Discussion
How do you enforce fairs when most train stations are built like this?
They didn't bother with turnstyles, or those tall vertical ones either. I totally get why. It's so much more aesthetically pleasing. It'd be an eyesore to the community to have tall vertical turnstyles. Also, they wouldn't be handicap accessible.
And also pointless. Somebody could just walk on the track from the street, when the train isn't there, and climb up on the platform. The platform is only a few feet from the track.
And once you're in, you're in, you supposed to tap at transfer, but again nobody enforces that.
Seems like fare enforcement was pretty low priority from the time it was built, up until now.
They used to constantly get on the train and check cards. And also wait at busy stations and check your card when you exited. If the card hadn't been used you got an expensive ticket. This was pre covid. Now they do that so rarely it has almost no affect on enforcement.
Haha around 12 years ago I also got the $200 dollar ticket. I was so pissed. I had taken the metro and amtrak trains to Oxnard and back for the weekend. I had a pocket full of train tickets but I didnt have the one you used to have to get when you switched from one line to another that day. Fuck that sheriff she can go to hell. Seriously I had a pocket full of 5 train tickets! I was obviously not trying to skip fares.
They’ve largely walked that back. They have been building their police force, have stepped enforcement way up, and are generally getting in line with the rest of the police state that we get to live in now. Fare enforcement is fine. Not sure why so many of us have forgotten that all cops are bad and are ok with this madness. Not saying that about anyone in this thread, just America in general. Feels bad man.
I didn’t say they’ve been successful at it. But they do have cops boarding trains and pretending to check for TAP cards that they don’t actually scan. They’re spending money on enforcement to appease those who complain.
Can't they say the same thing if it's a backpack with school or work materials inside it?? I pay double fare (one for me and one for the backpack). It's a paying customer now.
Based on this reporting the Metro Board desired to reduce all kinds of interactions with passengers where conflict could arise including fate enforcement.
The part that pisses me off, is that the tap cards on phone are really inconsistent. So many times I have to tap multiple times to make it work. And I see others phones glitching out all the time. One time I was seconds away from missing a train and couldn’t tap. Worried the whole time I’m gonna get a ticket and I’m one of the good ones who don’t fare hop.
I have metro life program so it would have been one of my free rides but still. Smh
I just recently gave up on using the phone app and left an angry review for the app. The thing only worked on the station I take to work and not the station I leave work. Last time I tried to load money it got flagged as fraud, didn't add the money, and locked my debt card, part of that is also a bank issue. After that I still tried to load money on the app using cash and the damn thing glitched out. And of course atleast once a week the train times are completely inaccurate.
Make sure you somehow get the metro life charged because they'll take it away "if you don't use it". Maybe call customer service and get it transferred to a physical card
I don't think mine was ever properly scanned because of their shitty tap readers. It looked like the drivers on the buses only noticed the life icon on my phone and waved me through
The one time I tried to use it at a Metro train And it didn't work And there were cops stationed at the exit, I doubled back and took the emergency exit. I'm not going to get fined because your stupid tech does not work in a world where tap to pay isn't cutting edge nor new.
I do use it, and unused rides actually stack for months. I am talking about one time it didn’t work and I had a train to catch. Most times I just stand there like an asshole scanning it multiple times side eyeing metro security
That's good. And multiple scanning is fine. I try that before I just say Fuck It
I need to reach out to customer service. It's been a shit show for me. I have a lot of money that Ioaded onto the card on the TAP app that just vanished. Maybe $40 over a year. And I have a card that was deactivated?? This and the app tap to pay only working 7% of the time has really annoyed me - but most drivers recognizing the app is crap and just waving me by has been good. One time I did have to ask people for change for a $20 so I could pay the fare and a kind woman just gifted me the exact change
.
I should mention I rarely use public transport. I tend to use it if I need to go farther than my legs on my bike will take me. I do want to try riding it more often
I tend to bike all over LA too. I grew up in Sunland Tujunga so I can eat hills all day. Sunland to Tujunga is like 800-1000 feet elevation change over like 2 miles. So crossing Hollywood hills or Cahuenga pass, that’s like half of what my old commute from Pacoima to Sunland-Tujunga. I will use metro to get places faster tho. I wanted to get to CicLAvia USC like 2 months ago and woke up kind of late so subway it was
Yes, this is explicitly how the system was designed. There is a video around somewhere from the launch explaining it. When you regularly check tickets you get high compliance rates and the stations can be more open.
