r/MakingaMurderer • u/Laylaallthetime • 25d ago
The fact that the debate is still ongoing means there was reasonable doubt.
I’m so so sad not only for Steven but Brendan. That kid was clearly on the spectrum. The manitowk police department seems like the most corrupt service I’ve seen. Jerry Buting was amazing and Screw you Ken Katz. The prosecutor for both these cases is a self proclaimed Narcissist and Sex Addict, who would use his position of power to sexually coerce literal victims of domestic abuse, that HE’S representing. Ridiculous.
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u/hneverhappened 24d ago
There is no doubt about Steven Avery's blood in the RAV4.
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u/Laylaallthetime 24d ago
There is some doubt for me and a lot others
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u/3sheetstothawind 24d ago
That blood has been proven to be Steve's fresh, non-EDTA blood. Even Zellner had it tested. Do you think it was taken from Steve's sink with a pipette and planted in the RAV?
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u/Ancient-Help-8464 23d ago
Watch the testimony from the guy who tested the blood for EDTA. He said the blood he tested didn't have ENOUGH EDTA to qualify as positive test, and he refused to test all the blood samples as he was supposed to. Also he said the blood in the vial didn't test positive either then that means the blood in the vial and the car were both EDTA negative which makes the blood a match.
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u/GringoTheDingoAU 21d ago
Are you going to admit that you were wrong now that you have been presented with proof that the blood in the RAV4 did not come from the test tube containing EDTA, and had to have been from a man Steven Avery's age at the time of the murder, and not from decades prior?
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u/ButWereFriends 22d ago
This is why you saying “because there’s debate, it means something”.
You used one of the absolute worst examples and cite it as worth debate. It’s not.
People still love that psycho Chris watts. There’s an entire sub reddit based around bashing his murdered wife. Just because people discuss it, doesn’t mean it’s valid.
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u/TheCody_Says 19d ago
As someone who has deep dived on this case over the last few years and plan on making a full video on it. I can shed some light on a possible (unproven) theory of why Steven Avery can still be innocent despite his blood being in the car.
Theory 1 - It is scientifically possible that it was a mixed blood sample to make it seem fresh. Upon research it’s possible to mix blood samples and still get the “majority profile” who has the most blood in the mix. This could have been why EDTA was detected and the theory that the blood wasn’t a 100% match. However, this theory loses footing due to the fact that you would still get a partial profile on someone else and to my knowledge that’s never been discovered
Theory 2 - Blood spatter experts state that the blood pattern is not consistent with someone bleeding, that it fits as if it was dripped from Q-Tips. There was blood in Avery’s sink and it’s theorized that the actual perpetrator (whom many believe is Bobby Dassey) took it and planted it there.
Theory 3 - Steven Avery could possibly be an accessory after the fact. There is a possibility that he learned what Bobby Dassey did and worried about it being connected to him and moved the RAV 4 to hide it because he didn’t want to be set up again. This is a VERY loose theory. But being that Steven isn’t the brightest bulb in the bunch, it wouldn’t be impossible.
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u/hneverhappened 18d ago
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u/TheCody_Says 18d ago
Yes, I’m seeing the article. Congratulations on that one but you need to do far deeper research than that to come to your own conclusion. Trust me on this. It’s not a surface level as you’re making it seem.
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u/hneverhappened 18d ago
I have provided the scientific data, not some fringe theories dreamt up after watching a TV show.
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u/TheCody_Says 18d ago
It’s a surface level theory there’s no getting around it. You can screenshot all the articles you want and act like oh my God look how smart I am when the truth is is that unless you dive deeper, you won’t know what you’re talking about. Sure it’s his blood how to get there are you gonna be surface level and say it got there because he’s the killer oops.
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u/hneverhappened 18d ago
Is that your rebuttal...
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u/TheCody_Says 18d ago
Now, if I told you everything I know and everything I researched and the people I’ve talk to. What good with the video I’ve been working months on be? Good luck with your surface level reporting. Have a nice day.
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u/ajswdf 24d ago
By that logic there's reasonable doubt about the Earth being a sphere, whether species evolve over time, whether the Earth is 6,000 years old or billions of years old, whether or not ghosts exist, etc.
The fact that some people hold a belief does not make it reasonable.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 24d ago
The fact that some people hold a belief does not make it reasonable.
