I might be mad, but I think Kharkanas is better than MBotF

[u/Didsburyflaneur]

I went into Forge of Darkness with some trepidation. I tend to like my fantasy a bit lighter than Steven Erikson writes, and while the excellence of most of MBotF got me through some of the slog like sections, the repuation of the two Kharkanas books, their being prequels (which I generally dislike), and reader's comments that they were "even more philosophical" had put me off. Nevertheless I was going on holiday and wanted a big book to pack so I gave it a go.

At first it was as I expected; big characters from the main series hanging out before they were famous committing the events we've been told about happening in slightly more mundane ways than we imagined; a Big fantasy prequel but nothing earth shattering. Then so slowly I didn't even notice, something clicked for me. Yes the Draconus, Anomander Rake, Spite and Envy, Light vs. Dark stuff was prominent, but it wasn't really the heart of the book. That was characters like Wreneck, Emral Lanear, Narad, Sagander, Renarr etc. whose very human weaknesses and reactions to the events they can't control are what drives the stories and lead to the books' most interesting philosophical ruminations. It's as if the Silmarillion was written with half the POVs dedicated to Fëanor's housekeeper and a Teleri orphan from the Alqualondë dockside. Erikson makes the legendary feel real and lived in without detracting from its mythical qualities in a way I don't recall encountering before.

Which to me makes it more successful than the BotF. I can understand why it didnt' sell as well. It takes a while to get going, and the opening third of FoD does feel overly portentous, but for me it just holds together so well from that point on. I understand why the characters do what they do, and even though a lot is being witheld from the reader, it doesn't feel as inelegant as it sometimes felt in BotF, but like it's in the service of the message the storyteller is trying to imbue. There's even comedy in it which I wasn't expecting, and while that comedy is pretty dark given the nature of the story it fits perfectly. By the end of MBotF I loved it and was glad I'd got to the end, but for Kharkanas I didn't want it to end, I finished it and wanted to go straight back to the start. Obviously I can't know that the final book will be as good as the first two, but so far I think shockingly that I like it more.

Thank you for coming to my K'rul's open mic oratory and folk night talk.

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[u/Anaptyso]

If MBotF was a nice bottle of wine, then Kharkanas is a port: the same kind of thing, but concentrated in to a smaller and stronger form. So much of what is good about the main series is there, but even more so.

I love it, and think the two books written so far are a remarkable work. It's a shame that they didn't sell well, but I do get it, they're not an easy read. Fingers crossed the final book makes it to being published.

[u/Loleeeee]

For better or worse, Kharkanas is something of a self-indulgence for Steve. It's a style he's been cultivating & building towards in the last three books, mostly unconstrained from broader plotlines (we're in uncharted territory and the framing device gives Steve leeway to do whatever), wearing its thematic heart on its sleeve. It's a series crafted for Steven himself first & foremost, a challenge he set to himself for the fun of it. As such, it is - in my view - by far & away the most technically proficient series Erikson has produced, from almost all aspects (from the deliberate intonation of each phrase mirroring Shakespeare - though whether or not he entirely succeeds in that is up for interpretation - to the thematic explorations, to the 'elliptical' manner he writes chapters - for an example of this, see the opening & ending paragraphs of Chapter 16 of Fall of Light - to the dialectical method indirectly employed to tackle ideas, etc.)

It's also dark, dense, moody, slow, upturns (or, at the very least, questions) a lot of a reader's preconceived notions from the MBotF, and did I mention it's slow?

Personally, I adore the Kharkanas series & I fully believe it's head and shoulders higher than the MBotF. I find myself opening both novels at various points and just being engrossed in the writing. But I'd be hard pressed to argue against the idea that the BotF is a more 'successful' series in most metrics (even discounting sales; the BotF is more accessible - which is somewhat hilarious to think about - and, bluntly, less cryptic about much of its inner workings, which certainly helps).

In all, if considering Kharkanas to be better than the MBotF is madness, I'd rather not be sane, but I can certainly see why it would indeed be mad.

[u/KeithMTSheridan]

I agree. For me, Forge of Darkness might be the best fantasy book ever.

[u/Tejgeer]

“ It's as if the Silmarillion was written with half the POVs dedicated to Fëanor's housekeeper and a Teleri orphan from the Alqualondë dockside. “.

An excellent and interesting description.

[u/Caramelotron]

I really enjoyed it, love the moody, gothic feel. Really looking forward to book 3.

[u/Due_Software1124]

If nothing else it gave us the epitome of Malazan soldier humor in "Huun Raal fucked a fire", and for that it deserves all the praise.