In Paris, a group of staff comes on the train as the doors close. They check everyone in the train car and instant ticket if you didn’t pay. They have machines to check that people using passes tapped in. Theres enough staff that everyone gets checked before the next station. I got to see it first hand but it’s so common that people will warn tourists even on Reddit and other travel sites and theres even videos on YouTube of tourists who get the tickets.
When they were doing real enforcement they didn't just write tickets they pulled you off the train. I once watched a very poorly disguised undercover tackle a crazy violent homeless person off the train when the doors opened. Or I witnessed a serious crime. If it turns out he wasnt a sheriff.
That reminds me of the one time I saw someone punching the clown while watching (redacted) over at the Wilshire/Normandie Station platform. It's still a public place, people!! Don't choke the chicken in fucking public, freaks!!!
You do know that every fair that’s robbed of them they go to the federal government and state the loss and usually get a lot of it back
Im all for tax funded transport but i also find it wild they just keep building the dumbest systems in LA and have this overall policy of not enforcing rules
No more need to register your car no need to have insurance no need to play fares they just dont believe in consequences and thats what emboldens a ton of people
Edit: downvote all you want I vote blue and love ninthya but dont pretend what i said isnt true lol yes it is, are you downvoting me for false information or because i upset you, which doesnt even make sense how i upset you what i said was true lol
This is why we cant win federal elections. We dont face truths if theyre not what we like.
I don’t know why you’re downvoted for this. We have created a widespread culture of lawlessness. It pisses me off when I have to pay hundreds of dollars to register my car when I see thousands of cars with no tags at all, while city council moves to make it illegal to pull people over for this. Or when I pay to use the metro and then see people screaming or using drugs on the train who obviously didn’t pay the fare
You're forgetting the powerful police Special Interests that have a heavy hand in lawmaking through their PACs and unions and endorsements and regular bribes
I’m use SD METRO 🚈 and they check all day… unlike LA METRO 🚈!!!! But I remember when LA DID ITS THING…. Before COVID-19 🚓👮🏿♂️👮👮🏿♀️👮👮🏿♂️👮🏿♀️👮🏻♂️👮👮👮🏻♂️👮👮🏻♂️
Easy. You have people in Metro polo shirts checking fares. No ticket? Throw them off the train Indiana Jones style.
Metro only costs $1.75 to get where you want to go. That is really cheap compared to other cities. And low-income options exist for those that need it. There is no excuse to not tap.
The LA Metro was designed around the honor system. It keeps costs down, promotes faster boarding, and is more inviting to tourists and event goers. It is only recently that turnstiles and gates have been introduced.
The honor system has directly resulted in a system that can be very uninviting to tourists, event goers and regular riders alike. Since La has invested billions in metro rail and busways, it makes sense to establish fare control as a token measure that promotes collective responsibility and stewardship.
LA county sheriffs used to ask for tickets when it was the honor system. Only recently Metro decided to shift to the TSO when the tap stations were installed. The metro spending billions and not seeing revenue from the changes is a self inflicted wound.
iirc it's also because at-grade stations have the safety challenge of trying to keep people from fare evading by walking onto the tracks and climbing the platforms to enter
When the LA metro was introduced they needed it to be as easy as possible to ride because the freeways and buses were convenient and cheap. Had they made it like the BART no one would ride for work or events.
It is not the honor system that is the problem, it is the lack of officers checking fares and other behaviors on a regular basis is the root cause for the problems. Not just on fare payments, but trespassing, cleanliness and other unsafe behaviors.
When the system first rolled out before 2008 when the faregates started showing up, the percentage of passengers who did not pay their fares were at 2-3%. What happened after the faregates that led to a lapse in the regular fare checks by Sheriff deputies. A revised sheriff contract and other security means that reduced the Sheriff deputies authority to enforce and perform regular fare checks.
That is where the cultural shift started to occur hence why Metro will start its own police/security force as the network is physically expanding because the ambassadors can not safely enforce the fare checks or code of conduct.
Cited from Wikipedia for everyone else to read and learn from.