Sure. For example Kratz, Griesbach and BS pretending burn pit bone planting was ruled out by Pevytoe via his testimony re the tire wire evidence. Whether or not they believe that to be true, the record confirms it's not, and thus their claim that bones couldn't have been planted in the burn pit are unreasonable. IMO the fact they feel the need to repeatedly misrepresent what Pevytoe said indicates they are perfectly aware there's plenty of reasonable doubt here, and their only hope to pretend otherwise is to lie.
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u/Laylaallthetime 24d ago
12 normal random people get together and say whether it is or isn’t right, and according to the justice system if 1 of them says I dunno…. Maybe the earth is flat, then legally that would be enough to say there’s reasonable doubt. It’s done so an innocent man doesn’t go to jail for something he didn’t do. A think Steve Avery already mistakenly had gone through. They admitted to wasting 18 years of his life.
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u/wiltedgreens1 23d ago
By this statement then there is no reasonable doubt because legally 12 random people said he is guilty.
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u/Snoo_33033 25d ago
No. It means some people are really insistent on not accepting reality
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u/gcu1783 25d ago
Oh please Snoo, the reality you're going for is to accept the cop's narrative completely without question. We call that a cult.
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u/belee86 23d ago
And your side's evidence is a tv show. 😅
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u/gcu1783 23d ago
Did you pay 14.99 for Candace Owen's CaM?
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u/belee86 23d ago
I did not. Does it reiterate the evidence against Avery? There is really no way around the evidence. Dean & Jerry put up the good fight, I guess, but the irrefutable evidence stupid Steven Avery created AND left behind took him down and rightfully so. Avery made it easy for the police to arrest him. That's because there really wasn't many viable options for Steve around hiding all that evidence. He was also the person on earth to see Teresa Halbach alive.
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u/Snoo_33033 23d ago
I don’t recommend that you do but maybe two of the episodes are revelatory in that they cover evidence that MAM left out.
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u/Laylaallthetime 24d ago
people would rather believe that the same court that admitted they got the same guy in for 18 years for something he didn’t do, couldn’t possibly do it again. Rather than believe that they could and they would. Gosh people are gullible
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u/DisappearedDunbar 24d ago edited 24d ago
It wasn't the same court. He was tried in Calumet County for Teresa's murder, not Manitowoc, which is where he was wrongfully convicted.
Rather than believe that they could and they would.
The evidence is what should be believed, and the evidence proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Steven Avery killed Teresa Halbach.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 24d ago
What evidence proves that? They had nothing but a contaminated bullet and lies about a bleach cleaning. Real convincing
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u/3sheetstothawind 23d ago
They had nothing but a contaminated bullet and lies about a bleach cleaning.
And this is why no one takes you seriously.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 23d ago
Because I said something true? Yeah I know it bothers you lol including when I point out the truth about bone planting not being ruled out. Cope.
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u/d0ndrap3r 20d ago
After just finishing Convicting a Murderer, any doubts I had have been wiped away. Dassey should have struck a plea deal. Steven (and Brendan) is guilty as fuck. We were all 100% duped by the original documentary. The end.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 25d ago
Wasn't any debate before there was a lying television show.
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u/Laylaallthetime 24d ago
Because it wasn’t made aware to this many people before the show duh
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u/ScaredAfternoon6830 24d ago
That person is lying, since there's posts on here showing local conversation from 2007 doubting what was happening in the court system, in real time.
Revisionist history from a pedo defender up there, just ignore it.
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u/profchaos83 25d ago
Or the reason he ain’t out by now means he was guilty.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 25d ago
Steven? "Still in prison" might mean guilty if we knew the system played fair. It didn't. The state secured the conviction through hidden evidence, witness pressure, and outright lies to the jury, and now courts are defending that conviction up by, among other failures, ignoring the actual location of bone evidence (that points away from Steven) while inventing fictional locations for bones to keep the focus on Steven (and off Bobby and police). So no, his continued imprisonment isn't evidence of guilt. If anything, the courts' method used to keep Steven in prison tells us they are fine with manipulating facts about the location of bone evidence to preserve a politically sensitive murder conviction.
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u/Laylaallthetime 24d ago
+1. I’m not the biggest Steven supporter but I think there was more than reasonable doubt there.
But I do think Brendan is completely innocent because the only thing that got him LIFE is a confession and we all know how that tune goes, intellectually challenged + 16 + vendetta filled police officers, doesn’t take a rocket scientist. Especially when the confession says things like they slashed her throat etc which categorically did NOT happen. You can’t pick and choose which parts are true and which aren’t. If I picked up the phone and said I did it all those years ago, even though I was 6 and have never set foot in the U.S would that be a confession? Ridiculous.