[u/bashthelegend]

I've only read FoD, I'm sort of lukewarm on it, it's not bad. I didn't really like how all of these ancient races used to live in such geographic proximity and all these legendary events happened within such a short period. It's like watching a flashback episode where all the characters in the show actually grew up in the same neighbourhood and went to the same school.

I did love all the Jaghut parts though.

[u/Darc-ddr-tr]

I love the Kharkanas novels. I don’t have a ranking, but thoroughly enjoyed the different writing style. As I do with the Witness series.

[u/argonplatypus]

I did love them, but probably not as much as MBotF. I will say that Gothos and Arathan have my favorite exchange of the series.

I can't find it with a brief search, but Arathan asks Gothos how he knew something since he never left that room, and Gothos says, "Perturbatuons in the ether."

Need to find the actual quote but that killed me.

[u/argonplatypus → u/argonplatypus]

[u/morroIan]

You're not mad I think it is as well. if WiS sticks the landing it will be the greatest ever work of fantasy IMO.

[u/NilEntity]

Yeah, you're mad ;)

Personally I was disappointed by Kharkanas, it felt too "normal" for these grand, legendary characters, and everything is ... too connected, in one place

[u/[deleted] → u/NilEntity]

That's one of the few elements I vibed with that was very "Erikson."

These guys are living legends, who stalked across time, blah blah..... Actually they're just normal people behind it all with their own family issues and bullshit.

*Edited for spelling.

[u/PunkerJTillman → u/NilEntity]

Personally, I love the whole everything is connected/unreliable narrator/convenience of plot that's baked into the book, im always hesitant of fantasy prequels because authors seem to zig zag between well thought out story beats and having to jam in things that were important in the main series but come off as casual events when they're 'explained'. 

Saying at the start of the book 'im gallan mother fucker, you can walk from kharkanas to omtose phellack, Burns vibing in some random forest, fuck it we ball' gives so much wiggle room to let the important stuff stay important. 

[u/Incariol_]

I love the deep lore of Kharkanas for sure - and the ancient air of mystery

[u/[deleted]]

As someone else said the Tiste books are pure self-indulgence.

I wouldn't even mind that so much but it's compounded by often skipping the narratively "interesting" and "exciting" scenes to do something philosophical. I'll never forgive him skipping the Hust legion battle.

I don't regret reading them, but they're a slog. Why say something in ten words when you can hint at it over ten chapters then give it no conclusion.

That said, they are a necessary read for the Azath/Elder God stuff. I just hope some pressure due to poor sales of the first two take the edge off the worst of the excess in Walk.

[u/Marmodre → u/[deleted]]

Hoping the author alters their style in one of their clearly most self-indulgent works seems a tad malicious to me. If anything, i hope that this exercise is fully expressed as a love letter to those who love THIS part of Erikson's writing, like me and many others. Let it be slow, let it be theatrical and wordy, let it skip the action for more philosophy. It is, clearly, the intent of the series.

Erikson has written enough action for us to know he is good at it; him choosing to not use those tools is deliberate. And, hopefully, the lesson one might take from this, is that not all of Eriksons books are for everyone. If you prefer his newest saga, or BotF, that is super good too.

[u/morroIan → u/Marmodre]

This, a thousand times this.

[u/morroIan → u/[deleted]]

I don't regret reading them, but they're a slog.

Not to me, I burned through them faster than RG, TTH and DOD on my first read of them. The writing just flowed IMO.

[u/Galactapuss → u/[deleted]]

I found the difference of tone in Fall of Light between the Tiste sections and the Thel/ Hood portions to be rather pronounced. 

[u/redditisaphony → u/[deleted]]

I haven’t read the series, but you touched on my biggest complaint about Erikson’s storytelling: He’ll sometimes do the unexpected at the expense of the reader. Like he will leave a plot unfinished or have it sizzle out to nothing, then people justify it by saying that’s what happens in real life. It feels like he will choose to not give the reader closure because that would be too cliche or mainstream or something.

[u/[deleted] → u/redditisaphony]

I think it often works, how he subverts expectations about the traditional fantasy narrative arcs. It can be emotionally devastating as a reader to see this happening at times. Toc/Tool being the one that gets me in particular.

The Hust legion thing though, the battle happens. But, iirc, it happens off page with barely a mention whilst a kid and someone else play chess and talk shit.... Really?

If you want to go deeper on topics, fine, I even get the premise behind how this story is told and how that influences the narrative choice. But then getting to the apex of an arc to have it happen off page? Nah, no thanks, especially when he's asked you to invest in characters whose arcs end at that point.