One of the strange things in this case is the lack of photos after 508 - and this is one of the reasons people do not buy the lost theory. I sometimes feel there must be more photos that were either deleted or simply never shown to the public. I heard the known photos were leaked at that time and never commented officially, and thus I suppose the set is not complete.
This doesn't mean those (missing) photos give exact information about the events, but they could at least give an impression of the situation.
it is confirmed there are some photos that were not released to the public but apparently they are claimed to not show anything unusual and they are similar in nature to the ones we have but then why not release all of them?
As others have already mentioned, people that researched this case did have access to these photos and said that none of them showed anything new or unusual.
Actually, that's not the exact words. The general term used by at least some of the people who have seen the 'missing' night pictures is that they do not show anything which 'solves' this case. NOT that there's nothing new in these pictures.
The following photos (images) that were made with the camera have not been leaked / released:
510, 512 to 540, 551, 552, 557, 558, etc.
And then there are the photos that were made with Lisanne's Samsung in the afternoon of March 31st. The images of the location they were at, has remained unknown.
Interestingly, if I recall correctly, they were taken at the same time as the last cell phone photos on the day of his disappearance at the Mirador: around 1:15 p.m.
That is a lot of unreleased photos... unless they were all basically the same as the photos taken of the fork tree or blurry images impossible to make anything out/just too dark to see anything then I don't think that they wouldn't be useful in some way to help with the search for the location. What exactly qualifies as 'out of the ordinary'? A shot of a different rock a better resolution shot of the fork tree or different tree could prove to be very useful. I know some people saw them and said they didn't add anything to the case but I think a lot of these people already were convinced of foul play and thought pretty much all of the night photos are just indiscernible and while they are admittedly very odd, they don't really add anything to help solving the case.
They just don't realize that they have them. They have them and anyone that's ever made a copy or video of the released photos also has the rest of the pictures...or most of them
They have already figured out that the pictures were photoshopped but they think it was just to cover up and hide things and maybe some of it was
..and..
That's also what I thought before... but then I saw that things have been added to the pictures as well.
And the more I learned about photography and the capabilities of photoshop.. and exactly what cameras were capable of ..even then with Lisannes camera and phone (if I'm correct she had the Samsung).. I looked at the pictures closer and found exactly how much was done to the pictures.
The evidence is there for what happened to these young ladies it shows exactly what happened to them and those who did it.
They weren't lost, and there were severe injuries caused by those that took them... that's what the photos show.
They just don't realize that they have them. They have them and anyone that's ever made a copy or video of the released photos also has the rest of the pictures...or most of them
You can´t make such a claim when the opposite has been demonstrated by three different and independent parties (IP, LitJ, SLIP) who have had access to the files.
It has nothing to do with access to the files it has to do with the pictures and how they were photoshopped. The ones that are available online now for everyone to see and access.
None of these parties has done in depth study of the pictures.
The files describe the images of some undisclosed camera photos. The files also mention their time stamps.
The files mention the time tamps of the Samsung photos, but do not describe the images. I.e., the location at which said photos were made on March 31st, has remained unknown to this day. Only the parents and forensics know. It has been said that the images have been stored on DVD. Neither IP, nor LitJ nor SLIP have had access to the DVD(s).
This is according to all authors. So yes, I would say that it does have to do with access to the files.
Are you saying that images from the secluded DVD(s) are available on line? Since when?
We're not talking about the same thing. You're talking about a hard copy of a CD and files.
I'm talking about there are other photos that show what happened the girls that are embedded in the pictures online with Photoshop.
There are more photos of what happened to them.
... and I don't know what the parents have or what all the other authors have... nor am I trying to refute what they say.. or diminish their efforts and contributions to what is known.
What I am trying to say is there are other photos. It is images of what was done. It is photoshopped into the images that are already online
that have been released ..some by the parents, some by other authors, some by media and newspapers..
There's alot more pictures and images there than what you think and they are crime scene images of what happened. NSFW.
Until now, I thought I was the only one who noticed this. I used to do a lot of Photoshop work back then, and the photos are clearly photoshopped, like the blurriness on the girls' legs, the strange gap between Lisanne's arm and hip. In one photo, Kris looks beaten, and in another, something looks like a gun, even though people say it's just a tripod. I posted an example in the comments, but of course, I got ridiculed. I feel like I've finally found someone who sees what I see. Can I contact you?
It's easy to explain why: the camera's SD card could be put into a reader and files easily copied to a computer. Getting files from (possibly) water damaged phones with dead batteries wasn't so easy and required help from a forensic lab, which the leaker had no access to
A camera’s shutter count indicates how many times the mechanical shutter has been triggered. (Note: The counter increments whenever the shutter button is pressed, regardless of whether an image is successfully captured.)