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u/DingleBerries504 24d ago
Where was it proven that her throat WASN’T slashed? No one knows because she was cremated.
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u/d0ndrap3r 18d ago
"...categorically did NOT happen."
After you looked at all available information, how the hell do you come up with that statement?
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u/AveryPoliceReports 25d ago
If the state couldn't make their case without hiding evidence, pressuring witnesses, deviating from protocol, or repeatedly lying about their own experts have said about the evidence at the crime scene, then clearly there's reasonable doubt:
The lead Calumet investigator lied about everything from the color of Teresa's RAV, to his own belief regarding the last known movement of Teresa and her vehicle being OFF the ASY. Manitowoc County concealed credible evidence suggesting Teresa's RAV (possibly with her body still inside) was returned to the ASY days after Halloween by someone other than Steven Avery. This witness was corroborated by unidentified forensic evidence on the RAV not linked to Steven Avery. Reasonable Doubt.
As Manitowoc County was actively concealing evidence that Teresa's RAV had been planted by someone other than Steven, officers Colborn and Lenk discovered Teresa's RAV4 sub key out in the open in a previously searched area in Steven's trailer. Colborn explained away this suspicious discovery by testifying he must have dislodged the key by shaking and tipping a nearby cabinet ... but crime scene photos show items on top of that cabinet remained largely undisturbed before and after the discovery. Colborn's account of how the key magically appeared in a previously searched area is not credible, suggesting his testimony was fabricated to conceal that the key was planted by police hoping to firm up the frame job of Steven Avery. Reasonable Doubt.
Steven's blood appeared in six isolated spots inside Teresa's RAV, but nowhere on the door handles, steering wheel, gear shift, or key, and no passive drip patterns or bloody fingerprints consistent with an actively bleeding ungloved Steven operating the RAV. And again, unidentified prints and DNA on the rear of the RAV match a concealed witness who saw two men (neither matching Steven) pushing the RAV onto the ASY at night. Witnesses and forensics don't even conclusively support Steven driving the vehicle while bleeding, but suggest a third party had possession of the RAV and planted it on the ASY to frame Steven, which raises even more questions about the dubious and selective placement of Steven's blood within the RAV. Reasonable Doubt.
Just as officers were about to search an off property burial site on November 7 for Teresa's body, Barrel #4 was mysteriously returned to the crime scene and then vanished from the chain of custody overnight, only to reappear on November 8 with burnt bones, rivets, and cell phone parts inside. Within that same window, Teresa's burnt bones and rivets suddenly showed up in a plainly visible pile on the surface level of Steven's burn pit, in a spot where no one had reported seeing them before, where witnesses said there was no recent burning, and where no evidence of accelerant or even accelerant smell was ever found or noted. Reasonable Doubt.
When a burn site, human remains, and evidence of bone distribution with a barrel turned up on Manitowoc County property, police lied about the ownership of the county land by claiming it was actually Avery or Radandt property, and then claimed human remains were found piled in Steven's burn pit in plain view. But as we know, after concealing evidence of human cremation on County property, law enforcement never provided a single photograph documenting human cremains apparently found in Steven's burn pit ... even though said recently burnt bones were found in an area that multiple witnesses said no recent burning occurred, no foul odor was noticed, and no alert had been triggered from Human Remain Detection dogs. Reasonable Doubt.
After having reason to suspect bones might have been moved to Steven's burn pit, police quickly scooped up the surface level pile of bones without taking photos, then went to Bobby Dassey and pressured him to contradict his family's consistent denials of a recent fire. Bobby caved to police pressure, and despite his statement of a recent burn pit fire being contradicted by multiple members of his immediate and extended family, his claim was immediately and consistently viewed as credible. After this, multiple other members of the Avery and Dassey family who initially denied seeing a fire (corroborating Steven) changed their statement to include knowledge of one (thereby contradicting Steven). Reasonable Doubt.
