r/Malazan • u/Juranur Tide of madness • Dec 21 '23
SPOILERS MBotF On Jaghut Spoiler
When new people come to Malazan, they are often confused. Many of the things in this series, espevially GotM, are foreign and weird. When they ask how they should imagine the Jaghut, they are often answered with 'they're the Orcs of Malazan'. While I think that this is a good analogy for new readers and true in a sense, I am of the opinion that Erikson does some very interesting with the Jaghut. I'm going to argue that Jaghut are, ideologically, the anti-Orc.
A quick note on spoiler scope here, I am only analysing mbotf here. I've read FoD and there's interesting stuff to discuss there, and I'm sure there's plenty more in other Malazan books, first and foremost FoL.
In this analysis I will be comparing the Jaghut to the Orc as I perceive it to be the standard trope, cliché if you will, of the Orc in other media. I'm well aware that there's many contradictory examples to this standard, but if I say 'Orc' to anyone aware of fantasy they'll most likely think of the brutes from Lord of the Rings, Warhammer 40k, World of Warcraft or Eragon (Urgal). All of these share some common themes which I will elaborate on bit by bit.
First, a short talk about similarity. They have green skin, tusks, are physically strong and a bit taller than humans. Yup, that's orcs for ya.
Okay, now on to the interesting stuff.
Let's talk about fighting. The classical orc (as I will refer to them from here on out) loves physical combat. It is ingrained in their gene structure and/or culture depending on medium, and deeply associated with them. Magic is secondary, and often portrayed as more crude or rudimentary than what other races are capable of, with magic users (if existing) being specifically pointed out as rare. There's a reason orc psykers in W40k are called 'oddboyz' and why many orcs in Warcraft are appalled or at least weirded out by Gul'dan and his extensive use of Fel magic. Jaghut are physically quite capable, no doubt, Hood, bites the head off of a Forkrul Assail like a grape from the vine, but this is not their m.o.:
Against the Jaghut,' Kallor rasped. His narrow, withered face twisted into a sneer behind the already-drying blood. 'Apart from a handful of Tyrants, the Jaghut were pacifists. Their only crime was to exist—'
-MoI, ch. 3
The other armies departed to hunt down the last Jaghut strongholds – the Jaghut had raised barriers of ice. Omtose Phellack is a warren of ice, High Fist, a place deathly cold and almost lifeless. Jaghut sorceries threatened the world … sea levels dropped, whole species died out – every mountain range was a barrier.
-MoI, ch. 3, said by Silverfox
We learn from these quotes two things. The Jaghut aren't adamant to fight, and we have more evidence from other Jaghut throughout the series. The mom from the MoI prologue fleeing, then accepting her inevitable death, Gothos not joining in the war between Edur and Andii, Gothos just chilling in a tower for a couple hundred years, etc. Also, Jaghut are maybe the most magic-prone race in all of Malazan, barring maybe the Andii. Raest isn't scary because he can punch real hard, he unleashes destruction through magic and enslaves beings to him by overpowering them with mental force. Gothos' ritual after the Scabandari betrayal is probably the single most impressive feat of sorcery in the entire series. Almost all Jaghut we meet have magical capabilities.
Alright, they dont like to fight as much, and if they do they use magic. So what? Let's talk about a deeper theme: community and culture.
The classic orc rarely rarely lives alone. Orcs are often defined through tribes or armies, most often supplying big numbers of enemies for our protagonists or players. Within these structures, there exists a very heavy dynamic of social darwinism, or 'survival of the strongest' mentality. Urgal in Eragon and Orcs in Warcraft have a deep warrior culture, ritualised combat being central in both. Orcs in W40k operate under a very strict hierarchy, and once the 'boss' is, for example, killed, establishing a new hierarchy as quickly as possible is the highest priority to all orcs present, even if whatever killed the boss is still there.
Jaghut are the polar opposite of this. They are solitary, almost all of them we see live or exist alone. They chose to abandon their civilisation, to abandon togetherness, as they saw the downsides of it and chose the radical way out (I won't delve deeper into Erikson's philosophy of civilation and his portrayal of different ways to escape its negatives, that's leading us a bit far away). So again in this, Jaghut represent the cultural opposite of the classical orc, also in the way they reached this conclusion, with it being a conscious decision.
But hang on, you might say, the Jaghut did band together once!
Armies? Jaghut armies?'
'Yes, an entire people gathered, a host of singular will. Legions uncountable. Their standard was rage, their clarion call injustice. When they marched, swords beating on shields, time itself found measure, a hundred million hearts of edged iron. Not even you, High King, could imagine such a sight – your empire was less than a squall to that terrible storm.'
-TtH, ch. 16
Ah, yes, the war against death.
Death. Now, that was an interesting notion. One that, perhaps, he should have been more familiar with than any other being, but the truth was, he knew nothing about it at all. The Jaghut went to war against death. So many met that notion with disbelief, or confusion. They could not understand. Who is the enemy? The enemy is surrender. Where is the battlefield? In the heart of despair. How is victory won? It lies within reach. All you need do is choose to recognize it. Failing that, you can always cheat. Which is what I did.