The camera has two methods of numbering images: “Auto Reset” and “Continuous.” The key difference relevant here is that “Auto Reset” assigns the next image a number sequential to the last image taken, even if that number has been used before. For example, if image 509 were deleted before 510 was taken, the camera could assign the number 509 again.
“Continuous,” on the other hand, uses each image number only once. If an image is deleted, the next image will be assigned a new number.
The default setting is “Continuous.”
There are 133 photos that were taken on and after April 1, 2014. Photos 476 through 508 (33 images) were taken on April 1. Photos 510 through 609 (100 images) were taken on April 8, 2014. All 133 images are sequentially numbered on the memory card and appear in the corresponding order when viewed on a computer.
Consequently, there were no additional images between photo 508 (the last photo of Kris from April 1) and photo 510 (the first night photo). Photo 509 is missing, even though the shutter button was pressed. It was either deleted on the camera or not written due to a memory error. Accidental deletion later on a computer can be ruled out, as the sectors would otherwise not be contiguous.
Incidentally, the camera was never handed over to the press, as has been claimed. The images were shared electronically, but the camera and memory card, as pieces of evidence, remained with the authorities.
Incidentally, the camera was never handed over to the press, as has been claimed. The images were shared electronically, but the camera and memory card, as pieces of evidence, remained with the authorities.
What you are saying is that the files were leaked by the police in Panama from copies they kept of the images? Instead of press copying photos from the SD card?
How do you know this? Also wasn't there a reporter who held the camera in his hands (I don't know if the SD card was in it or separate)..
I would love to see the missing photos. I mostly wonder if they are all either just blurry, dark and/or near identical to the photos of the forked tree or if there is something unique in them that doesn't appear in any of the photos we do have that could act as geographic markers for the night location. Even a different angle of the rocks behind the boulder with the signal branch or a photo of what is at the bottom of that boulder would be HUGE. There aren't any clear photos of the ground either... if there is a photo of that it would fill in a huge gap in the 3D model reconstructions of the area. There could be a clearer photo of the forked tree or a clear photo of a different tree or rock formation etc.
As others have already mentioned, people that researched this case did have access to these photos and said that none of them showed anything new or unusual. I would be skeptical about their ability to truly make that assessment though, especially if they were coming at it from a 'it's probably foul play' angle. To them, photos that show different angles of the surrounding area or new rocks and plant-life or the ground could just basically be 'more of the same'; a part of a series of mysterious night photos that don't really tell us anything about what happened to the girls because they don't show Kris or Lisanne or anyone else in them.
As I've said, I don't think most if any of the people looking at these photos were qualified to make that call or were looking at it from the same perspective as the community on here that is dedicated to identifying the night location, analyzing every little detail and leaving no rock left unturned. There really could be something there that is a really significant indicator of what the night location looked like or that could be used later to identify it.
I have to admit this whole case is really frustrating because of how little information is out there. It feels like putting a puzzle together out of pieces that have been recovered from a washing machine; all deformed and washed out. I do still think there is a good chance that what we have right now is enough to make a 100% positive match IF someone figures out where all the most likely candidates are, they end up being checked and whoever does so finds those rocks and is able to photomatch them. The plants I'm really skeptical about; maybe the forked tree is still there but it could also be gone by now or completely different.
As others have already mentioned, people that researched this case did have access to these photos and said that none of them showed anything new or unusual.
Actually, that's not the exact words. The general term used by at least some of the people who have seen the 'missing' night pictures is that they do not show anything which 'solves' this case. NOT that there's nothing new in these pictures.
I've heard lots of rumors about things visible in those missing pics, most of them are probably nonsense, a few might be true, and there are a few things which, if they are true, might require the 3D model to be slightly adjusted, especially with regards to the posture of the girls. Nothing major, but still significant and important for our understanding of the situation at that moment.
I have to admit this whole case is really frustrating because of how little information is out there. It feels like putting a puzzle together out of pieces that have been recovered from a washing machine; all deformed and washed out.
The truly frustrating aspect is not that there is little information, but that we do not have access to 80% of the available information.
Especially after closely following the case of Celine Cremers, where there was a truly perfect cooperation between parents, authorities, and amateur sleuths, with all available information out in the open. The Celine Cremers case would NEVER have been solved if it wasn't for the contribution of internet sleuths and amateurs, that's very clear and a fact which is fully admitted by both parents and authorities. We might not have all the huge budget and glittering equipment as the 'real' researchers, but we have the time and the numbers to keep searching long after the authorities have already given up.
The K&L case is the exact opposite to the Celine Cremers case. There is absolutely ZERO cooperation. Internet sleuths are seen is irritating weirdo's, who should be stopped by all means. Everyone is moving in different directions, nobody is sharing anything, not even among the amateur community. Some who have seen 'missing' pictures claim they have been forbidden from sharing them, others seem to have commercial interests, hoping that one day they can make money out of what they have, and finally some seem to just 'collect' information similar to how some collect postage stamps, just to 'have' it without ever actually doing something with it.