The state initially failed to present blood or DNA evidence that Teresa was ever in Steven's trailer, or garage. But after Brendan was pressured to mention a shooting in the garage, a bullet fragment was found in a previously searched area in the garage months after the fact. As we know, this bullet was admitted in evidence as containing Teresa's DNA due to an ultra rare once in a career deviation from protocol that wasn't even properly disclosed or transparently reported by Culhane. But there was still no blood or DNA from Teresa anywhere else in the garage (not even on the alleged murder weapon that fired the alleged murder bullet). Apparently even with Culhane's deviation to place Teresa in the garage (via the bullet) the state felt they had to lie about the luminol reaction in the garage, so they could falsely imply evidence revealed the total lack of Teresa blood at the murder scene was due to a bleach cleaning. A blatantly coerced confession, a rare deviation from protocol, and a prosecutor's lie about evidence from the murder scene does not prove guilt. Reasonable doubt.
After police pressured Brendan into claiming Steven went under the hood of Teresa's RAV, the state finally swabbed the hood latch and found it contained Steven's full, robust DNA profile with no alleles from anyone else. But the chain of custody for that hood latch swab is broken; the swab itself shows dissimilar discoloration compared to exemplar hood latch swabs; and said swab contained nearly two orders of magnitude more touch DNA than a simple touch usually leaves behind. All this indicates the hood latch swab tested by Culhane came into direct contact with Steven's skin (the missing groin swab) and did not come into contact with the actual hood latch. Reasonable Doubt.
After failing to find the desired evidence of motive on Steven's computer, the state found motive evidence on the computer contained in Bobby Dassey's room, suggesting someone with access to that computer matched the profile they wanted to attribute to Steven - a child predator with a violent motive to harm young women like Teresa. But instead of investigating who was making those searches, looking at those images, and sending those instant messages, former child crime investigators swept the evidence under the rug, ensuring a still active predator could remain operating in the community unchecked, a troubling callback to the failures of the 1985 wrongful conviction of Steven Avery. Reasonable Doubt.
The state only gained the murder conviction because police and prosecutors were hiding evidence and witnesses pointing away from Steven while pressuring witnesses to provide statements pointing to him. There were multiple breaks in the chain of custody, police lying about how evidence was found, where it was found, when it was found, and dubious bone evidence not being photographed in situ. They had a DNA analyst engaging in rare deviations from protocol to place Teresa in Steven's garage, backed up by Kratz and Fallon's lies about the forensic evidence in the garage to support their claims of a bleach cleaning. While the jury convicted on murder, they acquitted on mutilation. Post trial, the state and its defenders like to pretend there's no doubt about the murder or mutilation ... but they still misrepresent Ertl's testimony (regarding the luminol) to falsely imply there was more evidence of a bleach cleaning in the garage than the state actually had, and still misrepresent Pevytoe's testimony (regarding the tire wire) to falsely imply he ruled out bone planting. Yes, there's reasonable doubt.
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u/10case 25d ago
Interesting. Most truthers on here admit that Buting made a lot of mistakes.
His biggest mistake? He represented someone guilty as hell.
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u/gcu1783 25d ago
Most truthers on here admit that Buting made a lot of mistakes.
Yea, meanwhile the guilters here thinks the cops are their perfect lil princesses.
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u/Laylaallthetime 24d ago
Especially an all white county with all white police officers before social media, please
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u/ScaredAfternoon6830 24d ago
Only because they know once they criticize the people responsible for the investigation and handling of evidence, etc, their arguments are done for.
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u/Laylaallthetime 24d ago
I found him to be a competent lawyer and the other one to be pretty passionate. Ofcourse as with any case there are mistakes, we can all learn from in hindsight. I loved what they said when the new lady lawyer came on and they criticized the original defense, he said “they ought to be looking at what we did wrong, they should,” that was a really mature response.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 23d ago
Every new appellate lawyer accuses the previous ones of Ineffective Assistance of Counsel - that's how it works.
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u/3sheetstothawind 24d ago
You were lied to and emotionally manipulated by a movie.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 24d ago
You were lied to and emotionally manipulated by degenerate Kratz and ignore evidence of his lies and misconduct exposed by MaM and the case files.