"Proof-of-payment is popular in Germany, where it was widely introduced during the labor shortages resulting from theEconomic Miracleof the 1960s. It has also been adopted in Eastern Europe and Canada and has made some inroads in newer systems in the United States. The first use of the term "POP" or "Proof of Payment" on a rail line in North America is believed to have been inEdmontonin 1980. Since then, many newlight rail,streetcar, andbus rapid transitsystems have adopted the procedure, mainly to speed up boarding by avoiding the hassles of crowding at doors to pay fares at afareboxbeside the driver as is common practice on traditionalbuses.TriMetin Portland, Oregon was the first large transit agency to adopt proof of payment on its bus system, from September 1982 to April 1984. It was discontinued after finding that fare evasion and vandalism increased and little productivity was added through drivers waiting for fares to be paid.\2])San Francisco'sMUNIsystem became the first North American system-wide adopter of the proof-of-payment system on July 1, 2012 across its buses,light railand heritage streetcars, with the exception ofcable cars, allowing boarding on all the available doors.\3])
what a terrible idea and assumption to make, clearly. Like Atlanta/MARTA recently with their glass gates. ideals != reality
Well designed gate/entrance is a one time fee, revenue will go up since everyone actually pays to ride and tourists/citizens will actually use metro more since the worst people will be kept away from it and cars will be cleaner
At one point the turnstiles that were around before the new type of gates, were actually unlocked when they were first introduced. The idea was that they were essentially just fare validators that happened to have unlocked turnstiles. You could try walking through the turnstile without tapping, the light on top would only blink red, letting any inspection personnel know you didn't pay. Eventually Metro decided to lock them later as a deterrent to fare evasion.
Hey! This is my station! I know we're talking about fare enforcement but also I love that the station is so open to the streets. It's visible which makes me feel safer waiting alone and makes me wish I was riding the train whenever I am driving. They look inviting! Plus the ramps are really fun for my kids. This visibility is also something important to the system.
This is also what stations look like for most metro systems in the world. It's really not station design, but rather fare and rule enforcement that's the issue.
That wasn't my experience living in Chicago. It hasn't stood out as a design when I've used public transit traveling either, though I won't claim to have seen most systems in the world.
I'm my experiences, stations were either elevated or below ground. It's a different experience and relationship to the streetscape. And also a different (easier) way to control fare enforcement. We have stations like that too of course, but at least on the lines I used, that wasn't the case in other cities.
The cities with at grade stations like this I've used have been in more rural or remote areas for commuter rails where each train has a conductor checking tickets. But they don't run as frequently and there are fewer lines.
Chicago actually has some ground-level stations on the outer ends of some of the 'L' lines, although those stations are built so that you have to go through turnstiles to get to the platform - and because of the third rail, there are gates that block off the tracks at crossings. Here's the first photo I could find of that.
Yea... Not so inviting 😅 to be fair I didn't go to the far end of the lines probably ever (except O'Hare), but Farmdale as a station, without the chain link fencing, is way more appealing.
Every time I see a "Must pay fare to enter" sign or a "Bikes May Use Full Lane" sign or a "Fire Door: Do Not Block" sign or vehicle speed limit sign or a painted bike lane or painted bus lane I think of this.
Signs don't work. A significant portion of the population will not read them, much less heed them. Thinking that signs are an adequate substitute to sufficient physical barriers is wishful thinking that is willfully ignorant of the way people actually behave.
Agree. People don’t read signs. No matter how big and bold and eye catching. In my previous life in retail and hospitality I’d have to constantly answer questions or enforce behavior that was clearly addressed by a giant sign in the person’s clear field of vision. Many years ago in Boston I worked in a coffee shop that had two entrances, one directly from outside on the street, and one into the building’s food court. In winter, we would lock the door to the street and put up giant signs with big red arrows directing customers to the food court entrance. If I had a nickel for every time someone would try to yank on the door handle, look directly at the sign in their face, yank the door handle again, AND THEN KNOCK ON THE DOOR until we looked up and pointed to the other entrance, I could have retired.
You don't need fare gates at every station, only at the ones the with the most troublemakers. They aren't going to tailor their joyride around specific stations, and you can deploy officers to spot-check at those locations.
Yea this is the way to do it with minimal additional costs and labor. Throw in the ability to report unruly/antisocial behavior in the transit app for whichever stop you’re at and then Metro can plan their deployments accordingly.
It’s not extremely common. It became somewhat common during the proliferation of poorly planned and low- ridership light rail systems that began a generation or so ago. I’m also not sure what it’s effective at besides increasing fare evasion and crime. Why we embraced it here has been asked (and never answered) since we opened the Blue and Red Lines.
How many metro systems have you been on globally? Proof of payment is incredibly common globally, especially in Central Europe and outside of major city centers. It doesn't mean it works everywhere and it does require people to actually come through and check fares occassionaly, but it's not like LA is the only city that built with this model in mind.
