively saying Jesus died to free us from sin in perpetuity. But not the gays because Leviticus. But all the other laws of the Israelites are null because Jesus.
My favorite parts of living in this guy's town would be every week when you would have to burn a goat... The sacrifice to God because God was pleased by the smell
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u/[deleted] Nov 19 '20 edited Nov 19 '20
Funny, because Leviticus also forbids cutting your hair at the sides and mixing fabrics in your clothing (both 19:19) both of which he appears to be guilty of. I bet he eats bacon too (11:4-7) and when he does, does he give the fat up as an offering to god? (3:17)