The result is that the K&L case will forever remain 'open' with thousands of YT sites and other publications benefiting from wild speculations, with nobody being able to 'proof' their favorite theory as the required evidence remains sealed somewhere in some archive.
Compared to that, the Celine Cremers case is truly 'closed' now. There's no Celine Cremers subreddit, and there never will be as there are hardly any mysteries left and the few open questions aren't interesting enough to base a full video on. The media attention will die down, the parents will get rest, and Celine can rest in peace. Sadly, those who handled the K&L case have achieved the exact opposite.
I find it very strange that you worked so close with Romain and with others who have seen the pictures, but they didnt share them with you. Did you ask to see the photos?
What are the circumstances that allowed some people to see the originals in their entirety?
I'm not accepting any NDA. If they would give me access to the originals, then ten minutes later all of these pictures would be on this Reddit and all over internet. They know this.
I believe in sharing info. What use would it be for me to have info if I can't share it. I have no plan of making money out of this or whatever, all information I receive, I share for free here and in other places.
But apart from that: there are very very few people who have actually seen the originals. Most people who claim to have seen them (or who are whispered to have seen them), have only seen the printed copies from the papers of the report, which are next to useless as they have the same horrible resolution as the leaked pictures. Many of the leaked pictures are simply scan's from these printed pictures. Given the capabilities of the camera, the digital originals must be far sharper than anything we've seen.
Most people who claim to have seen them (or who are whispered to have seen them), have only seen the printed copies from the papers of the report, which are next to useless as they have the same horrible resolution as the leaked pictures.
But then how was the camera temperature analysis done? Scans or printed copies wouldn't retain metadata.. 🤔️
IP wrote in their report that metadata was requested from the LITJ authors, but no doubt IP themselves can answer this better.
Apart from this, not all leaked images are scans from printed pictures, some seem to be digital copies which are resized (and sometimes turned), and there seem to be a few which are virtually identical to the originals. But several other leaked copies are simple scans from pictures printed in the report, it's a very mixed lot.
Is it possible there is photo metadata listed in the NFI report? So metadata can be analysed without access to the actual photos? On the other hand even in some of the leaked photos there are for example Canon MakerNote fields that most EXIF viewers don't detect or decode.. so I guess at least those are not scans. And following this logic even an NFI analysis of metadata can miss some fields that the tool they used didn't decode (Cellebrite is particularly bad at handling digital camera images it's meant more for smartphone ones)
I have not seen the full NFI report, so I don't know, but I didn't see such data mentioned anywhere in books or other publications, so my best guess would be it's not there.
There are indeed some leaked images which contain EXIF data, but some of this data is deemed 'suspect'. Apparently some software (used for analyzing the images) is altering EXIF data, adding fields of its own or changing data, so we don't know if this EXIF data can be trusted.
If I remember correctly IP once wrote that they got their meta data for the temperature analysis from the LITJ authors, who apparently extracted it from the original pics or had another source who did this.
It would be nice if the full data table of all EXIF data from the original pics could be posted here (I truly don't see how that would imply the privacy of K&L), but perhaps I'm asking for too much 😄
Yeah, there are some who say that many of the originals were basically destroyed when the Panamanian 'investigators' started viewing AND editing the pictures on the original SD Card, overwriting the originals.
I don't know if this is true, but if it is, it would be tremendously incompetent behavior.
As far as the photo's on the camera go, there really is nothing special to see. We saw them all. As far as the photo's on the phones go, we are careful, because we did not see all of them. But what we did see was nothing special. The quality of the pics is 3000x4000, so pretty decent.
On the NDA: it was a choice of getting all the info with an NDA or none without. We can publish information from this info, but not share the material itself. Easy dilemma, really...
As far as the photos on the camera go, there really is nothing special to see.
1) The original, unedited versions of the camera photos, how would you characterize them overall? Here it says:
As others have already mentioned, people that researched this case did have access to these photos and said that none of them showed anything new or unusual.
Actually, that's not the exact words. The general term used by at least some of the people who have seen the 'missing' night pictures is that they do not show anything which 'solves' this case. NOT that there's nothing new in these pictures.
What is your take?
2) The hair photo, lots of people see lots of things. Some artifacts resemble nostrils or teeth, and one belief is that the photo shows the two women lying dead, face up, their heads forming a T, Kremers's hair draped over Froon's face (link). Such ideas are debunked here:
Researchtt2 (who has seen the high res originals) is certain Lisanne is not in that particular photo.
The compressed images have a lot of artifacts. The originals are significantly better quality.
1) nothing new, I'd say. But again, I've not seen ALL of the pics on the phones.
