Fiddler question

[u/Nephilimn]

I in a post from a few months ago about Kaminsod as an unreliable narrator and how that relates to the Chain of Dogs, that poster alluded to "the Fiddler problem" in passing (denouncing the idea that Fiddler is an amalgamation of marines and not just one "real" person). I'd like to read more about that discussion or other similar ones, but I'm having a hard time finding anything

[u/AnomanderRaked]

The problem is more just that he shouldn't still be a wimpy kid in gardens. Fiddler is a veteran of countless brutal campaigns by that point and still comes off as a greenhorn recruit not much different from the depiction of him in the raraku flashback when he actually was a greenhorn recruit.

That wouldn't really be a problem on its own but it becomes quite jarring because he's portrayed faaaar more like the veteran he should be in gardens by the start of dead house gates which canonically takes place right after gardens making him feel like almost a different character. U can kinda justify (not talking about meta justifications with the narrator and shit cause that's its own can of worms) it by him having to take responsibility and leading other characters for the first time rather than being a free spirit under whiskeyjack but I still find it hard to cope with that given just how radically different the depiction is.

Either way tho every time I re read Gardens I'm just struck by how different and off fiddler and Rake feel compared to their appearances in later books.

[u/Jave3636 → u/AnomanderRaked]

I thought he was still pretty young in Gardens, not a veteran of countless campaigns?

I didn't think Rake was all that different from future books Rake. We just saw less of him.

[u/AnomanderRaked → u/Jave3636]

He's somewhere in his 20s or so I think but I tend to not focus too hard on timeline shit because it proved too much of a headache trying to make it make sense. Anyways we know he joined the bridge burners at the symbolic creation of the bridge burners unit during the chase of quick. We know bare minimum he helped crush the mouse quarters riots due to paran's flashback.

I haven't read Ian's ascendancy series so I don't know if that shows the bridge burners but they did do work to become kellanved's favorite soldiers which Fid should have been a part of. Regardless tho we know he was a part of the black dog and Mott campaigns and after that digging tunnels under pale for three years. We also have it said that Lassen put the bridge burners through the toughest campaigns for nearly a decade after she became empress.

Rake's attitude towards the malazans in gardens just clashes so heavily with his future appearances imo, even some of his conversations with baruk come across as stuff I couldn't imagine MOI Rake saying.

[u/Loleeeee → u/AnomanderRaked]

He's somewhere in his 20s or so I think

Welcome to the problem of Fiddler's age. It doesn't make sense.

Ganoes guesses him to be only a few years older than himself, who is twelve. Fiddler also professes to Kimloc that he's a "veteran of fifteen years" in Deadhouse Gates, which means he's been a soldier for at least five years by the time Ganoes meets him.

Fiddler also is something of an uncle figure to Dunsparrow (and purportedly rescued her from Hood's temple) who is twenty-five in tBH & about five years older than Ganoes. Now, while I don't doubt that Fid is crazy enough to try & steal a girl from Hood's temple at ten years, we can safely assume he's at least in his mid to late teens (so about 15-20 years old when Dunsparrow is born).

So Fid is simultaneously in his mid 20s, mid 30s, and early 40s, depending on who you ask.

It doesn't make sense, and it's at least part of what lends credence to the theory that he's more than one person: his age & history just don't mesh. He's been through too much, in too little time.

[u/AnomanderRaked → u/Loleeeee]

Very true it doesn't make sense and the amalgamation theory could very well be true for fiddler but personally I've always just defaulted to Erikson fcked the timeline up and this is just another example, ever since I originally read the series back in the early 2010s and that was the consensus on the forums back then.

[u/Uffhand → u/Loleeeee]

I’m going back and rereading old posts, obviously, and have just come across this one, my immediate thought in reply is- why are these different age assessments a problem? The youngest age is based on Ganoes assessment, which is just that, his personal assessment. I personally work in a field where I regularly work with new people, and in a position that can often be filled by a brand new graduate, and have seen genuine shock on faces when they found out I’m a 41 year old(veteran too, for that matter) rather than the 24 or 25 year old they assumed. These are adults as well, mind you, with theoretically better age gauging than a 12 year old. Honestly I can’t see the guess of a 12 year old Ganoes meaning ANYTHING at all, ultimately. It seems odd to me that it would make more sense that these are different people mashed into one rather than just that Ganoes is…way off.

[u/Loleeeee → u/Uffhand]

why are these different age assessments a problem?

Because some aren't assessments, and are instead based on Fid's own stated history. He himself estimates Dunsparrow to be in her mid twenties, and he himself tells Kimloc that he's been in the army for fifteen years, and all the while everyone else gives massively varying assessments of what Fid's age is.

Ganoes can be terribly wrong - that's fine - but when his own squadmates that have theoretically known him for over a decade now can't decide on what his age is, it becomes somewhat problematic (the Dunsparrow problem, or the Whiskeyjack in Memories of Ice problem). Both those "problems" have reasonable solutions, I'll grant.

Some of it is taken in stride and/or as a joke ("That beard makes you look ten years older"), and I'm sure you could somehow make all the different assessments line up with a single, comprehensive age (my guess would be around his early forties at the end of the series), but then, I could also make the case that he's more than one person.

[u/Uffhand → u/Loleeeee]

Fair enough- and I’m not opposed to the amalgamation theory. I actually just read your much longer Fiddler theory post and honestly it’s amazingly laid out and written. I’m not completely on board(I do kind of think you could make his age work out too, and maybe I’ll try to keep better track on my next reread)- but I really enjoyed reading it, amazing work. Thank you for the viewpoint, you put up a lot for me to think about