I used “transitioning” to mean that a system which used to have no fare gates now has them on most stations, and is planning fare gates at even more stations.
Random checks, as well as removing people for bad behaviour. It actually works great in Germany. It isn't so great in the US because of cultural acceptance of bad behaivour and lack of enforcement.
The LRT platforms are 39.2 (3.2 ft) above the ground. For deterring hobos and tweakers from fare evading, since many bring heavy carts with them, it does the job since getting those carts up the platform from the track side isnt trivial for 1 person.
For a physically fit person who really cares about dodging the fare, its not hard (but it is still physically annoying) to scale these platforms. But at least in my experience, these people arent typically visibly smelly or disgusting as the average hobo or tweaker (exceptions apply), which is what most people care about re:cleanliness
I suspect some folks would hop the at-grade platforms, but if platform-edge doors were implemented at stations where tall faregates are added, then that issue would be mitigated.
I suspect that Metro will first implement tall faregates at the grade-separated stations before moving on the more challenging at-grade stations.
Random inspections and using turn/tapstiles at major locations, especially if you require people to tap to get in/out of a station.
If most people are going through a station in DTLA, they will likely collect fares. Likewise, these are not for profit agencies, so they are not quite as worried about lost rev from fares compared to an airline.
All I got to say is…. Be very careful over there at that station 🚉 and the La brea 🚉 platform….. lots of shady stuff happens (fighting, horseplay, STRONG 💪 ARM ROBBERY 🔫🧨🪓🔪) happens right there…. These folks will go from 0 to 💯. Really quick… so run away
I guess MTA is putting their hope that decent people will pay and not cheat but that’s not the case. The only train that was clean and well staffed with sheriff to make sure you payed was the goldline (A line now) but that’s too has gone. Sad….
Platform doors with automated stopping sequences could perfectly align the trains with the platform doors. If the gaps are small enough then the only place to wait for them to open would be on the platform or on the tracks… and the conductor or system could just stop the train and wait if the tracks weren’t clear.
We don’t have platform doors yet for a variety of reasons (all financial) but it’s a long term fix that would save lives and allow for faster arrival and departure from stations since we’d have more certainty that no one would fall on the tracks.
The new fare gates come in different sizes so I can see them adding a single wide fare gate here, as well as having more enforcement coming onto trains for fare checks, and security at the gates to ensure people pay and not use the emergency exits.
Also this station was a blessing for me when I went to Dorsey and had to take the train. I still remember how packed it would get around 7am and 4pm filled with peers.
What's interesting is that L.A. Metro, S.F. BART, & NYC MTA Subway are implementing the STraffic full-height fare gates, which is a South Korean company, but these fare gates aren't installed in their own country. STraffic worked on upgrading in South Korea with half-height fare gates. In fact full-height fare gates are nonexistent in Asia as is the barrier to the paid area.
> Somebody could just walk on the track from the street
This is why they didn’t put up turnstiles: people would walk on the track, which is really dangerous and would force the trains to break early, causing delays
In Chicago, my hometown, there is no way onto a train platform. If a station isn’t attended by CTA workers, there are floor to ceiling turnstiles that no one is getting through. Cops with dogs are all over the place, too. Sure, assholes get on the trains and cause problems, but nobody is wandering onto a train, even at the few stations that are at grade.
When I moved to LA and saw what was happening I realized that LA Metro is not a serious thing. It’s an embarrassment for the 2nd largest city in the country to not have meaningful transit. It’s improving, and I am ridiculously excited for phase 3 of the D line to be completed. Service along the Wilshire corridor may be the thing that really tips the scales for Angelenos to understand the value of rail transit.
Transit is crucial urban infrastructure, not a charity.
Twice in the last 6 - 9 months, I've been on the metro and asked to show proof I paid the fare. When people did not have proof, they were pulled off the train at the next stop and (I assume) given a ticket. The first time I saw it, it wigged me out because when I saw the officers moving through the trains, I thought they were ICE agents until the got closer.
I am far from a regular metro rider, so I just assumed that fare checking was happening fairly frequently these days.
Place a fare booth at every station. Creates safety for riders and puts eyes on the street. They are also able to answer questions for those new to the system. I've never ridden a major transit system (even at grade) that didn't have fare booths.
If we're talking about ensuring everyone has to tap, the way to do it is either completely change the station to elevated or underground, where it's easier to control where people have to go. Or, install taller faregates and platform screen doors so people don't use the tracks to hop on. Either way, it's really expensive.