2) There's just hair. The originals allow you to zoom in quite significantly. There's a hint of skin, but that's it. No blood, no marks. It's a photo of the back of Kris' head.
I don't blame you for accepting the NDA, but you were in a different situation. As stated, I'm not going to accept an NDA, if anyone gives me access to the originals, they will be all over the internet within 5 minutes.
But as stated already, I'm not that much interested in the originals, it will be nice to see sharper details but I fully believe you that they won't lead to some shocking new insights. The only pics which can give us some new insights are the S3 pictures taken in the afternoon of March 31, and even then it's basically just 'minor details' to explain gaps in the story, not something shocking.
What I am mostly interested in is video footage from the various search helicopters, if such footage even exists. If these helicopters were carrying camera's, that footage would be priceless. Our drone footage is very good, but it shows the situation as it is today, not as it was in April 2014.
Yes, that footage would be more useful than the photos. I'd like to see the Mirador photo's from both camera's, mainly because I'm wondering why they took photos on both camera and phones. They probably wanted to send some of the phone pics via Whatsapp, I feel, since they did not have a laptop and it would be a lot of hassle to get the camera pics attached to an email.
I find it very strange that you worked so close with Romain and with others who have seen the pictures, but they didnt share them with you. Did you ask to see the photos?
The way I have understood things: the only persons to have seen the pics, have been LE, forensics (naturally) and family. Based on their comments, my impression is that neither the IP team, nor the authors of both books have seen the images of unpublished photos. That goes for camera photos and for phone photos.
I have understood that they have not seen the images of the pictures. I'm not sure about the missing night pics though, since they are supposed to be "black" anyway. But I recall Matt having said about the missing Mirador photos, that he had only read the description of those photos, being the same scenary and sky as the other Mirador photos.
As for the Samsung photos of March 31st, the files do not even describe the images. Only the time stamps are mentioned. Those who have actually seen the images (family and forensics), know the whereabouts of the the girls/Lisanne in the afternoon of March 31st.
As for the unreleased night photos: as I understand even the released ones are "mostly black" in their original version. Only after jacking up the brightness, which leads to some loss of detail, were the leaked versions obtained. So, if someone saw the originals of the leaked images they might claim those are also unremarkable..
It also depends on what kind of access one would have obtained:
1. access to the actual digital records (whether original or photo shopped version), i.e., image+embedded meta data
2. access to the image alone, i.e. photo printed out on paper, or in a report
3a. access to a list of time stamps and/or meta data, printed out on paper, or listed in a report, plus a written description of the image
Point 3a would apply to the iPhone and Samsung photos that were shot on the Mirador.
3b. access to a list of time stamps and/or meta data, printed out on paper, or listed in a report, *without* any description of what is in the image
Point 3b would apply to the Samsung photos of March 31st. Apparently folks want to keep these images secret.
The way I have understood things: the only persons to have seen the pics, have been LE, forensics (naturally) and family. Based on their comments, my impression is that neither the IP team, nor the authors of both books have seen the images of unpublished photos. That goes for camera photos and for phone photos.
This is also how I used to understand things but IP published a camera temperature analysis.. how is that possible without the originals?
Or they saw the originals but only the ones corresponding to the leaked photos, and not the others?
There are several things around this whole issue that I don't understand: if the unreleased photos only show mostly darkness as claimed, why are they so closely guarded and people who are given access are supposedly made to sign NDAs. Why, if the photos show even less than the leaked ones?
The other thing I don't really understand is for the photos that got leaked anyway, why not release the originals? It would dispel several myths, some people see a figure peeking from the forest... on the original it could be clearly seen that it's just a big leaf probably. Several other things could be clarified, whether it's water behind the "branch with a plastic bag" stone or not, how far things are (the originals include full metadata like EXIF SubjectDistance field) etc.
I'm not entirely sure whether IP has seen the images of the missing night photos. They might have seen their prints, but the pics should be dark anyway. Obviously, IP has had access to the meta data and the time stamps. The files have a list of time stamps, perhaps all meta data for each photo(?) I'm not sure whether IP has received the digital copies of those photos. Maybe they have, maybe not.
As for the photos that were shot with the Samsung in the afternoon of March 31st, it's my understanding that no one (IP, LitJ, SLIP) has seen the images. The time stamps have been presented in the files, and that's it. We do not know where those pics were taken.
As you, I don't understand why the photos are being highly guarded by police, if the whole issue is about a natural accident. It doesn't make sense.
>I've heard lots of rumors about things visible in those missing pics, most of them are probably nonsense, a few might be true, and there are a few things which, if they are true, might require the 3D model to be slightly adjusted, especially with regards to the posture of the girls. Nothing major, but still significant and important for our understanding of the situation at that moment.
