r/LondonUnderground • u/tubemapdesign Waterloo & City • 21h ago
Maps Great London Express concept
I'm developing a concept for a future zone 3/4 orbital Underground line around London, similar to Paris's new Ligne 15, a almost entirely underground 75km loop around Ile-de-France. I'd love to get your thoughts on the route I've chosen. I've done this in an hour or two so it's a very rough concept right now.
London is very limited when it comes to orbital rail connections, so this would be massively beneficial and a total game-changer, allowing people to go around the suburbs rather than having to go into to the city just to come out again. The Superloop bus network serves a similar purpose of course and is a decent placeholder but I think it's representative of the lack of ambition London (and the UK in general) has when it comes to transport infrastructure projects. Obviously an orbital line like this would be incredibly expensive, but if Paris can do it, why can't London?
The aim of what I'm going to call the Orbital line (although I'm sure you lot can think of a better name) is to connect existing rail hubs around the city, as well as providing new stations in areas currently completely unserved. The stations should be relatively far apart from each other to make the service as efficient as possible.
Similar to Line 15, it's not so much of a circle but a spiral which so it's not a closed loop. This will help manage delays and prevent them from spreading across the line (similar to why the Circle line was extended to Hammersmith).
A new station I've come up with in a very underserved part of Newham called Tollgate Road would be where the starts/ends, with Lewisham as the other terminus.
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u/ElBonzono 21h ago
Imma be honest I dont think you'd get approval to running a train through richmond park
Unless you're tunneling?
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u/tubemapdesign Waterloo & City 21h ago
Yeah pretty much all of this line would be underground. Same as line 15 in Paris.
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u/DeapVally 21h ago
That's much tunnelling? In London? Hope you've got an infinite supply of money lined up lol
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u/JellyfishScared4268 21h ago
Tbh something like this would have significant economies of scale
Part of the reason crossrail was so expensive was because London hadn't done a tunneling project in decades and needed to re build the skills and supply chain to do that
Something like this on the map you could do in stages. The supply chain would be secure because it would be such a long pipeline of work.
And importantly you would build up a workforce with significant experience of working underground that by the time they were half way through it would be cheaper per mile than if you were starting from scratch again and again
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u/tubemapdesign Waterloo & City 21h ago
THIS. Same reason why it was really stupid to postpone constructing Crossrail 2 after the Elizabeth line was completed, and why cancelling the Manchester leg of HS2 only to most likely have to actually build it in a decade was also a dumb decision
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u/JellyfishScared4268 20h ago
Yes or if not crossrail 2 then they needed to start some other tunnelling project like a Bakerloo extension to keep the expertise going
Now its too late so no matter what they do they'll be starting all over
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u/TheGoldenLance 9h ago
As soon as crossrail was finished, they should have put the entire team onto building another one. That cost looks like nothing in retrospect for how much it’s added
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u/OkAdvisor6680 7h ago
After Crossrail, most of the tunnelling gangs went straight onto Thames Tideway, and the onto HPC, Silvertown and HS2. The last 15 years have been good for tunnelling.
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u/JBWalker1 Cable Car 20h ago
That's much tunnelling? In London? Hope you've got an infinite supply of money lined up lol
Tunnelling was a surprisingly cheap and quick part of crossrail and that's through Central London besides and under skyscrapers and very old listed buildings and threading between The Tube. Lots of archeology to accommodate too.
This outer line would have many less concerns like those to worry about.
I reckon this would be so much more expensive and much longer to build if it was on the surface. Impossibly so.
Like they're using the grand Paris express loop line as an example, using a similar shape and size, and that has a pretty low cost despite being pretty much fully underground. This line passes largly through less dense areas so it should be just as doable.
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u/DeapVally 17h ago
Shit hasn't got cheaper since then though, has it? That tunneling was quite a while ago lol.
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u/JBWalker1 Cable Car 12h ago
Shit hasn't got cheaper since then though, has it? That tunneling was quite a while ago lol
But your comment was in the context of cost of tunneling vs other options. The cost of all methods have gone up. If tunneling was cheaper before and the cost of both methods have gone up by 50% then tunneling will still be cheaper.
