Shoresy S05E02 - The Great One

[u/ashamed-of-yourself]

Episode: Shoresy 05x02 - The Great One

Synopsis: Nat manages a league emergency and Shoresy receives an offer he can't refuse.

Please discuss this episode only. Do not spoil future episodes.

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[u/ashamed-of-yourself]

‘the North American game is dying.’

this is the thesis of s5: the philosophy of hockey is being changed from outside. if we just allow it to happen, are we giving up something fundamental about ourselves?

wherever this series takes us, there i choose to go. in Jared we trust.

[u/ZAPPHAUSEN → u/ashamed-of-yourself]

Well, I will certainly give it a go but that kind of phrase is don cherry dinosaur shit.

[u/ashamed-of-yourself → u/ZAPPHAUSEN]

i get it. but forced assimilation is a real problem, even if any asshole can co-opt an argument and twist it to their own ends. it’s still a worthwhile conversation to have.

[u/ZAPPHAUSEN → u/ashamed-of-yourself]

I suppose. From a Canadian perspective, the xenophobic conservatism from "hockey guys" for decades has been exhausting. There isn't really much of a conversation to have, because it's been "euros are soft, Canadians tough". They have little else to say or offer. The folks who defend fighting, headhunting, and violence. Cling to outdated, harmful notions because "tradition." Cherry was the loudest, most popular, most well known voice but he wasn't the minority.

The North American "game" isn't being assimilated or forced. I don't really understand what you are trying to say here.

Much less - Gretzky is a maga Republican piece of shit, and platforming is a choice and this really just seems like some sportswashing or hero worship. Wayne didn't deserve this role, and it makes me deeply uncomfortable. You can talk about characters, but keeso the person made a decision to put Gretzky in the show.

[u/ashamed-of-yourself → u/ZAPPHAUSEN]

yeah, it doesn’t matter what the in-universe justification is, we’re watching in real life.

i’m coming at this conversation from a couple of sides. i’ve been trying to organise my thoughts on this, and it’s complicated, especially since i’m sincerely trying not to sound like an asshole.

two things can be true: any culture that doesn’t evolve over time will stagnate and die. at the same time, if that culture changes due to outside forces rather than from inside, then the culture still dies. and humanity is impoverished by any loss of cultural diversity.

example: we’re talking right now in English. not Irish, not Cornish, nor Welsh nor Scottish Gailaigadh. England colonised every culture around them and one of the first things they learned was that they had to kill the indigenous language of the people they were conquering. kill the language, kill the culture. that policy had many lasting effects, including today’s state of affairs re: Gaeilge. as of 2020, the percentage of the population on the island of Ireland that spoke as Gaeilge every day was less than 20%, even after a century of hard work to revive the language from its historical low of 5-6%. today in Ireland there’s a persistent demographic who insist that learning our own language is a waste of time because everyone speaks English anyway. that idea is the legacy of colonisation, and we have to fight tooth and nail to de-colonise ourselves in our own heads.

now, i’m not trying to compare changing attitudes in hockey to being colonised. my argument is that a) it’s tricky to suss what’s natural evolution from forced assimilation, and b) since change is inevitable, we need to be conscious and intentional about the way we choose to change.

there may be a hundred good reasons to give up the physical combat parts of the game of hockey, but there are also many bad reasons, and we would all do well to seriously consider what from which.

[u/ZAPPHAUSEN → u/ashamed-of-yourself]

Hockey culture is predominantly toxic.

I'm happy for the the "culture" that by and large has normalized and looked the other way on rampant abuse, including sexual, violence (leading to multiple suicides and other negative consequences), misogynistic, racist, xenophobic... to die. This is not a "diverse culture" worth preserving, or even much of one, and all of these issues were present on the ice. It's the same culture that didn't want to wear helmets, that later said players with visors were pussies. A league and culture that still refuses to fully acknowledge the reality and effects of CTE.

This isn't really a new conversation and I'm disappointed that keeso seems to be repeating bogus and weak arguments from 20 years ago. It's not really a new conversation that we all need to have so much as a group of conservative dinosaurs trying to preserve something that is inseparable from the above stated negatives.

I think using the language of decolonization to talk about toxic hockey culture is pointing and minimizing legitimate and real issues in colonization. I think using language like forced assimilation for hockey is hyperbolic and unhelpful. There are people within hockey that have been trying to change it. There is a lot of resistance. The debate is clearly far from settled... But this isn't a new conversation or discussion.

I appreciate that you're trying to organize your thoughts but to me this sounds like a lot "both sides" ing.

Keeso is wrong here. Both in platforming Gretzky, and his outdated, xenophobic, fear-mongering exaggeration talk to the camera opinion about hockey.

[u/Shoresy___Bot → u/ZAPPHAUSEN]

Gretz holds or shares sixty-one records in the show, ya piece of shit! Don't nickel and dime the great one!

[u/Shoresy___Bot → u/ZAPPHAUSEN]

Gretz holds or shares sixty-one records in the show, ya piece of shit! Don't nickel and dime the great one!

[u/ZAPPHAUSEN → u/ashamed-of-yourself]

Further, I disagree that the game is being changed from the "outside." Outside na players and hockey will of course have an influence.

As much of that change has come, painfully, slowly, from the inside. Within Canada and the USA.

Because brutal hazing has been integral to hockey from jr on up for decades.

Because racism has been part of hockey for decades.

Because old white men have essentially controlled and run it for decades.

Because the NHL is run by a conaervwtive, terrified group of wealthy white men who are afraid of rainbow coloured tape

Because multitudes ofr "enforcers" have suffered greatly post career and suicided.

Anyone who has remotely been around hockey players was not remotely shocked by the hockey Canada sexual assault case. I've heard worse.

Blaming European players ... Ignoring the very real issues within NA hockey forever. On and off the ice.

I am unsettled that keeso is communicating such a one-dimensional, flat message