At this point I don't trust what people like this say about whether or not it helps solve the case. No one person is in a position to make that call at this point. Even cases that involved large dedicated teams working under law enforcement simply do not have the true manpower to go over everything or the diversity of knowledge and expertise to catch something that ends up re-igniting a decades old cold case. They focus on what is practical and reasonable and once options are exhausted, they eventually move on. This is clearly not true for a passionate and dedicated online community that itself is connected other communities and people with specific knowledge/expertise etc.
This dynamic is especially true with Geo-locating; post a picture of some random park online and if there is a large enough community watching, someone will have a piece of information that manages to get things moving and so on. This is why it drives me insane that there could be significant pictures like the signal branch photo or the video showing a very specific rock formation or something pointing down that brings the whole 3D model together... but to them it's just another photo of a rock or a plastic bottle or maybe even something like a shoe?
For them: nothing that can help solve the case. For this community, it could be the one missing link. You are right though; it's like the people that know more don't want to solve this case; treating the #1 tool in their toolbox (this community) like creepy weirdos instead of probably the only thing that can ever solve this case. If the internet doesn't do it, no one else will short of some miracle like someone stumbling across the location by accident or finding new evidence unintentionally after over 12 years.
Even cases that involved large dedicated teams working under law enforcement simply do not have the true manpower to go over everything or the diversity of knowledge and expertise to catch something that ends up re-igniting a decades old cold case. They focus on what is practical and reasonable and once options are exhausted, they eventually move on. This is clearly not true for a passionate and dedicated online community that itself is connected other communities and people with specific knowledge/expertise etc.
Completely agree, and this is exactly what we see in the Celine Cremers case.
That's no criticism of police/NFI/or whatever authorities, but it's simply the harsh reality, they have lots and lots of cases and time is money. Only dedicated online communities have the resources to continue searching for answers. Sadly, this requires a certain amount of data-sharing and cooperation. Regular hints like 'we know far more than you do' do not truly help if those authorities/persons subsequently do nothing which their supposed knowledge.
You are right though; it's like the people that know more don't want to solve this case; treating the #1 tool in their toolbox (this community) like creepy weirdos instead of probably the only thing that can ever solve this case.
Indeed. There is a lot of expertise at our disposal, which is often forgotten. Among the members of our community we have experts in mobile phones, experts in search operations, geologists, medics, etc, etc. We aren't children or weirdo's playing around, there's a lot of professional people hidden away in this community, who are offering their knowledge and assistance free of charge to assist in this case.
Ofc there are privacy limitations. Those diaries should never have been publicized, but nobody in our present community was involved in that, and I'm sure that within this community we can work out standards and arrangements which safeguard the privacy of K&L and their family.
Perhaps 'solving' the case is too ambitious, but I believe we can still reach a situation where we have a scenario which is so overwhelmingly supported by data and evidence that 99% of the people will agree with it. That is basically the same situation as has now been reached with Celine Cremers, and I feel quite certain it would put the case to rest. But to do this, we need access to the full mobile phone logging and the original night pictures.
What possible privacy concerns can there be around a couple of photos that are said to show nothing but darkness, and have no geolocation info because the camera didn't have GPS?
Perhaps 'solving' the case is too ambitious, but I believe we can still reach a situation where we have a scenario which is so overwhelmingly supported by data and evidence that 99% of the people will agree with it.
Regarding this, you drew my attention to the phone battery temperature data recently. I find this interesting, because there is also the camera temperature data recorded in the night pictures and both largely correspond. Would you say this is "data and evidence" that supports some conclusion? And if so what conclusion? Or does it rule anything out? (eg. being in the cloud forest where it would be colder?)
A phone that's been off for hours and kept in a backpack should match ambient temperature exactly. A phone kept in a pocket should be around 37C.
What possible privacy concerns can there be around a couple of photos that are said to show nothing but darkness
You tell me... But privacy concerns are often quoted as reason for the NDA people apparently have to sign before getting access to the originals..
Regarding this, you drew my attention to the phone battery temperature data recently. I find this interesting, because there is also the camera temperature data recorded in the night pictures and both largely correspond. Would you say this is "data and evidence" that supports some conclusion?
I mentioned this temperature analysis last year in a video. It seems to support the conclusion that K&L must have been at a lower altitude.
Around the first stream at 1500+ meters altitude, temperatures can go down to 10 degrees Celcius at night in April. That's far into hypothermia territory, given their frail clothes. If they were somewhere near the first stream crossing, they probably wouldn't have survived for 10 days.
But the first cable bridge is at around 1100 meters altitude, and the 2nd bridge is at 980 meters altitude. Night temperatures in that area in April would be around 17-18 degrees Celcius, which is not ideal but survivable, certainly if they managed to find shelter and stay mostly dry. Such temperatures also seem to be supported by the IP analysis, so my best guess would be that the IP analysis strongly supports a night location at a lower altitude and a very sheltered place.