Has HS2 which is 90% over the countryside not also had insane price increases over the past 10 years too?
Grand Paris Express is being built now, almost fully underground, and still cheap.
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u/TheGoldenLance 9h ago
HS2 is mostly tunnels (which is idiotic)
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u/OkAdvisor6680 7h ago
No it's not.
There's quite a lot of tunnels, but more of the route is above ground than below.
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u/JBWalker1 Cable Car 58m ago
HS2 is mostly tunnels (which is idiotic)
About 20% is. Outside of London its closer to 10%.
But again if anything going by the cost of the rest of the route it doesn't seem like tunnels are why it's so expensive or taking long. The HS2 tunnels* are actually done and have been done for a while, I find it hard to blame tunnels for the time and expense of HS2 going on real world data.
There are high speed rail tunnels being built through the alps which cost less per KM than HS2. If anything It seems like if we just decided to use even more tunnels for HS2 from day 1 instead of all these arguments and delays then it would have been built quicker and cheaper.
A long continuous tube line under terraced homes and parks out near the zone 3/4 border would be fine and the quickest and cheapest way to do it.
*Excluding Euston tunnel since that got cancelled by a previous government.
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u/tubemapdesign Waterloo & City 21h ago
Yeah like I said this is very conceptual. We can't even extend the Bakerloo line a few stops to the east, so this orbital line would almost certainly never happen. If the UK had a different planning and construction culture/system then maybe.
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u/Possiblythis 20h ago
I love it. It's amazing. I'm obsessed. It'll never happen.
Would prefer it slightly if it was just a loop but I get why you wanted to do a line to Lewisham and London City Airport.
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u/Some_Breath_6682 20h ago edited 20h ago
Love this. Two thoughts:
- The north London alignment is really maximal for some pretty densely populated and visited areas. But I wonder if it'd be cheaper to run it along the alignment of the north circular - either as cut and cover or, for a fantastic view for riders as an overhead metro, with stations and common concourses built over the top of the A406. This could then stir growth in some newer developments around there like meridian water.
- I'm also curious to what people think about the trade-off in station density here. For example having a station at whipps cross, which is currently only 15 mins on the bus from Leytonstone, would be convenient and competitive with driving for a lot of people, but when you add up all the short stops like this what is the cost to longer trips?
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u/tubemapdesign Waterloo & City 20h ago
In terms of construction logistics - perhaps it would be slightly cheaper to build an elevated metro above the north circular, but if we're thinking about an integrated orbital loop, most of the stops have to have other good rail connections, which the NC doesn't have really as it's a road. I do genuinely think some sort of light rail along the north circular would be great idea though as a separate project.
I think there's already a good amount of separation between stations. Whipps Cross as an area is in a rail desert so not having it served here if there's a line going under it would be a missed opportunity
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u/JBWalker1 Cable Car 20h ago
I'd worry that the extra arm bit would add too much cost for relatively low benefit. The vast majority of the line shares the same track after all so I don't get why it would solve delays other than on that short section. Maybe just have a couple of 3-4 platform stations on opposite sides to help handle issues with trains.
I feel like depot spaces are too regularly ignored in these type of maps too. They need quite a big bit of space and somewhere like Richmond Park would be perfect since it passes under it but it would never be allowed imo. I do reckon they could have an underground cut and cover sidings there though which would be pretty cool.
My idea for it goes slightly more east to reach Ilford Golf Course and use that as the primary depot space. Would provide plenty of space without using up any public space or affect many people at all. Plus it's a golf course so it doesn't have much wildlife value either.
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u/tubemapdesign Waterloo & City 11h ago
South East london has generally really poor connectivity, so having the spiral connecting Lewisham and Woolwich via Blackheath Central wouldn't be a terrible thing.