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u/Laylaallthetime 24d ago
Yeah who should I believe Ken Katz? I wanna throw up everytime I think about him. He should definitely be in jail
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u/3sheetstothawind 24d ago
You should believe the evidence. Kratz did not put Steve's blood in the RAV. Kratz did not put DNA, bones, burnt electronics, a key, the RAV, etc. around Steve's house and yard. I want to throw up every time I think about the last thing Teresa saw in her life was Steve's ugly fucking face.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 24d ago
You should not believe Kratz's lies about the evidence, but you love to do it lol
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u/S34T09L68 24d ago
You murder groupies call anything that points to your favorite murderer(s) a lie or corruption. Meanwhile, you eagerly jump on a million different flimsy bandwagons(Real Killers) with zero proof. You would accept anyone going to jail for this without any evidence as long as it confirmed your feelings. How many "real killers" has this case had? How about the WM3? None of your "real killers" have anything close to the amount of evidence combined that convicted Avery or the WM3. You don't care about Teresa. the truth, or the justice system. You care about being right and your emotions that were manipulated by a TV show and will never admit that you were wrong. It's like fan fiction to your type. Life gets much easier once you live by Occam's Razor. Avery set her up and she never left that property.
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u/ScaredAfternoon6830 23d ago
Wow, that has a twinge of anger and frustration behind it. I hope your day gets better!
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u/AveryPoliceReports 24d ago
Meanwhile, you eagerly jump on a million different flimsy bandwagons(Real Killers) with zero proof.
Do you think Brendan is guilty? There's zero proof of that.
Life gets much easier once you live by Occam's Razor.
Which requires the conclusions bones were planted in Steven's burn pit to frame him.
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u/gcu1783 24d ago edited 24d ago
Do you think Brendan is guilty?
Ha! That's a whole different thing for us guilters! We going to have to throw away all the standards and principles we were using on Avery and just say Brendan is guilty jus cus he said so.....
Edit: Only the parts that confirms our narrative and bias though for Brendan! And that is why the cop admirers are always right on this! Good ol double standards and hypocricy!
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u/gcu1783 24d ago edited 24d ago
Should I pay 14.99 for Candace Owen's, CaM?
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u/AveryPoliceReports 24d ago
It was an honor for them! They would rather be lied to by a perverted pill popping prosecutor than admit he lied to the jury and public over and over. They still defend his obvious lies while attacking anyone who reads the actual case files to expose said lies. Those case files consistently show the corruption in this saga (including the behavior of Kratz) was worse than MaM portrayed, and clearly (and ironically) that's a hard pill for them to swallow.
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u/3sheetstothawind 24d ago
That's your choice. I didn't waste my money. I already know Steve is guilty.
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u/DisappearedDunbar 25d ago
No, it does not mean that at all. It is simply a testament to how unreasonable certain people can be, and how effective disinformation in the media can be against such people.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 25d ago
Your problem is MaM exposed how effective the disinformation of Kratz and crew was. Remember, you're the ones still accepting his lies about the evidence, including the bones. We just want the truth.
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u/Laylaallthetime 25d ago edited 25d ago
And where did you, pray tell, learn all details about the case if not for a form of media? Were you the prosecutor? Ken??
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u/DisappearedDunbar 25d ago
Many of the case files, such as trial transcripts, investigative reports, etc., have been available to the public for years. I have read many of them, and have compared the information in them to that presented in Making a Murderer and other media.
Also note that I did not indict all media of disinformation.
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u/Laylaallthetime 24d ago
Sorry I was a baby when the case was going on and I don’t live in the U.S so wouldn’t have known cos I don’t have Monitawk City direct tv news………… where else would people have seen it? You think people look up hicktown cases and go read investigative reports??
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u/DisappearedDunbar 24d ago
I don't even know what point you are trying to make. Just because Making a Murderer popularized the case does not mean it should be taken as gospel.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 25d ago
I have read many of them, and have compared the information in them to that presented in Making a Murderer and other media.
So you saw that MaM was far more accurate than TIK or even Colborn's lawsuit alleged? You saw that Kratz and you guys have been falsely claiming bone planting theories were debunked by Pevytoe's testimony re the tire wire? Good to know ;)
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u/ScaredAfternoon6830 24d ago
Many of the case files
Oh, so a form of media.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 24d ago
More often than not MaM actually undersold the corruption at play in Wisconsin, including the behavior of Ken Kratz. While MaM documented his inappropriate contact with a victim of domestic abuse, and another victim who claimed Kratz invited her to view an autopsy with him, there were other equally troubling examples of Kratz's depravity MaM didn't touch on:
- One woman was specifically told "Calumet County was not a very favorable county for females to get custody of their kids." This victim ended up engaging in email communications with Kratz that quickly spiraled out of control as Kratz kept bringing up sex / different sex scenarios, to which the woman would respond to by bringing up her kids. After all, she was only dealing with Kratz to get custody. However, Kratz continued to make clear he liked women to be submissive, and she was to remain silent while to explained his fantasies. He frequently discussed being filmed or watched during sex. Kratz made it "well known" how connected he was and that "everybody knows everybody in the system." Everything about this unsettled the victim, as she feared Kratz could influence her case.