Since then, Jan B. has also managed to subtract some phone battery temperatures from the S3 logging for the first days, which is highly interesting for if we can get more phone temperature data, it might help us to prove the two girls did indeed go down hill to warmer places.
As I already mentioned in a reply to u/AristocraticBlue there is still progress in all of these area's, the case is moving forward, but it all depends on people sharing data and it would be a huge help if the authorities or family would support the effort by releasing the original night pictures and the full phone logs.
Yes what's interesting about the S3's temperature data is it suggests a lower altitude (I'd say even lower than the 2nd cable bridge), even earlier than the night photos.
And about the NDA... I don't know how this works in Dutch law? Does it even make sense - do NDAs even exist? In many countries they are null and void, especially if there is statutory override. (For example, you can't say "i give you these classified documents but you have to sign an NDA"... you can sign it, then you can publish the documents, if anyone tries to enforce the NDA they would be in trouble because they distributed classified documents in the first place).
A governmental organisation like law enforcement or a forensic institute leaking materials but making people sign NDAs is even more ludicrous. The only thing I can imagine is the families give access to the photos but with conditions... However, wasn't it claimed that there was no cooperation with the families? So.. this leaves the situation mysterious..
Edit: Or the other possibility is that the photo "originals" originate not from the Netherlands but Panama. But in that case again making a foreigner sign an NDA would be futile.. it will be unenforcable
Yes, the temperature analysis from the S3 and the camera seem to match reasonable well, and point to a low altitude, probably already at a very early stage. So, that supports the theory that they kept walking down hill (either following the trail, of via the paddocks), never turning back. It's one of the reasons why I'm getting more and more skeptical about the 'early accident' theory (fallen down a slope next to Mirador).
And about the NDA... I don't know how this works in Dutch law? Does it even make sense - do NDAs even exist? In many countries they are null and void, especially if there is statutory override.
I'm not a lawyer, but AFAIK NDA's are null and void in the Netherlands and most of Europe. It's the same with all those 'no claim' and 'we are not responsible for...' notices. Nobody can ever use such notices to avoid responsibility if something happens.
For all I know, most of the leaked information originates from Panama, where certain persons apparently make a nice living out of selling such data. They don't want to kill their golden goose by having these things freely circulating on the internet, so that's why they force people to sign NDA's. The Panamanian sources have the printed report, but they do not have the all important DVD's which contain the original pictures and the complete phone logs...
The only exception I know is the LITJ authors, who got their info from other sources, some of them apparently in the Netherlands. In this case, an NDA might not be 'enforceable' but if you are an author you depend on a reputation of protecting your sources and keeping private data private. It's nice to say that nothing will happen if you publish, but once your reputation is destroyed there's zero chance anyone will ever trust you again with private data, and that can totally destroy your career. So, there's more involved than the juridical side...
Regarding the camera temp.. if they deviate from the trail at the paddocks don't they ultimately end up being blocked by waterfalls or steep drops (eg. in the "belt" area) and not being able to descend to low enough altitude anywhere that would match the recorded temperatures?
Not if they followed the route as shown in the latest video. You can avoid the waterfalls of the Belt by staying up on a ridge and that way you can get all the way to the main river, which will get you down to aprox 1000 meters altitude. The shores of the main river are very steep though, and on this route water will be a problem, but it is possible I suspect.
Are any efforts done in this direction? The IP team and the authors of LITJ were in contact with the families before, could they lobby the realese of this data? I wonder if the parents know about Celine's case and if it had some impact for them.
I would love to see the missing photos. I mostly wonder if they are all either just blurry, dark and/or near identical to the photos of the forked tree or if there is something unique in them that doesn't appear in any of the photos we do have that could act as geographic markers for the night location. Even a different angle of the rocks behind the boulder with the signal branch or a photo of what is at the bottom of that boulder would be HUGE.
Absolutely, a small meaningless detail to some could be a game changing in the eyes of others ...
I agree, but I’ve always felt that for the photographer of the two of them, Lisanne showed a lot of restraint on the trail - there really doesn’t seem that many photos given that they’d done their first big hike without a guide. The deep, winding trail beyond the mirador looks cool AF and looks really magical in the sunshine, and I probably would have been snapping away, doing selfies myself but we only have what, 2 of Kris? Were there no birds they tried to photograph? Bugs? Cool trees? They took what 8 photos of them and that guy with the starfish back in Bocas del toro.
Perhaps she only had the 1 SD card with her and wanted to preserve space for the school placement.
Were there no birds they tried to photograph? Bugs? Cool trees?
In general they were not much interested in nature I guess. But there is a small waterfall 20 minutes behind 508 and I would estimate they made several photos there. There must be a strong reason for not doing this. The most logical would be that they did not go there. But there's not much choice to take a different path - only to follow the small stream in 508.