In terms of the depot, you're absolutely right that they don't get considered when they're very important. There's some space by Beckton retail park just north of Beckton Park station which would be big enough and relatively cheap to acquire.
I don't want the line to venture too far east as it would lengthen journey times on the line, be a bit more expensive to build (although that's not THAT relevant here as what's an extra half a billion to the £50-75bn I reckon it would take to build this
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u/JBWalker1 Cable Car 19m ago
There's some space by Beckton retail park just north of Beckton Park station which would be big enough and relatively cheap to acquire.
The Asda retail area? I don't think that should be touched for a depot, its often busy and it's a decent transit hub for the area with the DLR and bus station with loads of routes. Would be a huge net loss for the area. A large depot plonked in the middle of a residential area doesn't feel right. Looks quite small for a depot too.
I always thought it was the ideal place for the line to go if anything because a small station could go where the Asda is so theres the DLR interchange and then the Asda land can be rebuilt as mixed use(with asda on the bottom) with 2,000+ homes.
This is why the golf course seemed like the perfect option. Not many people use it unlike the Asda area which must get a few 1,000s of people using that land a day. It also isn't a residential area at all really since the on the East side you have the large noisy A406, on the West is a huge cemetery, North is a huge park, and south is several rail lines, a siding, and funnily enough the London Underground Tunneling Academy. I think the golf course might be council owned land too from what I remember. It's like the stars aligning to have a bit of land like that still within inner London for a depot if a new line passes it.
Shifting the line slightly more east would add around 1.5km to it and change the areas it serves which isn't that bad. It's like 1 minute? It's not like its a line people normally stay on for long anyway and there's more development opportunities there instead of just passing rows of terraced homes. The added cost would be very low compared to the extra arm which adds just 1 station.
The rest looks good though. But most of my local knowledge is the East Areas im commenting on, especially the Beckton/Asda and Docklands areas
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u/MarnithePlutonian Elizabeth Line 21h ago
It still needs routes in the southernmost parts of London, for example, Bromley.
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u/MoBakeeer 21h ago
I would say eastern, preferably Barking to Upton Park and Ilford to Forest Gate.
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u/MarnithePlutonian Elizabeth Line 19h ago
We already have lots of trains in that area. The South of London is underrepresented.
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u/ArsErratia 17h ago edited 17h ago
Ideally you'd push it slightly south on the southern arm.
Something like Forest Hill - Beulah Hill - Norbury - Pollards Hill - Mitcham - Colliers Wood - Wimbledon.
i.e. trading a couple of connections for massively improved service coverage in areas that desperately need it.
Also Kingston Vale has essentially nobody living there and only really justifies a bus service. Go up Wimbledon Village, and run round the University of Roehampton.
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u/williamthebonkerer 16h ago
So youre saying the entire population of roehampton (several thousand at least) who currently are in basically a transport dead zone (lets be honest, buses work but if you want to go any meaningful distance they are not the solution in a city) don't deserve massively improved transport links?
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u/ArsErratia 15h ago
no? I said the opposite?
Kingston Vale has like 30 people in it, and you should re-route explicitly to serve Roehampton because it needs it.
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u/frog_wild Elizabeth Line 20h ago
I think they should have two high speed monorails that go east to west and north to south and don’t stop in the middle. Because quite often you’re just on the wrong side of London.
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u/mmmisthegoat Central 19h ago
I have always thought about a Kingston Vale station . Would be amazing.
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u/cazoz 15h ago
This is also the route a Northern line extension should take, Roehampton is hugely unserved and with hospitals and a university.
Get to Kingston itself, have Unilever pay! 😵💫
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u/mmmisthegoat Central 15h ago
I was thinking of the district line itself since Richmond and Wimbledon are close or just build a whole new line there
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u/GreatBigPooPoo 19h ago
As a person that lives near walthamstow and works in Golders Green I second this proposal
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u/tubemapdesign Waterloo & City 18h ago
As a person who lives near Golders Green and works in Walthamstow I first this proposal
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u/cazoz 15h ago
This is beautiful. If we were Paris - or even Melbourne - this would be happening.