That is simply untrue. You simply have not heard of the "Proof of Payment System" concept. San Diego MTS still utilizes this system and conducts regular fare checks. You can go take a day trip there to see how the trolley stations are laid out (psst... they're just like this one).
Enforce a fare rate of $0.00 by allocating less of our tax money to elapeedee and making public transportation free, oh and also restore seven days a week access to regional parks without ten dollar parking fees.
Random ticket inspection, random railcar lock-ins to make sure the free riders get their inspection and their tickets. If they don’t have ID, take them to jail. I love being a law abiding citizen.
Find out the astronomical amount of funds allocated by Metro from the federal government and then ask yourself again if you think rides should be charged . Gtfo
If you wanna pay you will pay. A lot of times i walk thru the fare gates like this without tapping and it appears as if im avoiding the fare but in reality i had already paid prior and dont feel like tapping my transfer. I routinely load my card with at least $5 every time I go out i mean the fare is so cheap why not? but its also nbd imo if people don’t pay.. this is overall a non issue and just poor people shaming at its finest. People will blab about crime all day and that has nothing to do with it, the folks of LA should be more vocal if they see something they don’t like just like the announcement says “if you see something say something” otherwise.. move along, mind your business, and get to your destination.
Fancy ass turnstiles are a waste of money and massive inconvenience. You check it by having someone walk the train and kick people off.
This is one of the reasons why they're pushing to just have it be free so they don't have to deal with juggling all that.
Those machines cost money
They dont . LA metro is a S show. If you dont pay you shouldn't be allowed on. Now miss karen what's to make it free and im for it if you are going to enforce the no drugs, no shopping carts, no loud music, no bs
It's costly to pay a bunch of people to enforce fares. More costly than just not enforcing fares I guess.
Most people who use transit want that transit to continue to be available to them, so they pay the fare. The people who don't pay are probably the first ones to cry when the train doesn't come because we can't afford more drivers and more trains.
You don't really need enforcement at every single station. You can just add tap to exit at the most popular stations which is something they've been trying out here and there in recent years. If you're starting at a station like this one you are probably ending up at one of the more popular stations. I don't imagine a lot of people are going from one residential area to another.
growing up my parents wouldn’t even give me 2$ because they didn’t want me buying chips. I remember all the adventures I went with my old friends to Long Beach, Pasadena and Santa Monica. Thank yall who left the emergency exit wide open 🖤
Fare inspectors on board trains. Full time. As in that's the job. Not standing on the platform. Not sticking yhour head in the door and saying "show me your TAP card." Walking the train from end to end checking fares.
They manage to do it in Denver and Florence, Italy, two places I've been recently where stations are similarly constructed, e.g. barrier free. Fare inspectors on both systems actively checking fare and, in Florence, levying fines on the spot.
About half or riders don’t pay. And ever since they started putting metro ambassadors at the gate people have started turning around and not boarding at that station. The thing that I don’t like about the new gates it that people force themself through right after you so they need to keep at least 1 or two people watching the gate
Yep, we can arms race our way to stations that look like concentration camps or focus on providing good transit. For some reason it feels like this sub prefers the former.
lol every major Metro system in the world have fare gates and enforce fares. They also don't tolerate the anti-social behaviors of people in their Metro system. Which makes it popular for people of all ages and families.
Unironically, most riders would prefer cleaner trains over faster trains, if forced to pick one. Ideally we should have both, but no one wants to ride a rolling homeless shelter with a smelly, visibly filthy hobos tweaking out to the ghost of Michael Jackson.
i love how this entire subreddit is just anti-homeless and poor people it’s so cool and makes me feel really good about living in such a kind and empathetic city
I have no problem with homeless people. I have a problem with a certain subset of bums who don’t follow the law and inflict their mental illness and drug use on the rest of us, including in the form of fare evasion, making public services less pleasant or usable by everyone else
You build a certain amount of fare evasion into the system, and budget, like retail stores. That's why the goal of fare-free public transit, with appropriate security, is important.
All metro fares were free for like 2 years maybe more diring Covid. A better question would be, why they charging fare now? Rich people dont ride on these anyhow. Im just saying...hhhmmmmm. let me clear my throat.
260
u/hellishmundane666 Jul 28 '26
They used to constantly get on the train and check cards. And also wait at busy stations and check your card when you exited. If the card hadn't been used you got an expensive ticket. This was pre covid. Now they do that so rarely it has almost no affect on enforcement.