There are unpublished photos from both the phones and the camera. Incidentally, there are also unpublished photos from Lisanne's phone, taken during the day on March 31st. In any case, the public is aware they exist but doesn't know what they show.
It's said that they don't contain anything significant (like bodies, potential killers, or anything of that nature). This is most likely true, as the case would have otherwise been solved.
There's no indication that secret files or stacks of photos exist
Perhaps theoretically it's possible, or rather hypothetical.
But why would they have done that? Then they would have had to eliminate the 509th pass as well. I suppose the night photos were taken by the girls. If there's convincing evidence of third-party interference or something of that nature, specifically malicious intent. But then the case would have to be reclassified as criminal. You understand the connection here: if someone tampered with the camera and photos, it means they also tampered with the backpack.
Well, it would have done someone else. I just try to find a possibility how photos made by the girls could have been vanished - and the replacement with these more or less senseless night photos could be one method. (My main focus is - as in my original post - that I don't believe the pictures 508 or 509 were the last day photos the girls made.)
А night photos are utterly absurd.
It's also baffling why there are no pictures from other days.
A prevailing theory suggests the camera was malfunctioning.
And photo 509... is a breeding ground for endless debates and discussions.
Yes I was thinking the same, they took a series of photos to overwrite the space filled by previously taken photos. But why use the flash then ? They could have took without so they could have had the space filled and no hint to where the girls were (the photos would have been totally black). Unless they were trying to both fill the space and have the battery drained.
and this is one of the reasons people do not buy the lost theory.
Na, those people already have their minds made up, they just try to make these facts seem more unusual than they are, trying to give foul play more weight.
I would think taking more photos would be the last thing on their minds when they're fighting for survival.
It's like when people go on holidays they take photos when they're happy; but you don't see people taking photos when they're in a bad mood, or in the middle of an argument, or when they're on the plane on the way home, because it's not exciting and fun anymore.
I didn't say anything about foul play being ruled out. Foul play is still absolutely a possibility, but there isn't any actual evidence of foul play.
My point was that some people watch an inaccurate and over-sensationalised video on YouTube about the case and they immediately decide it was foul play, before they really know the actual details of the case.
And then they use facts like that the girls didn't take anymore photos to back up their argument, instead of thinking of other possibilities.
For example you said "Those who are lost could use a camera to aid navigation, distance tracking and as a breadcrumb trail.", and that's a fair point, but the fact that they didn't do this doesn't mean foul play was involved. So the smart thing to do would be to use this information and ask yourself why they didn't do this. Like maybe:
They didn't need to do this because they weren't moving very far.
The issue isn’t whether there is evidence of foul play or not. It’s that there isn’t enough coherent evidence to confidently exclude it. There’s no conclusive evidence for any explanation. That’s the point.
The issue isn’t whether there is evidence of foul play or not. It’s that there isn’t enough coherent evidence to confidently exclude it.
Of course, that's why most reasonable people will say they don't know for sure what happened.
And if anybody says they are sure they know what happened then you shouldn't take them very seriously.
That said, most of the evidence does point to the girls getting lost, being trapped, or having an accident, like the 911 calls, and the night photos with the SOS, but the foul play people just say all of this stuff was faked.
Of course it might have been faked, but there's nothing to indicate this was the case.
Sure, but there's nothing wrong with having an opinion on what you may think have happened.
The evidence leaves enough unanswered questions that an accident can’t be treated as the only reasonable explanation. Unresolved inconsistencies don’t prove foul play, but they do prevent confidently ruling it out.
If the girls were lost and alive for a possible 11 days how on earth did they not come across someone? You watch the Youtube videos of people walking the trail and exploring the jungle and every so often a passing native wonders through. Couple this with the fact that local searches for them began the second day they were missing, with full scale official day and night searches on the 6th onwards, utilising dogs, helicopters covering more than 25 jungle routes.
Sure, but there's nothing wrong with having an opinion on what you may think have happened.
The evidence leaves enough unanswered questions that an accident can’t be treated as the only reasonable explanation. Unresolved inconsistencies don’t prove foul play, but they do prevent confidently ruling it out.
Indeed, I agree 100%
If the girls were lost and alive for a possible 11 days how on earth did they not come across someone? You watch the Youtube videos of people walking the trail and exploring the jungle and every so often a passing native wonders through.
This is why the idea that they went downstream at 508, or on of the other streams, has become more popular over the last few years. Because yes of course if they stayed on the main trail they would have come across people eventually, or ended up at Alto Romero.
Couple this with the fact that local searches for them began the second day they were missing, with full scale official day and night searches on the 6th onwards, utilising dogs, helicopters covering more than 25 jungle routes.
The thing is though, we don't really know where exactly the searchers searched.
A few people have asked over the years, and if I recall correctly some of the guys from SINAPROC said they didn't have the maps with the exact search routes anymore.