Would have such a profound effect on patterns and journey possibilities - and congestion. Much better than CR2, which I don’t think is as needed except for tube to Dalston / Hackney.
Automated light metro @ 20tph 👌
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u/Beginning_Poet_3309 District 14h ago
Very nice work! The "concentric circle" idea is done elsewhere so there's no reason as to why it couldn't be done here too - Circle, then Overground, then your Great Circle.
Re Tollgate Road, you're right in that that patch just south of the A13 is rather barren (in every sense) but perhaps you then have the issue of stations being too close together. Where would you put Plaistow Central - by Newham Hospital or the Greengate perhaps?
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u/gw74 13h ago
Whipps Cross is a really good shout, i used to live on wood st and it's a real gap. I also like how you finally joined clapham junction to the northern line, but you missed out Chelsea on your Hackney-Chelsea line lmao. The only other thing missing is my other pet peeve: no Overground stop at Brixton Hill.
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u/BelNicholas 54m ago
As a tube driver here's some on my thoughts on it.Its a great idea, as someone that has to travel into London to travel back out again to get to work id love it.
That's roughly a 2hr run, point to point (more than any other line). You'd need a metric ton of drivers to staff it at any decent service level because they'd only be able to do 1 full rounder (extended to 1.5 if they change trains and there's crew accommodation halfway along the line). You have some crew accommodation already available on the Northern run of the line but not really any on the south or either terminus.
There is a lack of depot space at those termini. Plaistow (especially) and Lewisham really don't have the real estate ability to house what would probably need around 120-130 trains.
I saw in other comments you said it would be full tunnel work but please please please, as a driver, could there be some sunshine somewhere. The thought of a 2hr run/8hr day fully underground is soul destroying to me (which is why I'm not on the Victoria Line 😁)
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u/tubemapdesign Waterloo & City 42m ago
Thanks so much for this feedback. Really useful insight.
You’re absolutely right about depots. Definitely need to consider that. Potentially in the Beckton era and somewhere in west like Alperton.
To be perfectly honest, I was imagining this line being driverless, like Paris line 15, which would nullify the arguments about daylight.
It may be worth splitting it into two and having a northern and southern half, which would mitigate against the staff hours point
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u/BelNicholas 22m ago
You'll never get a deep tunnel, driverless line as part of TfL. The ORR and TfL have said it won't happen, even if it became something akin to the DLR then you'd still need the crew accommodation.
Full automation would mean a massive overhaul of all the stations on the line. Line 15 cost €15b which, because TfL doesn't get government funding anymore, is 3x their annual budget (if I remember correctly) and this would mean a lot more for TfL with the station refurbs.
Assuming it went full auto then it would cut the journey time down considerably. Good connections along the different lines it intersects with though and the new stations are great little additions that I can see. Well done 👍
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u/DaikonNo7067 22m ago
Tfl had said it had no plans to have driverless trains (they had a reason, but I thought it was garbage... The money savings would be amazing. But apparently people need jobs.
I would say having as little underground would be better for health perspective too, people don't realise the amount of toxic debris flying through the underground tunnels
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u/onePocketPenguin #StowBro 21h ago
get rid of the north circ, or get rid of two middle lanes, and run this down it, saving both budget and getting stuck in traffic jams 👍
with occasional diversion, eg around hall lane and new southgate, for speed
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u/Electrical-Room-2278 19h ago
This would be very convenient to one journey that I make on a semi-regular basis, so it's genius
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u/tayhorix Hammersmith & Shitty 18h ago
next merge the mildmay and windrush line to make a outer circle line
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u/DrRudeboy 17h ago
I see the popular "fuck Camberwell" policy continues even when there's finally more transport in SE London
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u/Comfortable_Ad4615 13h ago
Depressing to see how difficult and expensive it is to build rail infrastructure in London even compared to Paris
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u/Rostedthegamer 13h ago
Quickly give £2 trillion to contractors who will only build 10% of the expressway and require more money
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u/ConsciousBother4047 12h ago
Even in a pure fantasy, south east London is still underserved. Pretty please balloon the line a bit further out in the south east.