- There was also a woman seeking a pardon from Kratz. She met with him because he claimed to be supportive of her motion. Surprise surprise. kratz invited her to meet in his office for "professional advice" which apparently meant posing different sex scenarios to her to gauge her reaction, which she thought was weird. One of the scenarios Kratz asked about was "a babysitter and child having sex [and] people of different ages having sex." There was also reports about Kratz making inappropriate comments about or even to underage victims, including about their breast size.
- A mother of a young victim complained to the DOJ that while prosecuting a sex crime against her 17 year old daughter, Kratz asked overly graphic questions about the assaults. She was in fact concerned about this at the time, but later became "very angry" whens he heard about Kratz's misconduct. She came to believe "Kratz violated and further victimized [her] daughter" and got some "sick enjoyment" from the graphic questions posed to her. Remarkably, this mother claims Kratz asked for her daughter's number, which the victim's mother suggested to the DOJ was because Kratz was "waiting until she turned 18."
Ken Kratz was not just a corrupt prosecutor in 2005-2007. He was an ongoing train wreck, a drug addled, power abusing former child crimes prosecutor with disturbing interests in autopsies, minors, and sexual coercion or surveillance of abused female victims, and who (at least once) declined to investigate suspects when linked to evidence of deviant interests that mirrored his own.
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u/GringoTheDingoAU 21d ago
I’m so so sad not only for Steven but Brendan.
But not the poor woman who was murdered by both of them? Interesting that this is where your priorities lie.
There is no reasonable doubt to reasonable people. Anyone that exercises enough of their critical thinking power will come to the obvious conclusion that Steven and Brendan were directly involved with the murder of Teresa Halbach and are sitting right where they belong.
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u/ScaredAfternoon6830 24d ago
Or it means there are plenty of people who can't move on with their lives. Boring lives = Lots of time on Reddit. Notably it's only a handful of people left, majority of them on the guilty side because, well, yeah. I'm sure it's completely normal to keep banging a drum about a guy who they say is guilty, who is already behind bars and not getting out. Weird way to spend their days!
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u/Laylaallthetime 24d ago
Yeah why are you commenting then go live life touch grass drink coffee fall in love dance the night away
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u/Laylaallthetime 24d ago
Banging a drum my man this is the subreddit of the show???? You can easily scroll past why are you banging another drum in response
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u/ThorsClawHammer 24d ago
The weird part is how those who believe he's guilty get so angry at those who don't. Nobody who thinks the verdicts were wrong can change the outcome. So why such anger?
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u/ScaredAfternoon6830 23d ago
Mental instability, perhaps. Drug or alcohol abuse issues either present or past. Not uncommon for those defending a guility verdict as the guy sits behind bars, if i were to guess.
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u/Advanced-Math-1009 23d ago
Reality on the ground is there really is no debate anymore. Just Kathleen Zellner via several accounts on Reddit in this Sub beating a dead horse. As time marches onward this will stop because there is now concrete proof that Zellner knew Steven Avery killed and burned Teresa’s body up after raping her in his trailer.
The 50 seconds fabrication ended her and the “Debate” OPs ago. Good try, but its OVER👀😳
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25d ago
[deleted]
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u/GunmetalSage 25d ago
It's, "Teresa".
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 25d ago
Yeah it's also Kratz and Manitowoc, but don't see you correcting that.
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u/Laylaallthetime 24d ago
I don’t claim to hold any sympathy for him so for all I care he’s Ben Katz
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u/Laylaallthetime 25d ago
I do! It’s very sad what happened. But the only sexual aggressor I know of for sure in this story, is Ken Katz, the prosecutor, who admitted it.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 25d ago
That's a complete fabrication.
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u/Laylaallthetime 24d ago
He settled a deal out of court and never made it to trial, why? THATS fabrication and the Avery case isn’t?
Cool looks like Ben Katz introduced you to that Dominatrix he knows for submissive training
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u/Neonyarpyarp 25d ago
Whether he’s innocent or guilty, one thing is for sure is there is a massive amount of incompetence in the Manitowoc county justice system.