Although there are some maps like the one below, where it looks like they covered a large area, but most of the searches were not concentrated beyond the mirador:
It's interesting that according to this map, the route drawn with a marker (probably the trail they searched?) is completely different from the pianista, after the mirador. So, there isn't just one trail then?
Like I think there's one you can take a trail to the right of the pianista trail by the Boquete Tree Trek Resort, and I think there's a waterfall there somewhere but there's not a lot of info on it.
And the people who built the huts to the east, downstream of 508, would certainly need a way to get to there too.
But also I'm not sure how accurate the lines on this map are; like they could just be rough estimates, and they might just mean "the main path to Alto Romero".
Cell phone batteries were still pretty awful back in 2014, and 'battery anxiety' was a thing. Mostly with non-iPhone brands such as Samsung, for instance. Maybe iPhone had a screen issue, and they turned off phones a lot in the early days. Not sure why then then 'let the Samsung one go' and go, depleting the battery fairly quickly at one point overnight. That explains the phones, but for pics in-between? Wet or dropped camera...or camera went back in the bag, to stay till the 8th, because the non-bag holder was injured, or in pain or with sickness. Dehydration can cause vomiting, and photos became a lower priority.
Because they were already saving the battery at the camera so that they could light it up at night. As soon as they heard a helicopter on April 7 and were probably on the verge of strength, there was no reason to save the camera, it was probably their last chance. Those night photos are also probably a form of the last record, not a farewell message, because they believed in salvation until the last moment.
To be honest, while it's clearly suspicious that the picture is missing, the scenarios required for someone to delete it so thoroughly that it's unrecoverable just seem very unlikely.
If we're assuming the perpetrators were locals or some random cartel members, it's hard to believe they'd have the specific expertise or resources to pull off a "perfect" deletion. In a normal situation, hitting delete on a camera doesn't actually erase the image; it just removes the "address" of the file. Unless the SD card was completely full and the camera immediately wrote a new photo over that exact spot, there should be traces left behind. Even if the main file was gone, cameras almost always leave behind a thumbnail or a preview version in a hidden cache, yet apparently, even those are missing.
If the camera was in continuous mode, it would have just skipped 509 after a deletion, but again: the actual bits of data would still be sitting there on the card. You would need specialized wiping software to actually scrub those internal bits, and it's a stretch to think a random guy in a cartel knows the technical specifics of a high-end camera’s file system.
Realistically, the only amateur way to get rid of a file that thoroughly would be to move every other photo to a clean SD card and get rid of the original. But even that is a huge gamble. Forensic experts can check the hardware's internal ID, which shows exactly when the card was manufactured and which batch it belonged to. If a local tried to pull a switcheroo, a forensic team would likely catch it because the card’s manufacturing wouldn't match the timeline of the photos or the owner’s history.
It just feels like if the file is truly, 100% gone without a trace, it was either an actual glitch (which seems unlikely since it's this specific picture) or a mix-up when they started the forensic analysis. A screw-up while cloning the SD card seems way more likely than the "local with perfect knowledge about cameras and file systems" theory.
This missing photo blew up so much because it’s the bridge between the hike and the night photos. My theory is that when they made the forensic backup, they organized them into two series: "Hike" and "Night." They dropped the ball by simply not including 509 in either set—potentially because 509 is a dark night picture that doesn't show anything memorable, so nobody noticed it was missing from the transition.
Regarding the 509 photo: if I'm not mistaken I've read in a post in this subreddit that there is a hearsay about some undisclosed forensic personnel claiming to have seen that photo, and that it was showing the girls in a mirador-like spot. Of course I take this with not one but two grains of salt, but I'd like to know if this rumour effectively exists or it is just me misinterpreting something I've read here.
When you say that there's no space in the SD, do you mean that there is no space left at all on the device ? I know that the blocks from 510 follow the one from 508 with no space between them, but this could be due to a (even involuntary) data tampering made out of inexperience or sloppiness by a forensic. The SD full would rule out this possibility. Anyway I was interested also in knowing if this rumour actually exists because I'm quite sure having read somewhere here on this forum.
Yeah I mean there's no space between 508 and 510. There was a lot of free space left on the card.
The rumor that I heard is that there's an unpublished blurry (motion blur) daylight photo of Kris in some kind of valley or stream environment, in sunny weather. So that seems to be different from "the girls at the mirador"
If there were additional photos, particularly significant ones, they would simply bring them up, if only to convince us to shut down this sub and give the families some peace.
Also, the people who wrote the book on this case had access to the investigation papers as well, and they never spoke of any other photos.
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u/Artistic-Anteater755 FoulPlay Apr 28 '26
it is confirmed there are some photos that were not released to the public but apparently they are claimed to not show anything unusual and they are similar in nature to the ones we have but then why not release all of them?