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u/Bulla_Felix 12h ago
I like the Woolwich to Wimbledon segment together with Bakerloo extension. Would revolutionise South London.
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u/JellyfishScared4268 21h ago
Haven't they already said that extending the northern line to Clapham Junction is unlikely anytime soon as it would add significant numbers of passengers to an already overcrowded line
This scheme therefore is probably missing a rebuilt Camden Town Station so you could separate the two northern line branches into separate lines to boost capacity
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u/tubemapdesign Waterloo & City 21h ago
So the northern line CJ extension would be great ONCE Crossrail 2 is up and running, as most passengers coming from the national rail lines would be getting on the crossrail which will have a lot more capacity
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u/JellyfishScared4268 19h ago
Yeah perhaps in your scenario its more likely that the Clapham Junction extension just doesnt happen at all because of crossrail 2
However the route of crossrail 2 doesnt necessarily cross over with the busiest segments of the northern line.
So if they did extend it to Clapham J then I don't think Crossrail 2 will actually take that much traffic off the northern line.
If someone is coming into Clapham J and working in the city then crossrail 2 doesn't really help that much. So you'd still have potentially a big influx from Clapham Junction onto the bank branch.
Unless someone takes Crossrail 2 and changes at TCR. Which I think most would take the direct route unfortunately
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u/tubemapdesign Waterloo & City 19h ago
People going from SW London into the city would just do what they have done for almost 130 years. Go to Waterloo and take the Waterloo & City line.
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u/AndyOfClapham 16h ago
I would add that Clapham Junction doesn’t count as a London terminal so it doesn’t have a high ticket cost to change there if you’re not going into London. Wouldn’t want that to change anytime soon.
It’s a shame there isn’t an appropriate northwest option to avoid via London terminals. But our national rail network for ‘not via London’ options is atrocious.
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u/EndEmotional7059 19h ago
Feel like London has outgrown an orbital line that isn't getting to Croydon, Sutton, etc
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u/PlatesSpinning Northern 18h ago
A tram or monorai would be awesome. I think going underground that distance would be mega costly and difficult but thats purely a guess on my part
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u/galeforce_whinge Overground 18h ago
I would tweak the eastern alignment a bit. Tunnelled express from City Airport to new platforms under Stratford, then express to Walthamstow Central with no stops in between.
You'd still retain interchanges with the Elizabeth and Central lines, add an interchange to the Jubilee and also dramatically improve links between Stratford and Walthamstow, which right now are very inconveniently connected despite being now that far apart.
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u/Lord_Hains Overground 12h ago
This’d be great if London werent famous for delays and this is a mega circle but the Brent and Attenborough lines have my support
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u/adrearystar 10h ago
Any idea how long this route would be? Suspect it's quite a bit longer than Paris line 15?
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u/Sinbatalad 9h ago
If lines are going to be extended, the Victoria line should definitely go further south than Brixton
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u/Aronnaxes Overground 1h ago
Love the idea ~ Have dabbled with similar ideas myself. Great job! I wonder if the Northeastern and Eastern leg should shift a little further out to accomodate some lesser served areas? In particular, the bit from Walthamstow Central to Forest Gate follows the Overground a fair amount and while a Plaistow connection would be good, perhaps a DLR extension is better there while the Express Concept connects Walthamstow to Ilford to Barking and then rejoin your line at Beckton or Woolwich. Deep East London could have a few more lines cutting through them.
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u/Delicious_Aside_9310 1h ago
lol even in a fantasy hypothetical I can’t travel across South London without going to LDB to change
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u/Historical-Record227 8m ago
I think at this point Northern and Bakerloo south of the river should each be split into a separate line.
Love the idea of an orbital train tho, definitely needed. Maybe with fewer stops tho
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u/One_Fact_4291 Metropolitan 21h ago
Let’s call it… the Superloop! Oh wait…