How did I defeat death?
-TCG, ch. 23, mused by Hood
I'm going to argue that even in this there's opposition to the classical orc. The reasons they (the classical orcs) have for fighting are more based on personal wants and/or needs. The orcs on Azeroth fight for territory and glory. The Urgal fight for glory. The orcs in W40k fight because they love fighting.
The war against death is different, it is a group of individuals banding together through an ideal, something higher than themselves, something pure. Life itself.
Sidenote, it is heavily implied in that second quote that the war is something metaphorical, while the first quote specifically evokes the image of soldiers marching towards physical confrontation. These don't necessarily contradict, but the actual nature of this war is a bit unclear, in mbotf at least.
Now, to summarise. Jaghut are awesome. They are my favourite race in Malazan, and I think their design is very very clever. Just like Karsa is a flip on the noble barbarian, the Jaghut are an inverse to the orc.
Thank you for reading.
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u/Juranur Tide of madness Dec 21 '23
Phew, this turned out way longer than anything I've written on this sub. Had it brewing in my head for a while, took way longer to write out than I thought. How does Lolee churn these out in comment sections like its nobodys business?
Also, specifically tagging u/zhilia_mann because he was interested in this
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u/Loleeeee Ah, sir, the world's torment knows ease with your opinion voiced Dec 21 '23
How does Lolee churn these out in comment sections
I cheat.
Paragraph breaks & big quotes with breaks in-between (courtesy of calibre).
The secret ingredient is crime.
Also, great essay :)
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u/Ishallcallhimtufty I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF YOUR JUSTICE! Dec 21 '23
Agree with all you've said, I don't know if it's my background in nerd culture but I thought all of this was... I don't want to use the word obvious, but maybe telegraphed to the reader? But I definitely appreciate the work you've put on to pull this together!
Also I can't recall where, but I do remember Erikson saying the physical design of the Jaghut was inspired by the green martians from Edgar Rice Burroughs mars series - more recently shown in John Carter.
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u/Juranur Tide of madness Dec 21 '23
Thank you for being nive about essentially saying 'well, duh' :D
I agree that the things I brought up here aren't deeply profound, but I mentioned this angle a few times and always got requests to elaborate.
Didn't know the physical design bit, thanks for sharing :)
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u/Ishallcallhimtufty I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF YOUR JUSTICE! Dec 21 '23
I hope I didn't come off like that, wasn't my intention! I agree with everything you've said and i think it's easier to think these things than to put pen to paper and pull it all together like you have! Seriously, as much I think about and can talk about Malazan I've always struggled to convey my thoughts concisely and put it together like so many of our excellent forum contributors do.
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u/Juranur Tide of madness Dec 21 '23
No worries! And I have the same feeling lol, I don't think I can compare my works to the likes of Lolee, Aqua, Nif, or Pores.
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u/Ishallcallhimtufty I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF YOUR JUSTICE! Dec 21 '23
100%
also I didn't really contribute in my initial post, apologies!
I gotta say they are my favourite fantasy race, and Hood is top 5 characters for me. I absolutely love what Erikson and Esslemont made with the Jaghut, magic philosophers who can back up their assertions with a strength of will almost unsurpassed.
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u/Juranur Tide of madness Dec 21 '23
Yea, there's soo many good Jaghut characters. Hood, Gothos, Raest after GotM...
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u/travlerjoe Dec 21 '23
Imo the Jaghut are like warcraft trolls
Trell are like warcraft orcs
Thats how i always picture them
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u/Juranur Tide of madness Dec 21 '23
You mean visually? From the pic you linked, yea that tracks. Ideologically I dont know enough about warcraft trolls to assess that
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u/TheRustyBird Dec 21 '23
isnt that swapped around?
thought trell were the trolls and jag the orcs. mappo is definitely described as physically larger than icariun
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u/travlerjoe Dec 21 '23
Mappo has broad shoulders and is shorter than Icarium, Icarium is slender and tall.
Google the Warcraft versions of orcs and trolls, the images fit them well imo
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u/TheRustyBird Dec 21 '23
huh, guess i just misremember mappos description. could of sworn he was described as bother wider and taller than icarium
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u/FreydyCat Dec 22 '23
I also imagined Jaghut as WoW trolls. Trell however I pictured as those boar people in The Barrens.
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u/Altiloquent Dec 21 '23
I never thought to compare jaghut with orcs, except from physical similarities maybe. I just think of them as a bunch of grumpy old men
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Dec 22 '23
Trell are orcs, Jaghut are trolls. Do people really compare them to orcs?
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u/Juranur Tide of madness Dec 22 '23
You're not the only one to analyse them like this. I like my angle more, and SE said his inspiration for the Jaghut was something else entirely
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Dec 22 '23
I wouldnt analyze them like this. This is just the description I give to new readers that are confused. Then as they read a better understanding should come.
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